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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:29 AM   #151
the8thark
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This just shows The other ship lots and don't sell lots?
This might or might not be the truth. But the info strongly hits at this.

But sales/shipment numbers mean nothing. Profits mean something. And Apple tablets have the highest profit margins. I'd like to know Apple's profit share of all tablets made from all vendors. I would guess that number would be very high.

In short this is not an "Apple is losing" article. This is more an "Apple is getting better in the important statistics and not in the unimportant ones" article.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:30 AM   #152
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So you honestly believe that retailers are throwing products OUT and then accepting more shipments? Or are you being sarcastic because I honestly can't tell.
and for then to do it with the same product over and over and over?

I do hope he was being sarcastic, otherwise, oh my
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:31 AM   #153
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Samsung had 325% growth in a single year, but yet according to Apple, Samsung tablets are not cool. Ok then...
Um that was judge who said that wasn't it? Not Apple. They just re-stated what the judge said.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:36 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Monkeydude View Post
After my 4th iPhone I switched to the Note II and it is superior to the iPhone 5 in every aspect. Apple is still great in Computers, but iOS is more than dated.
Opinion - I love my iPhone 5. To each his/her own.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:38 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Funkymonk View Post
Where are these other tablets? Literally every single tablet I've seen in public have been iPads. I have not seen a single Samsung, kindle fire, or other tablet in the subways or at school. Do these people shamefully use their non iPad tablets at home or something?


Just kidding, but seriously though, where are these tablets being sold?
To answer your question they are not being sold but given away. Rogers gave me a free Galaxy 10.1 for signing up to the PVR system which I was doing anyway.
The tablet will be a Christmas gift for my 8 year old.

I donít see many tablets in public. People say they donít want to be robbed. I use my ipad on the bus every day and see very few tablets and lots of e-readers.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:40 AM   #156
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Let's try to remember that this is only shipments and not actual unit sales. Shipments usual slip when products are backordered or product refresh!
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:41 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by ncaissie View Post
To answer your question they are not being sold but given away. Rogers gave me a free Galaxy 10.1 for signing up to the PVR system which I was doing anyway.
The tablet will be a Christmas gift for my 8 year old.

I donít see many tablets in public. People say they donít want to be robbed. I use my ipad on the bus every day and see very few tablets and lots of e-readers.
You really think Android tablets have been "given away" in that kind of quantity?

Better yet - do you honestly believe that iPads aren't given away as part of promotions either?

And lastly - do you believe that these companies giving away Tablets are not PAYING anything for them? After the tablet is purchased (ie - SOLD) - it doesn't matter how it gets in the hand of a user. The tablet has already been SOLD.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:44 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by soundbwoy View Post
Let's try to remember that this is only shipments and not actual unit sales. Shipments usual slip when products are backordered or product refresh!
If they are not sold, how they grow quarter after quarter?

I saw the same arguments time ago regarding Android smartphones and its amrketshare
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:06 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
So you honestly believe that retailers are throwing products OUT and then accepting more shipments?
Of course. Just not shipments of the exact same product that they threw out (or returned to manufacturer). Do you honestly think that every product that hits the shelves gets sold? Mobile manufacturers outside of Apple and Samsung are losing money for a reason.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:07 AM   #160
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Time for Apple to drop the price.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:08 AM   #161
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:13 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Of course. Just not shipments of the exact same product that they threw out (or returned to manufacturer). Do you honestly think that every product that hits the shelves gets sold? Mobile manufacturers outside of Apple and Samsung are losing money for a reason.
No. I don't believe every unit that is shipped gets sold which is why there are a lot of manufacturers who don't have great marketshare of products shipped.

I am amused (not by you) that people get so vigilant/upset/need to defend this kind of stat. So - Apple's share of shipments falls to 50 percent. As long as you can get one when you want one - does it really matter? Further - why do some poster here feel the need to contradict what the numbers are actually saying just because they aren't in Apple's favor - or when they are in a competitors.

The whole "us" vs "them" mentality is just stupid. But we've discussed this. There are many companies with different business models, products, etc that appeal to users. Everyone wins because they get to choose a product that fits them best.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:18 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Winni View Post
And then there is a huge market outside the US where people COULD afford the Apple products but simply REFUSE to pay more for less or they just don't want to buy a Walled Garden product.

