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Old Nov 9, 2012, 06:40 PM   #26
ALCRON
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The iPhone is already in China lol...
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 12:42 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Old Muley View Post
How much does the average Chinese worker/citizen make? Are the phones being sold in China subsidized somehow? I mean, here in the US, I am of middle income and so far my family has been unable to purchase iPhones mainly because of the annual costs associated with the cellular plans. If it is somewhat out of reach for me, how can a Chinese citizen afford it? (Of course I wonder the same thing about all the unemployed 20-somethings I encounter on a daily basis...)
Something I also often wonder about, but keep in mind that people all over the world, not just in China, will sacrifice in other areas, to purchase products that appeal to them or give them instant status, and APPLE products are no exception to that rule.

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Just for the record, I can think of exactly one successful consumer product of any sort ever created in a communist country - the game Tetris. Apart from that, what has a communist country ever made that anyone in the west actually wanted to buy? Remember the Yugo? There are, what, a billion and a half Chinese citizens - they outnumber us 6 to 1. Shouldn't there have been 6 Chinese equivalents to Steve Jobs by now? Or is there something inherent about socialism that quashes innovation by denying innovators the fruits of their labor? I personally am not at all surprised either that the Chinese excel at turning their people into robots to build iPhones or that the Chinese have never made a product that people have truly wanted the same way the people of the world cannot wait for the next iOS device. Let me just reiterate - this is not a racist statement. All you need to do is compare the relative prosperity of Taiwan to the mainland - there's a clear difference.
But, they are catching up, make no mistake about that. With 1.37 Billion people, they have a huge talent pool, and even though they may have originally copied western tech, they are now beginning to develop their own technology, and innovation will no doubt be next. If you have any doubts about that, just look at companies like HUAWEI, currently the world's largest provider of telecommunications equipment, dwarfing the likes of ERICSSON and CISCO. Their worlwide 2011 investment in R&D was US$3.74 Billion.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 01:52 AM   #28
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China has such a huge population that even at 10% middle class you are talking about 130 million people, not too far off half the population of the USA. This number grows each year. Not everyone in China is poor and working in rice paddies or at Foxconn.

I have an American friend who is a teacher, she spent 6 years at College and was only earning 30k a year in America that is less than minimum wage in Australia, I could work at McDonalds and earn more than that here. It is all relative to where you come from. I don't know anyone here without a smart phone. You can get the iPhone 5 here fully subsidized on a 2 year contract from about $60 a month, just cause the phone is worth 1k doesn't mean people actually pay that upfront.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 03:06 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by macs4nw View Post
But, they are catching up, make no mistake about that. With 1.37 Billion people, they have a huge talent pool, and even though they may have originally copied western tech, they are now beginning to develop their own technology, and innovation will no doubt be next. If you have any doubts about that, just look at companies like HUAWEI, currently the world's largest provider of telecommunications equipment, dwarfing the likes of ERICSSON and CISCO. Their worlwide 2011 investment in R&D was US$3.74 Billion.
The problem is, they still are copying. Name me an indigenous design that was not completely derivative or stolen from a foreign design. I cannot think of any. The CPC's strategy of "innovation" relies heavily on IP theft followed by domestic lockout once they figure out how it works, which is why many foreign businesses are wary of investing in the country. I mean, seriously...the rolling stock for High Speed Railway system in development was entirely derivative of the Siemens Velaro and Hitachi's Shinkansen trains; their cars are ripping off minor Euro models; and who could forget the Meizu M8?

This is not to say that unique innovation is impossible among the Chinese. Hardly. But the CPC's economic strategy of playing catch-up by theft is not only acknowledged, but the primary strategy. And given how rankled with corruption the CPC is (I mean, seriously...we may have serious corruption issues, but we don't let business execs sit in the Congressional chambers next to legislators on a regular basis), and how the emphasis is to catch up with the West without acknowledging that, in fact, is what they're doing, I doubt that is likely to change. You cannot innovate stealing from others.

Last edited by onigami; Nov 10, 2012 at 03:07 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 03:43 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by onigami View Post
The problem is, they still are copying. Name me an indigenous design that was not completely derivative or stolen from a foreign design. I cannot think of any. The CPC's strategy of "innovation" relies heavily on IP theft followed by domestic lockout once they figure out how it works, which is why many foreign businesses are wary of investing in the country. I mean, seriously...the rolling stock for High Speed Railway system in development was entirely derivative of the Siemens Velaro and Hitachi's Shinkansen trains; their cars are ripping off minor Euro models; and who could forget the Meizu M8?

