iPad Mini Display Judged 'Very Capable', But Falls Short of iPad and Android Competitors

[jasonbaum]

Hope this isn't a repost but here's a piece from Cult of Mac arguing not to buy a mini until the second generation comes out.

Article Link

[jsw]

Originally Posted by jasonbaum

Hope this isn't a repost but here's a piece from Cult of Mac arguing not to buy a mini until the second generation comes out.

Article Link

I agree with their points, but several co-workers have the Mini and all love it, and they are all well-versed in Apple products (rMBPs, iPad3, iPhone 5, etc.).

I'm sure the next version will be even better, and I have my reservations about the cost of this one, but there's no doubt in my mind that it's an excellent product.

[sneaky butcher]

Originally Posted by nuckinfutz

Every publicly traded company is here to make money. We can make all the claim of sub-standard we want but where the rubber meets the road is "Did the customer purchase the product?"

If people don't like something they don't buy it. Especially if the product is more than $300.

I see you guys on here all the time fabricating your pissing and moaning but the reality is if Apple's doing something wrong they aren't hitting their sales numbers. The problem for you guys is they HAVE been hitting their numbers and improving sales so I'm going with what the data tells me and that is consumers are happy with their purchases.

if apple thought everything was peachy they wouldn't be getting rid of the dude that was head of ios development.

They're also rapidly losing market share in tablets now there's some decent competition. Retaining those customers who have a lot of money invested in apples eco system is easy. Its new customers apple will struggle to get these days

[apolloa]

Originally Posted by xofruitcake

If you look at the list of new entrants to the tablet market, we know that ASUS (Nexus 7) and Amazon are selling their tablet at break even or a loss. And we don't know if Samsung is making any money on their Tab. So the question is whether Apple want/need to expand market share if it means break even or losing money?

In Apple's case, Ipad 2 and Ipad 3 make anywhere between 23-32% gross margin (the number came out from Samsung trial document. Google and you will find them). Apple Corporate SG&A + development + tax is about 17.5% of sales (27.43B SG&A+R&D+TAX out of 156.5B sales) in fiscal year 2012. So Ipad 2 and Ipad 3 is making 5.5% to 14.5% of sales net of all expense and tax. Ipad mini has even worse gross margin. The base unit look to be at best make very little money. The high end unit (32G, 64G, LTE version) will do much better.

Google and Amazon all has similar cost structure and at all likelihood losing money on each tablet they sell now. They are willing to lose money to gain market share but it is not a substainable strategy. All Apple should do is to wait out the below cost competition and see how long and how much money Google and Amazon is willing to loss to expand their market share. This 4Q sales number is going to be fascinating. It will flush out the size of low end tablet space. My bet is that Nexus 7 and Amazon fire HD sales is being affected by Ipad mini. Surface does not seem to be playing any major role in the holiday sales at this point. So the tablet space is all about IOS vs low cost Android. 50/50 is pretty good in my book if the top 50% maker (Apple) all the money while the bottom 50% of the tablet makers lose money. My guess is that if we look at profitable tablet market, Apple probably has 80-90% of the market share.

Google (and Amazon to some extent) is destroying the profitability of Android tablet market. do you see any other Android tablet announced for this Christmas season? Google contract out the building of Nexus hardware (Nexus 7 to ASUS and Nexus 10 to Samsung). I wonder who can build the next Nexus for Google next year? Who has money to invest in building a better Android tablet given that they don't have any product in this Christmas season. For Android Tablet, we are going to be down to ASUS and Samsung next year.

http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/viewer?ac...8&xbrl_type=v#

http://www.morningstar.com/earnings/...=AAPL&pindex=4

The iPad Mini has the full iPad experience and we priced it aggressively at $329, delivering incredible value to our customers. Its gross margin is significantly below the corporate average. So, in summary, we expect our gross margin to decline by about 400 basis points

So, in one sentence you proclaim you don't know if Samsung is making money, an utterly flawed comment in itself considering they mark up their devices the same as Apple which a simple Google would tell anyone, then you proclaim Google and Amazon are loosing money? No they are not, why are people so fixated on this ridiculous argument, it's an entirely baseless argument, Google are not loosing money on the Nexus, they make a tiny profit on each one and have stated they will make money for the apps sold through the Play store, Amazon have publicly stated very clearly it is loosing money but that's it's entire business plan as it will make money on it's services and apps, which has worked pretty damn well so far this year!