It's hard to convince an average German to buy a Walled Garden Apple product when you can have an open Google product with better specs for less money. (And yes, Google's Play Store now also has over 750,000 apps, which is the same amount as Apple's AppStore has. The software ecosystem certainly isn't a problem anymore.)
If Apple is a walled garden what does that make Amazon? A fortress? Yet I don't see anyone mention lack of choice when they bring up a kindle fire.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:20 AM   #164
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Maybe because the kindle fire is priced right like the pos it is ? And the ipad mini is a expensive glorified pos same as the ecosystem ?!!
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:29 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
No. I don't believe every unit that is shipped gets sold which is why there are a lot of manufacturers who don't have great marketshare of products shipped.

I am amused (not by you) that people get so vigilant/upset/need to defend this kind of stat. So - Apple's share of shipments falls to 50 percent. As long as you can get one when you want one - does it really matter? Further - why do some poster here feel the need to contradict what the numbers are actually saying just because they aren't in Apple's favor - or when they are in a competitors.

The whole "us" vs "them" mentality is just stupid. But we've discussed this. There are many companies with different business models, products, etc that appeal to users. Everyone wins because they get to choose a product that fits them best.
I was just answering your question and trying to avoid that whole part of the debate.

I do think a much larger percentage of shipped Android devices get "thrown out" than iOS devices. Not everyone manages their supply chain as well as Time Cook is reported to. Not sure how significant that percentage is to the totals we see.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:33 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Funkymonk View Post
Where are these other tablets? Literally every single tablet I've seen in public have been iPads. I have not seen a single Samsung, kindle fire, or other tablet in the subways or at school. Do these people shamefully use their non iPad tablets at home or something?


Just kidding, but seriously though, where are these tablets being sold?
I travel a bit for work and as I inevitably have to sit around a lot waiting at hotels, airports, restaurants etc I look around at what technologies people use. I was just in London, India, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, and Hong Kong. I saw a lot of tablets, all of them iPads. A lot of children were using them as entertainment devices. A few people had Kindles but they were mostly Americans or British travelers/expats (Kindles aren't available in most countries). Of course my anecdotal evidence is skewed by the fact that people who are in airports/nice hotels/restaurants are more affluent and these folks probably prefer premium products? Initially my hypothesis was the majority of non-iPad tablets sold were the $99 and below variety you find in Beijing/Shenzhen electronic markets, but the latest marketshare report seems to indicate that it is Samsung and Asus who hold the greatest share of Android tablet sales. Only person I know who has a Samsung tablet got it as a gift when he bought a Samsung Smart tv, which is a sweet tv btw.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 10:10 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by camnchar View Post
The foot in the door for the Android tablets is the cheap 7 inchers. What worries me is when all those guys decide, "Hey, a tablet is useful after all" and want to upgrade, they'll choose an Android and not an iPad. Apple should have priced the iPad Mini a lot more aggressively. Sure margins take a hit in the immediate future, but long term it would have destroyed that foot that Android had in the door.

Now it's anyone's guess.
Looking back, when or which Android tablet you think made a D-Day landing? You know, the one tablet or the year that established a beachhead that Apple could not push back to the sea.

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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Time for Apple to drop the price.
Drop to how much?

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Originally Posted by minimo3 View Post
Of course my anecdotal evidence is skewed by the fact that people who are in airports/nice hotels/restaurants are more affluent and these folks probably prefer premium products?
There you go. People who bought Android remains in deleveraging mode and cannot effort overseas holiday, let alone flying. Some of us are yet to recover from recession and those Galaxy Tabs are just the ticket to replace old laptops.

Still, I am surprised how fast Chinese manufacturers moved in an turn the chic device into commoditiy in two years. It took Samsung three and a half years to commoditize smartphones. Chinese companies do the same to tablets in two.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 10:10 AM   #168
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The obvious answer to your question would be that they are throwing out old stuff and making room for new stuff. Hence the losses by most mobile manufacturers. I doubt this theory would apply to Samsung specifically though.

The part that I don't understand is how analysts can be so far off on Apple's shipments every quarter when they have actual historical numbers to base their estimates on. And, yet, they seem to remain confident in their estimates for all of these other companies that they have no reported numbers to reconcile with. How can they really track the "Others" share that is made up of a multitude of smaller companies for a total of almost 30% of the market?
Two words "Utterly ridiculous"
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 10:12 AM   #169
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Looking back, when or which Android tablet you think made a D-Day landing? You know, the one tablet or the year that established a beachhead that Apple could not push back to the sea.
The first Kindle Fire.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 10:15 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
I was just answering your question and trying to avoid that whole part of the debate.

