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Old Nov 6, 2012, 05:41 PM   #26
nutjob
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Originally Posted by Bendrix View Post
A lot of what makes something "correct" in English has to do with precedent. What famous writings contain certain usages and what is their frequency of appearance in the literature? The second has to do with logic. Is it logical to say something a certain way? Most other "rules" you will find exceptions to, and many of the rules we were taught are just plain wrong, famous examples being "don't end a sentence in a preposition" or "don't split an infinitive." And a lot of the prescribed rules have as much to do with the grammarian's preferences as anything else. Fowler, whom you mentioned, is famous for having had a lot of weird personal peeves, which can be found all over the place in his "Modern English Usage."
Nope. Current usage determines correctness. English is a dynamic evolving language. It changes all the time and isn't based on fixed or historical vocabulary or rules.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 05:51 PM   #27
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You do realise that much of 'American English' is the old way of spelling things, and British English is the one that's changed, i.e. 'wrong'?
You mean it used to be 'donut'? Sigh... I learn something new everyday....
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 05:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by peterh988 View Post
There's no such thing as American English. There is English, and there is wrong.


Or as the TV show QI explained a few weeks ago, 'ise' is the Oxford way (as in Oxford English Dictionary) 'ize' is the Cambridge spelling.
Ah, a lovely post.

It is, of course, entirely possible that the Cambridge referred to is in the New World, rather than the Old......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsWelshy View Post
You mean the correct spelling for the language that we created for you to bastardise and butcher?
Guffaws happily -

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Originally Posted by gorskiegangsta View Post
That's the nature of the beast. English was not created from scratch. It evolved and morphed through the years.
It evolved, adapted, adopted and added and discarded words as needed....the sign of a very successful language, really.

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Originally Posted by JAT View Post
Was this supposed to be irony? Since modern English is basically a bastardized melting pot of many languages, both dead and current. Far more "foreign" words exist in English than any other language.
This is because English has no issue, or problem, with acquiring fresh, or new, vocabularies as needed. Sometimes, these new terms, or words, are used to describe new things, ideas, or concepts. Sometimes, while new words are added to the language, curiously, the older words are not necessarily replaced, but are instead refined in how they are used. This upshot of all of this is that it gives English an extraordinarily rich, nuanced and precise vocabulary.

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Originally Posted by timcullis View Post
The reverse, actually. -ize is the Oxford Dictionary standard, whilst Chambers, the other main British dictionary source, is -ise. Both versions come ultimately from Greek but -ise is of French/Latin influence, whilst -ize comes from German roots.

Fowler's "The King's English" (and you can guess how old this is) promotes -ize and was extensively referred to by Winston Churchill when berating his staff on their use of English. But then Churchill was half American. LOL.

There's a few words that even in the US have an -ise suffix such as compromise and exercise.
Fascinating. (Must check that for myself, when I can tear myself away from the coverage of the US election....)

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Originally Posted by nutjob View Post
Nope. Current usage determines correctness. English is a dynamic evolving language. It changes all the time and isn't based on fixed or historical vocabulary or rules.
While it 'changes' all the time, and is a 'dynamic evolving language', it is still based on an evolving standardised language.

Ooooooh. I love threads such as this........
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 06:24 PM   #29
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Ooooooh. I love threads such as this........
Yes, very humourous.

Like a small lemon sorbet to cleans the pallet between courses, what with the goings-on today.

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Old Nov 6, 2012, 06:29 PM   #30
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There is the same exact debate between the French and French-Canadians Quebecers (the latter being criticized for "ruining the French language", while it can be argued that Quebec French is closer to the 17th century language). The only proper way I see to completely end this debate is to classify varieties of both languages as mutually intelligible dialects.

Or, you know, everyone can grow up and stop losing time on such futile issues
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 06:39 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by nutjob View Post
Nope. Current usage determines correctness. English is a dynamic evolving language. It changes all the time and isn't based on fixed or historical vocabulary or rules.
Have you seen how people currently use the language?
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 06:45 PM   #32
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There should not be a 'British English', there should be 'English' and 'American English'

We speak the correct language, you yanks decided to add stupid letters in places, pronounce things wrong and change meanings of seemingly random words.

It annoys me that this is MacRUMORS not MacRumours, but alas, it is an American website.

The real kick in the teeth is that even though our devices know we are in Britain, we still have to change it from the default to British English, really hope Ive influences a change of this!
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 08:54 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by MattZani View Post
There should not be a 'British English', there should be 'English' and 'American English'

We speak the correct language, you yanks decided to add stupid letters in places, pronounce things wrong and change meanings of seemingly random words.

It annoys me that this is MacRUMORS not MacRumours, but alas, it is an American website.

The real kick in the teeth is that even though our devices know we are in Britain, we still have to change it from the default to British English, really hope Ive influences a change of this!
Typical poms, think they still rule the waves... or anything. The British Empire died a long time ago. There is no "correct" English, and no-one owns it. Meanwhile the English are entirely irrelevant.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:21 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by kaldezar View Post
in other words butchered and bastardised?
Nope.