Your argument reads, lets see if Amazon and Google go bust, then we'll see who's right? And you choose to ignore the plain facts. Amazon took a big bite of the market share with it's first device, the Nexus 7 has been running out of stock an awful lot. Neither company is going bust anytime soon and neither company is 'damaging the Android market' either

I think your so fixated on Apple and it's pricing, you have no clue about what bargains the Android world has been offering for ages now. All Google and Amazon have done is found a common ground to that. It's like the stupid argument people make proclaiming Apple makes no money from it's apps? The 30% cut of every single app that is sold or every single in app purchase that is made, from the over 35 billion apps sold so far.

Regardless, everyone on here will be singing Apple's praises next year when the Retina model with A6 SOC comes out... because if they don't do that they will be seriously weak. They should have dropped the iPad 2, given the Mini better build quality a retina screen and A6 SOC and charged a bit more for it on this release regardless of future models.

[nuckinfutz]

Originally Posted by sneaky butcher

if apple thought everything was peachy they wouldn't be getting rid of the dude that was head of ios development.

They're also rapidly losing market share in tablets now there's some decent competition. Retaining those customers who have a lot of money invested in apples eco system is easy. Its new customers apple will struggle to get these days

Wait a minute. You think that people that are buying Nexus 7 and Kindle HD are going to turn around and start spending a bunch of money on the ecosystem? Unlikely. Amazon and Google are shipping product at or around cost. Like leaving a piece of cut fruit on the table ...is it valuable to attract a bunch of fruit flies?

I'm unconvinced that a $199 tablet buyer has any plans to spend a significant amount on media.

[jon3543]

Originally Posted by jsw

I think you're confusing ppi with pixels. The ppi numbers are constant on any display; they're innate.

I'm not confusing anything, and of course PPI is innate. I've been calling it "effective resolution" and very clearly describing the scenario in which the analysis applies.

The number of pixels used to draw a character can vary, yes.

Which is the whole point. I don't know why you want to argue about this. There's no escaping the fact that when viewing a web page or other document scaled to fit horizontally, despite the Nexus 7 and Kindle Fire HD having 216 PPI vs the Mini's 163 PPI, a 1.33x advantage, their smaller size causes them to render characters with only a 1.04x advantage in portrait mode, as if their effective resolution were only 170 PPI. So they have only a very small fidelity advantage for rendering glyphs, and it's probably at best a wash, as their text is physically smaller than on the Mini, which detracts from readability.

It's not as simple as 216 > 163. You have to consider the size of the screen, what it's displaying, and how it's displaying it.

I've noted elsewhere that the text in Safari looks pretty bad at small sizes on web pages like cnn.com, with artifacts such as differing weights of letter stems in words like "still". That's the real problem relative to the other tablets IMO, not the resolution, but as I keep saying, problems like that go away when you rotate to landscape or zoom to get the text to a sane size, with links you can actually touch with some accuracy. It doesn't occur at all in iBooks with its larger text. The other tablets also look pretty bad when displaying sites like cnn.com and need to be rotated into landscape or zoomed, but if you ignore the intercharacter spacing problems the Kindle Fire HD has, Safari on the Mini does look the worst in portrait mode with no zooming. It doesn't have to, though, and it would be wrong to ascribe it to 216 > 163, because that is not the reason, and 216 is really 170 anyway in this context.

[Jetson]

Originally Posted by Prallethrin

Don't know about the A6X, but as for the screen it's probably due to power consumption.

The iPad3/4's screen, while high quality, is a power hog. The iPad mini's reduced dimensions and weight means less space for battery, so it's safe to assume Apple revert to using iPad 2 screen technology.

For Retina iPad mini, we would probably have to wait for Sharp to get IGZO up and running at a higher capacity.

Yeah, you are probably correct.

The slimmer iPad Mini has a smaller/thinner battery, so power consumption probably is a big consideration.

[xofruitcake]

Originally Posted by apolloa

So, in one sentence you proclaim you don't know if Samsung is making money, an utterly flawed comment in itself considering they mark up their devices the same as Apple which a simple Google would tell anyone, then you proclaim Google and Amazon are loosing money? No they are not, why are people so fixated on this ridiculous argument, it's an entirely baseless argument, Google are not loosing money on the Nexus, they make a tiny profit on each one and have stated they will make money for the apps sold through the Play store, Amazon have publicly stated very clearly it is loosing money but that's it's entire business plan as it will make money on it's services and apps, which has worked pretty damn well so far this year!