I do think a much larger percentage of shipped Android devices get "thrown out" than iOS devices. Not everyone manages their supply chain as well as Time Cook is reported to. Not sure how significant that percentage is to the totals we see.
The thing to watch for is the final marked down to clean out a particular model. Every manufacturer do that (Apple do too). The question is marked down by how much and how many unit is still in the inventory at that point.

Every company has a different sales recognition and sales channel filling policy. Some company decide a "sales" is shipping a product to retailer warehouse. Other company decide that a sales is only when a customer pay for a mechandise. Some company think that they need to have 4 weeks of sales in the retail channel other than 12 weeks. Auto companies are famous for stuffing their channel to pop up their number. It is not uncommon for auto company to have 90+ days inventory in the dealer network for slow selling model.

Most companies in the space don't disclose their sell through rate (i.e. end user sales.. They have those number, they just don't let us know), inventory level in the sales channel, or gross margin on individual product (why should they let their competitor know?). But Apple has been pretty good about disclosing information. They talked about it in earning conference call several times. They only recognize sales when it is shipped to Carriers (ATT, Verizon, 3 etc, Carrier are responsible for those paying for those unit. If they need to run clearance and cut price, carriers will have to eat the loss). Any unit that ship to Apple store are not recognized as sales until a customer picked it up There is no discussion that I know on what they do with unit shipped to Target, Walmart etc. I assume it is the same policy as Apple store. Apple like to have 4 to 8 weeks of inventory in the resell channel.

Hedge fund and big investors make or loss hundred of million dollars by getting the sales through and margin number right for each of these companies. Individual like us really don't have enough information to argue whether the number is right or wrong and what is behind those number. We simply know too little. It is best to take the number for what it is worth. It is an estimation of the market share for a period of time by IDC. The number will change next Q and we will have another big debate.

Apple is doing well in Ipad Mini even though they priced it higher than the competitor. The end result is that Ipad mini outsell Ipad 3 launch in a much more competitive market. The are in allocation now so the initial launch number is mostly sell through. The implication is that they get the pricing right and they can ramp up the supply chain and expect to sell even more. According to this rumor, Apple has the capacity to build 5M Ipad mini a month and it looks like they have the demand for that now.. I expect the LTE version will outsell wifi model. It is important to note that Ipad mini is the lowest price Apple mobile device that come with 3G/LTE connection. It is hughly important to developing country where low price is a very important consideration. We can easily see a 25-30m ipad2+Ipad3+Ipad 4+Ipad mini in 4Q and may be more in 1Q13.

The market share issue is an interesting discussion on ecosystem but not for company profit. And I can't see developer wanting to build more Android tablet apps simply because Google sell more Nexus 7 or 10. The same consumer that is attracted to Nexus 7 or 10 don't want to pay for their apps. And that is the bottom line for app developers.

http://www.padgadget.com/2012/09/18/...inese-factory/

Foxconn and Pegatron are expected to assemble 5 million iPad minis a month. While 5 million iPads minis a month may seem like a large number, only time will tell if demand for the smaller iPad ó which isnít even officially on the market yet ó will outstrip supply.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 12:28 PM   #171
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Shipments are almost meaningless...

...in my opinion it's more instructive to analyze which devices people are using to access the web and assessing marketshare in that manner.

Also one must keep in mind that some mobile vendors have a different business model in which tablets are sold for a low margin or even with a loss. The Kindle is filled with advertising and is engineered as a selling machine - it's essentially a catalog for Amazon's services. Apple's business model is to make money and they have, and continue to do, very well at that.

I'd take any 'Apple is faltering' arguments with a grain of salt until you see their revenue and profits begin to diminish (remembering to take into account seasonal changes and product release cycles). In a poor economy, really no one has accomplished more -- not in any industry.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 01:14 PM   #172
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No wonder, Apple understood that people want Apps, so they made the App Store eco system. But Apple failed to understand that people also want cheap(er) Products.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 01:39 PM   #173
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Two words "Utterly ridiculous"
Why do you think it is "utterly ridiculous" to assume that not all products that are shipped into the channel are eventually sold? Seems like common sense to me.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:59 PM   #174
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What would stop me?

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Originally Posted by swagi View Post
Well...try to get your iTunes movie content up on the big screen without an Apple TV.
Just curious what is stopping me from that?
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 03:14 PM   #175
poloponies
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Originally Posted by Radio View Post
This is great news my fellow apple fans.


Apple needs to be more competitive and hopefully we will see some price drops
The only number that matters is Apple's growth in sales. It's inevitable that Apple's share of the market will fall, but it's a growing market. Apple will only be hurt when Apple's sales drop.
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