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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:11 AM   #76
robanga
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The citizens want it, but wow what a political minefield that would be. Statehood efforts have typically generated a lot of back room wheeling and dealing
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:28 AM   #77
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I would welcome PR as the 51st state, as long as it comes in as a Blue state and pays more in taxes than it gets back. We can't afford to add any more Red states-- they are a drain on the treasury.


Based on the number of choice combinations on the preference ballot, there should be a real plebiscite before statehood. It makes sense to me that PR either becomes a real state or becomes truly independent. I think it is too populous and has too large an economy to stay in its current status indefinitely.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 10:30 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
It doesn't matter where he's born if his parents are American
Really? I always thought that was something that's followed down to the very letter of the law.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 03:49 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
To quote Wikipedia: "On February 26, 1904, the Isthmian Canal Convention was proclaimed. In it, the Republic of Panama granted to the United States in perpetuity the use, occupation, and control of a zone of land and land under water for the construction, maintenance, operation, sanitation, and protection of the canal."

No lease - it was a US territory, and the US gave it up as it did with the Philippines. The colonialism of the US is bad enough that it need not be embellished with fiction.
Well, I was born in Panama and studied in a Panamanian school when I was younger & I also later became an "ARMY Brat" so I think I know what I'm talking about
I give you props for trying to find the info on wiki, but you did not realize that the orig. treaty of 1903 which was called the "Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty" was signed and done by a French guy & and the US Secretary and did not reflect the true feelings of the nationals since the first week it was signed, so much so that many riots and problems occurred so bad that 22 Panamanians died on the latest riot for it and on 1977 the "Torrijos–Carter Treaties " abrogated the "Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty" which gave full control of the Canal to Panamanians on 1999 and the transfer was done gradually. Any military base is considered national soil by the american gov., but the land that military bases are in belongs to the native country and the US gov is basically getting a timed lease of the used land until the treaty ends or the native country decides to kick them out. You shouldn't embellish with fiction what you don't know for sure.

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Originally Posted by Don't panic View Post
are you telling us McCain was never eligible to be president?
I believe to be President the person has to be a natural born citizen. A person who becomes a U.S. citizen through naturalization is not considered a natural born citizen. McCain could run because his parents were citizens, so he became a citizen. If his parents for example would have been naturalized then he wouldn't have been able.
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Last edited by Carlanga; Nov 9, 2012 at 03:59 PM.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:26 PM   #80
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If his parents for example would have been naturalized then he wouldn't have been able.
That's not necessarily true. If his parents were naturalized before he was born, then he would have been born to a pair of citizens, and through jus sanguinis, he would be a citizen himself.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 04:46 PM   #81
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That's not necessarily true. If his parents were naturalized before he was born, then he would have been born to a pair of citizens, and through jus sanguinis, he would be a citizen himself.
True, but both parents have to be married at the time of birth and at least one parent lived in the U.S. or its territories prior to the birth. Its also different if it's only one us parent. There are also other laws if the child was less than 18y/o when the parent became a citizen and those also have different definitions if the kid was born before or after 2001. Many things, but I didn't want to do full specs on the status of being a citizen.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 11:26 AM   #82
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Well, I was born in Panama and studied in a Panamanian school when I was younger & I also later became an "ARMY Brat" so I think I know what I'm talking about
I was raised and educated in the US - alongside a bunch of Army, Navy, & Air Force 'brats in DC - does that make me a better source about the US side of the issue?

Quote:
I give you props for trying to find the info on wiki, but you did not realize that the orig. treaty of 1903 which was called the "Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty" was signed and done by a French guy & and the US Secretary and did not reflect the true feelings of the nationals since the first week it was signed, so much so that many riots and problems occurred so bad that 22 Panamanians died on the latest riot for it and on 1977 the "Torrijos–Carter Treaties " abrogated the "Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty" which gave full control of the Canal to Panamanians on 1999 and the transfer was done gradually.
Bunau-Varilla might have been french, but he was an appointed representative of the the Panamanian government and had full power of negotiation. It is not the US's fault that the early Panamanian government entrusted Bunau-Varilla with so much negotiating power.

Anyway - it is hyperbole to say the US has always opposed handing over unincorporated territories. Thank you for highlighting my point.