Your argument reads, lets see if Amazon and Google go bust, then we'll see who's right? And you choose to ignore the plain facts. Amazon took a big bite of the market share with it's first device, the Nexus 7 has been running out of stock an awful lot. Neither company is going bust anytime soon and neither company is 'damaging the Android market' either

I think your so fixated on Apple and it's pricing, you have no clue about what bargains the Android world has been offering for ages now. All Google and Amazon have done is found a common ground to that. It's like the stupid argument people make proclaiming Apple makes no money from it's apps? The 30% cut of every single app that is sold or every single in app purchase that is made, from the over 35 billion apps sold so far.

Regardless, everyone on here will be singing Apple's praises next year when the Retina model with A6 SOC comes out... because if they don't do that they will be seriously weak. They should have dropped the iPad 2, given the Mini better build quality a retina screen and A6 SOC and charged a bit more for it on this release regardless of future models.

I take it that you never look at the tear down cost of a nexus 7 and Kindle fire HD? And when you add into manufacturer profit, warranty cost, manufacturing inefficiency (i.e. broker parts, rework, QA problem), shipping cost, marketing cost, design cost,corporate overhead and reseller profit. What do you think is the net margin for Google or Amazon?

I don't think I ever claim that Amazon and Google will go bust. But as a public company, there is a limit of how much money they are willing to loss in a particular product. They are buying market share, but for how long is the question. The rest of Android tablet makers are in trouble.. No one else will step in now, so in essence Google just buy up others Android maker market share. At the end Google benefit by the number of Android tablet out there. For every Google search customer do on IOS device, Apple get a cut of the profit and Google would like to keep that profit. But if the effect end up driving other Android maker out of the market, it is not help Google cause.

And at some point Google and Amazon will have to put together their own design team. And the risk will be much more. Just look at how Google deal with Motorola. Instead of building up Motorola, they are doing massive layoff.. I think that said something about Motorola and Google intention on how much they will invest in hardware business.

You know why people don't focus on Apple Itune business? Because it is so small compare to Iphone and Ipad business. This is from Apple 2012 10K (annual report) p 30. 2012 Iphone revenue: 80.47B, Ipad revenue 32.424B, and Software & service (that is Itune and everything else) 3.459B.

Have you ever step back and ask why Nexus 7/10 and Kindle fire HD has to price so low compare to Ipads? Lower price to gain market share is not a sign of product strength. There is market share which IDC and other market research company collect information on. But as a business, they need to make money to stay in business. I don't see Android tablet making much money any time soon.

Posters in McRumor are not the problem for Android. It is the buying public. If they receive Android ecosystem better, Google and Amazon can price their tablet higher. As it is now, they can only sell at rock bottom price and it is not because poster like us that can influence the public. It is the review in Times, Business week, LA times, word of mouth, and hand on experience that sell the product..

As for your wish list A6 & retina, I don't think you have any idea of what putting retina in Ipad mini mean. It will be a product weight over 1lb (as oppose to 0.68lb) and over $400 (because of the additional back light. You know they need additional back light, right?). I don't think I want that product until Sharp can come through with IGZO display which eliminate the back light and weight problem.

By the way, I am not an Apple fanboy. I own a Samsung infuse, and Ipad 3, a window PC, and a window laptop. I will probably buy a LTE IPAD mini. However, I am an Apple investor and made my year on trading Apple already. So I am familiar with the strength and weakness of Apple products (yes there is potential problem in Apple product in 13 in Iphone side. But it lools to me Apple is in the clear sailing in the tablet side for at least another year especially if Sharp can come through.)




http://allthingsd.com/20120711/googl...eardown-finds/

The early verdict, shared exclusively with AllThingsD, is that the low-end eight gigabyte model of the Nexus 7, which sells for $199, costs $151.75 to build.
The higher-end 16GB model, which sells for $249, costs $159.25, the difference being the cost of the memory chips inside.

http://launch.co/story/amzn-kindle-f...wn-estimate-of




http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...411355d10k.htm

[jsw]

Originally Posted by jon3543

It's not as simple as 216 > 163. You have to consider the size of the screen, what it's displaying, and how it's displaying it.

No, really, it's as simple as 800x1280 > 768x1024. You either get more fidelity, or you get more characters. I have no issue reading the smaller fonts on the 7 in portrait mode, for example, so I see more, period.