In other words, English is derivative of older languages and dialects such as Latin and Greek, which, in turn, are derivative of even older languages and dialects such as Aramaic and Hebrew, which, in turn, are derivative of still older languages and dialects such as Sumerian and Phoenician. That's the nature of human communication advancement techniques (through elements such as alphabet and spoken language).
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:21 PM   #35
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Meanwhile the English are entirely irrelevant.
Empire or not, England is still one of most powerful, well respected countries in the world. You got to at least give them credit for being as close to directly responsible for what what we currently think of as The Western World as any one country.

Their food does suck, though. They can't even make mac 'n cheese without making it some noodly, snotty mess. I mean how they hell does anyone **** up mac 'n cheese? It's noodles. And cheese. You can't get much more simple than that!

Just...errggh...gawww....okay. My PTSD is kicking in. Gotta quit thinking about English food. It takes me to bad places.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 01:09 AM   #36
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It's all probably France's fault.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 02:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by MattZani View Post
It annoys me that this is MacRUMORS not MacRumours, but alas, it is an American website.

The real kick in the teeth is that even though our devices know we are in Britain, we still have to change it from the default to British English, really hope Ive influences a change of this!
Tried going to www.macrumours.co.uk?

I love that Ive refuses to bow to pressure and spell aluminium incorrectly. After all, half the other blooming elements end in ium - calcium, caesium, etc. We don't say calcum or cesum, do we?
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 03:04 AM   #38
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America should pay England royalties for the use of the English language.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 03:44 AM   #39
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 03:55 AM   #40
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Since we were the ones who came up with the damn language, I'd say whatever we say goes.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:19 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
They can't even make mac 'n cheese without making it some noodly, snotty mess. I mean how they hell does anyone **** up mac 'n cheese? It's noodles. And cheese. You can't get much more simple than that!
What's a 'mac 'n cheese' old chap? I really have no idea what you are talking about. A crumb of cheese in my computer keyboard perhaps?

As Jaffa Cake will no doubt agree - all this foreign food (except curries, they're not foreign) sounds suspiciously French to me.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 04:47 AM   #42
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You aint speaking the Queen's English mate unless you're using words long enough that would make a man's family jewels rise up in anticipation for your literary ******ry.

Quod erat demonstrandum, the longest word in the thread so far is in this sentence.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 05:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by jeremy h View Post
As Jaffa Cake will no doubt agree - all this foreign food (except curries, they're not foreign) sounds suspiciously French to me.
I can't say I'm at all keen on curry, but I'd rather tuck into a plateful of that than scoff aerosol cheese.

This probably marks me out as a dangerous communist.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 05:32 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by MorphingDragon View Post
You aint speaking the Queen's English mate unless you're using words long enough that would make a man's family jewels rise up in anticipation for your literary ******ry.
Absolutely - when visiting this sceptre'd isle, if you find yourself in a restaurant that serves food in a conveniently quick manner one should never abbreviate to Americanism's such as 'burger' - I would suggest a request for a 'beef sandwich' would be far more appropriate.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 07:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by sviato View Post
Also don't like when people from England use "a" instead of "I", e.g. "why should a do this?"
Why do Americans always say "then" when they meant to say "than"? That's something that I keep seeing online.

(and when fellow Brits say "of" where it should be "have" actually makes me feel a little sick)
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:22 AM   #46
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Why do Americans always say "then" when they meant to say "than"? That's something that I keep seeing online.

(and when fellow Brits say "of" where it should be "have" actually makes me feel a little sick)
It's pronounced the same way, or very very close. As to why they write it, well they're idiots. I'm convinced that half of the population doesn't know how to use their/they're/there or your/you're correctly.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:47 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by nutjob View Post
Typical poms, think they still rule the waves... or anything. The British Empire died a long time ago. There is no "correct" English, and no-one owns it. Meanwhile the English are entirely irrelevant.
Unfortunately your relatives were taught some English, before we banished them with all the other criminals to your pitiful boring continent

As the previous poster pointed out, there is English and US English
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 08:51 AM   #48
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Why do Americans always say "then" when they meant to say "than"? That's something that I keep seeing online.
Or that they could care less when it should be couldn't care less. If you could care less, it implies you do care, which is at odds with the sentiment expressed.

Don't even get me started on flashlights which don't flash unless you keep switching them on and off.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 09:36 AM   #49
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I'm convinced that half of the population doesn't know how to use their/they're/there or your/you're correctly.
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Old Nov 7, 2012, 09:36 AM   #50
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I'm convinced that half of the population doesn't know how to use their/they're/there or your/you're correctly.
I think that goes for all English speakers.

Another one that bothers me is "I need to loose some weight". It's lose, not loose. You loose your trousers when they are not done up tightly enough. Or if you lose some weight.
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