This is not to say that unique innovation is impossible among the Chinese. Hardly. But the CPC's economic strategy of playing catch-up by theft is not only acknowledged, but the primary strategy. And given how rankled with corruption the CPC is (I mean, seriously...we may have serious corruption issues, but we don't let business execs sit in the Congressional chambers next to legislators on a regular basis), and how the emphasis is to catch up with the West without acknowledging that, in fact, is what they're doing, I doubt that is likely to change. You cannot innovate stealing from others.
They have undoubtedly caught up by means of IP theft. NO argument there. And you make a lot of good points about corruption and their 'closed' society, and unfortunately, barring a revolution, those things aren't going to change anytime soon. But the sad reality is, that dishonestly or not, they ARE catching up to us, or in some areas already HAVE caught up to us, and my post was more directed towards the future, from here on out.
I think we both agree that the iron-fisted rule of the CPC, and their economic policies, is a large part of the problem.

Last edited by macs4nw; Nov 10, 2012 at 04:05 AM.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 04:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by KikoPT View Post
This is all good and fine for our Chinese friends, but ..

I still can't get an iPhone 5 in Portugal (ZERO stock in shops) and still have 3-4 weeks availability in online store (which can mean, you just don't know, more than a month).

A quick browsing on european online stores and the situation appears the same (spain, france, germany, etc.)

Just to clarify that, last month in Dubai, a place where the iPhone 5 isn't yet released, you can find boxes and boxes of them in the electronics dealers.

Apple: why u no like us europeans?
I was able to walk into a store and have my choice of color and size here in Norway. Still have the same 3-4 week shipping delays off apple.com though... Pretty much how it is on other online retailers as well. My advice keep checking stores, eventually you'll find a store that have them in stock.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 07:20 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Old Muley View Post
How much does the average Chinese worker/citizen make? Are the phones being sold in China subsidized somehow? I mean, here in the US, I am of middle income and so far my family has been unable to purchase iPhones mainly because of the annual costs associated with the cellular plans. If it is somewhat out of reach for me, how can a Chinese citizen afford it? (Of course I wonder the same thing about all the unemployed 20-somethings I encounter on a daily basis...)
Go to the Shanghai subway and you will be shocked by the number of people who own an iPhone. Also, cellular and data plans in China are MUCH cheaper than the US, and most people buy unlocked and unsubsidized devices for the full price. Some people also buy them from Hong Kong, where they can be had for much cheaper than mainland China.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 10:30 PM   #33
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But if you factor in purchasing power parity, Australia goes down in ranking. To expand:

World bank rankings on wiki - GDP nominal per capita ranking: Australia 5th at $66k. US 15th at $48k.
World bank - GDP per capita PPP: US 8th at $48k, Australia 16th at $39k.

BTW, I have lived in both Australia and now the US. Australia is one of the most expensive countries and to top it off heavily taxed. Additionally, the Aussie dollar is at an all time high. Once the construction in China stops (like it did in Japan), Australian balloon will inflate rapidly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RonDMC View Post
China has such a huge population that even at 10% middle class you are talking about 130 million people, not too far off half the population of the USA. This number grows each year. Not everyone in China is poor and working in rice paddies or at Foxconn.

I have an American friend who is a teacher, she spent 6 years at College and was only earning 30k a year in America that is less than minimum wage in Australia, I could work at McDonalds and earn more than that here. It is all relative to where you come from. I don't know anyone here without a smart phone. You can get the iPhone 5 here fully subsidized on a 2 year contract from about $60 a month, just cause the phone is worth 1k doesn't mean people actually pay that upfront.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 09:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by bkar89 View Post
I was able to walk into a store and have my choice of color and size here in Norway. Still have the same 3-4 week shipping delays off apple.com though... Pretty much how it is on other online retailers as well. My advice keep checking stores, eventually you'll find a store that have them in stock.
I would hope so, but since in Portugal we only have "authorized resellers" we are kinda screwed.

From what ppl told me, Portugal only received 400 iPhone units country wide. They were all sold in the first few days. This stock was never replenished.

I'm actually asking a friend to bring me an iPhone 5 from Zurich ... So in the end, the iPhone will be cheaper.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:29 AM   #35
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Hopefully this means they will start selling phones unlocked again here in the US. They did for a time, but recently stopped to deter scalpers.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:43 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Muley View Post
How much does the average Chinese worker/citizen make? Are the phones being sold in China subsidized somehow? I mean, here in the US, I am of middle income and so far my family has been unable to purchase iPhones mainly because of the annual costs associated with the cellular plans. If it is somewhat out of reach for me, how can a Chinese citizen afford it? (Of course I wonder the same thing about all the unemployed 20-somethings I encounter on a daily basis...)
avg is low. but u will be surprised to hear how much a good % of people earns in big cities well, besides that, lot of young adults buy this phone just by saving their salaries (sometimes even 3-4 times their monthly salaries)...this you wont see in europe or u.s. i have seen a boatman, earning 2 USD per trip of 30 minutes, sporting a shiny new 4S.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 10:47 AM   #37
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People wake up see what Apple is doing..

Why they are coming out with another iPhone 5 pretty soon.
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