However, as I've granted, 4:3 is a better ratio than 16:10 when browsing, and I also think that the Mini is as good as or better than the Nexus 7 for web browsing for that reason. There are exceptions: I can see 28-29 lines of forum spy, for example. I doubt I could see that many on the Mini. Still, that's a specific case, and I fully grant that the browsing experience on a Mini is arguably better. I think the browsing experience on my 1st-gen iPad is better from a layout point of view, and the Mini has the same layout.

However, I completely disagree with your 170 ppi argument - the smaller characters aren't an issue for me, and so I'm getting the "true" ppi.

[jon3543]

Originally Posted by jsw

However, I completely disagree with your 170 ppi argument - the smaller characters aren't an issue for me, and so I'm getting the "true" ppi.

What you mistakenly believe doesn't alter the math. HTH.

[jasonbaum]

How long was it before Apple lowered the original iPhone price?

I would expect the same thing to happen with the mini. I just think the pricing is so misaligned based on the competition that there will have to be some adjustments to drive holiday sales.

[slughead]

Originally Posted by nuckinfutz

Every publicly traded company is here to make money. We can make all the claim of sub-standard we want but where the rubber meets the road is "Did the customer purchase the product?"

If people don't like something they don't buy it. Especially if the product is more than $300.

I see you guys on here all the time fabricating your pissing and moaning but the reality is if Apple's doing something wrong they aren't hitting their sales numbers. The problem for you guys is they HAVE been hitting their numbers and improving sales so I'm going with what the data tells me and that is consumers are happy with their purchases.

That was the whole point of my post. And by the way, this is a forum to talk about hardware software, so I think it's appropriate conversation to discuss whether or not hardware/software sucks. In this case: I think the iPad mini is overpriced and sucky.

[xofruitcake]

Originally Posted by jasonbaum

How long was it before Apple lowered the original iPhone price?

I would expect the same thing to happen with the mini. I just think the pricing is so misaligned based on the competition that there will have to be some adjustments to drive holiday sales.

??? does the statement even pass the smell test? If a product is on allocation, why would Apple need to cut the price? The analyst projection for 4Q sales is anywhere between 5m to 8m sales. And it looks like Apple already has 2 to 2.5M sales in the first 3 days. And they only launched in 34 markets... There are still 64 markets that they can launch the product if they match the 100 markets drive in 4Q for phone 5. No one will cut the price of the product if it is supply constrained. That is business 101..

----------

Originally Posted by slughead

That was the whole point of my post. And by the way, this is a forum to talk about hardware software, so I think it's appropriate conversation to discuss whether or not hardware/software sucks. In this case: I think the iPad mini is overpriced and sucky.

And customers are buying it.. What does it mean? I guess the IOS econsystem and the design of the tablet overcome the inferior spec. Any guess as to what Nexus 7 and Kindle Fire HD sales is like after Apple announced Ipad mini? I don't think the group managing their respective tablets in Google and Amazon are not too happy now..

[slughead]

Originally Posted by xofruitcake

And customers are buying it.. What does it mean? I guess the IOS econsystem and the design of the tablet overcome the inferior spec. Any guess as to what Nexus 7 and Kindle Fire HD sales is like after Apple announced Ipad mini? I don't think the group managing their respective tablets in Google and Amazon are not too happy now..

What I said: Apple's out to make money, this thing makes money, therefore this thing has done its job. However, it sucks

What you said: Nope, the only definition of "sucks" is "didn't make money"

So basically you just buy whatever's popular because it has to be good? You'll fit right in here!

[alexgowers]

If you have ever seen the kindle fire HD screen you know this is crap. I'm sorry but the ipad mini screen is the resolution it is to avoid fragmentation and make the 250,000 quality apps work great and look great.

All other android tablets are SMART PHONE APPS not tablet apps and look and work poorly.

There is no point having a high res screen if your apps are just scaled up crap.

I don't get how screen res is even an issue it's a kids ipad and the value is that the screen res avoids the mistake with all android tablets.

I'm sure apple will update and source higher res screens in the future but the mini is one perfect small tablet that i can't fault.

[xofruitcake]

Originally Posted by slughead

What I said: Apple's out to make money, this thing makes money, therefore this thing has done its job. However, it sucks

What you said: Nope, the only definition of "sucks" is "didn't make money"

So basically you just buy whatever's popular because it has to be good? You'll fit right in here!