Quote:
Any military base is considered national soil by the american gov., but the land that military bases are in belongs to the native country and the US gov is basically getting a timed lease of the used land until the treaty ends or the native country decides to kick them out. You shouldn't embellish with fiction what you don't know for sure.
The 1903 treaty had no time limit and under international law the US could have stuck to it but didn't. Instead it negotiated a fairer arrangement and withdrew. I'm not saying that the US was right with respect the canal zone treaty, or that it didn't exploit the Panamanians, but at least in the end it listened to reason. Not all colonial powers in history have.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 11:40 AM   #83
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Federal law caps representatives at 435 - so yes, PR's representatives would come at the expense of other states.
Or we could just change the law.

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The only constitutional rule relating to the size of the House says: "The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand." Congress regularly increased the size of the House to account for population growth until it fixed the number of voting House members at 435 in 1911. The number was temporarily increased to 437 in 1959 upon the admission of Alaska and Hawaii (seating one representative from each of those states without changing existing apportionment), and returned to 435 four years later, after the reapportionment consequent to the 1960 census.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...epresentatives
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 01:49 PM   #84
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This thread stimulated me to read up a little on PR. Naturally, Wikipedia seemed like a good place to start.

I noticed this:


Quote:

Businesses and consumers in Puerto Rico are subjected to economic discrimination by many U.S. and multinational companies that limit access to products or offer them at higher prices to businesses and consumers located in Puerto Rico. For example, Apple does not include K-12 or post-secondary educational institutions in their national pricing program offering discounts to teachers and students and special pricing for institutional purchases.
Since PR is not a state, I guess companies can do whatever they want like this, but, why would Apple, for example, want to do this? I can't see what financial sense it makes?
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 03:25 PM   #85
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To stay on the topic of the thread, a picture that some of my friends that are PPD have been posting on fb, it's interesting.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 03:35 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Carlanga View Post
To stay on the topic of the thread, a picture that some of my friends that are PPD have been posting on fb, it's interesting.
I'm not really sure spoilt ballots should count...
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 04:25 PM   #87
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I'm not really sure spoilt ballots should count...
It's not the spoiled ballots, but ballots that people left the second part of the referendum empty (total of 472,674) because none of the 3 options were what those ~1/2million people wanted, which is why is interesting! Actual spoiled ballots were 17,764 only. Seems like 1/4 of the people voted decided to not pick an answer because none applied to what they wanted which might be to just stay the same.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 04:45 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Carlanga View Post
To stay on the topic of the thread, a picture that some of my friends that are PPD have been posting on fb, it's interesting.
Wait, one of those bullet points tries makes the argument that that Puerto Rico has never voted for statehood so why should it now? And the one following right after indicates that the percentage of voters interested in statehood has steadily increased.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 04:52 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Carlanga View Post
To stay on the topic of the thread, a picture that some of my friends that are PPD have been posting on fb, it's interesting.
Good point. The choice isn't really independence or statehood. After this, independence shouldn't be part of the picture (for a while). The choice is "keep it like it is" (sovereign commonwealth), or, statehood. I would vote for statehood if I were a PR resident. It looks like the vote might be close.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 05:28 PM   #90
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Wait, one of those bullet points tries makes the argument that that Puerto Rico has never voted for statehood so why should it now? And the one following right after indicates that the percentage of voters interested in statehood has steadily increased.
Yeap; That is what the bullet points say, you also have to consider what other options (I guess?) were provided to the voter at those times. Just like this time, there was no option to stay the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
Good point. The choice isn't really independence or statehood. After this, independence shouldn't be part of the picture (for a while). The choice is "keep it like it is" (sovereign commonwealth), or, statehood. I would vote for statehood if I were a PR resident. It looks like the vote might be close.
Actually, like it is right now it is NOT a 'sovereign commonwealth' which is why those 1/2million didn't select an option because the current status was not an option, but a new variation of commonwealth.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 05:54 PM   #91
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Actually, like it is right now it is NOT a 'sovereign commonwealth' which is why those 1/2million didn't select an option because the current status was not an option, but a new variation of commonwealth.
Looks like I could study this further. OK, statehood, versus, --- what? I know that the status of PR has changed over time.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 07:13 PM   #92
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Looks like I could study this further. OK, statehood, versus, --- what? I know that the status of PR has changed over time.
The option for sovereign commonwealth in the ballot is basically closet independence, the current ELA (commonwealth of PR) is different.
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