No, I am just buying what is right for me and I wouldn't get upset if somebody make a different choice. I only have an Ipad 3 because it was the best tablet out there at that time. And I will be buying an Ipad mini because I think it is the best tablet for my use now. I don't own an Iphone and I don't own a mac. As a matter of fact, I own a Samsung Infuse.

Do you know how obsessive you come across? We all make our money and make our choice. Why are you so upset if someone make a different choice than you are? Business are organized to make money. It is not a charity organization or a church. The situation sucks because you have a very skewed view of business. Let's say that you get a job that pay $20 an hour, you neighbor with similar skill work for a different company for $10 Should you cut your salary to $10 an hour? And if you don't are you suck?

[wbeasley]

Originally Posted by MacinDoc

Could have been even more if they had been more aggressive with pricing. After all the rumors, quite a demand had been built up for the Mini by the time it was released, so I suspect that sales will drop off quite a bit after the initial surge.

Now this is not to say that it's not a delightful device to use, but only that Apple missed the mark and may have lost the opportunity to obliterate the competition in the tablet market.

Do you know how hard it is to get one? "Sold Out" and "Limited colour/GBs" only. Yes, a "very poor launch". LOL. For a while I was lusting after a Samsung 7.7 tablet (the 7.0 look like poor cousins). But the new iPad mini is all of the 7.7 plus I can load all my decent Apps. That's what I've been wanting for the last 18 months. Happy now.

[ellsworth]

Wow.. it's like a Republican/Democrat orgy fest in here. So much passion, tempers and opinions flying around. It's hard for me to understand people posting in this forum. It seems to me that a lot of people who are considering the iPad Mini "a failure" "sucky" "crappy" appear to be very butt hurt because they REALLY wanted one before the official announcement only to find out that they didn't get their precious Retina Screen. I can't figure out why else people just don't say "Pass" on the iPad Mini and move on. It's that simple.
I, on the other hand, am still mystified at how Apple was able to take a 40lbs Desktop computer and stuff it into a casing with a display that all weighs in at only 4-lbs. And then they take an iPad 2 and stuff it into a smaller case maintaining all it's specs, adding a bit more and cutting the cost? Do people not see this? Maybe Apple should have called it the iPAD 2 Mini. Maybe that would calm people down. It's also interesting to see Apple continue to sell the iPad 2. Why not get rid of that and just sell the iPad Mini & iPad?
Or heck... how about, iPad Mini, iPad(3), & iPad(4) with Lightening Connection.

[aka777]

Some of you are totally missing the point. First off, this is about the screen, so the ecosystem, apps, etc etc are not relevant. When it comes to the SCREEN, the problem is not the lack of retina, the problems with the display are:

1. Higher screen reflections. Up to 53% higher than the competition.
2. Text is not sharp.
3. Low color gamut.

In addition, cult of Mac's screen pics of the larger ipad versus the mini also speak for themselves.

[Cartaphilus]

Originally Posted by aka777

Some of you are totally missing the point. First off, this is about the screen, so the ecosystem, apps, etc etc are not relevant. When it comes to the SCREEN, the problem is not the lack of retina, the problems with the display are:

1. Higher screen reflections. Up to 53% higher than the competition.
2. Text is not sharp.
3. Low color gamut.

In addition, cult of Mac's screen pics of the larger ipad versus the mini also speak for themselves.

Isn't it interesting how different people see things differently? After nearly a week of frequent use I never once noticed any of the three "problems" listed. Maybe some people are more sensitive or demanding than others, or maybe some are influenced in their expectations by reviews or objective measurements.
My guess is that it turns out to just be a matter of taste and personal preference, and de gustibus non est disputandum.

[MacinDoc]

Originally Posted by wbeasley

Do you know how hard it is to get one? "Sold Out" and "Limited colour/GBs" only. Yes, a "very poor launch". LOL. For a while I was lusting after a Samsung 7.7 tablet (the 7.0 look like poor cousins). But the new iPad mini is all of the 7.7 plus I can load all my decent Apps. That's what I've been wanting for the last 18 months. Happy now.

I was thinking more along the lines of ongoing impact on the market, not just initial sales of a device with pent-up demand. I was hoping to see something that the competition couldn't match at that price, just as the MB Air used to be in the ultrabook category.

[jgallant1990]

Originally Posted by nuckinfutz

The mini's form factor is just crushing the competition. The Fire HD and Nexus 7 look like fat and cheap knockoffs.

just look at the picture, I know which one I would rather be holding.