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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:14 AM   #76
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by AhmedFaisal View Post
We accept (other than a few nuts) that being homosexual is not a disease but something that is as normal as being heterosexual. Being transgender is the same thing. A transgender person will be depressed because he is unable to be the gender he should be rather than depressed because he is transgender.
But is there no treatment beyond a sex change operation?

How did these people cope for the thousands of years before these operations were available?

Please bear in mind, I'm not seeking for anybody to suffer. I am trying to understand.

There is a such a thing called Body dysmorphic disorder. How is this different?
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:18 AM   #77
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:18 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by AhmedFaisal View Post
Ironically, I think it's also a question of public and individual safety. I still recall that shocking video of the transgender person being beaten senseless in the fast food restaurant. I doubt that would have happened if she had had the surgery already.

Just from a purely rational and logistical perspective it makes more sense to me to pay for the surgery and make it available as quickly and un-bureaucratically as possible rather than having to figure out a way how I can ensure that pre-change transgender people can safely use the bathroom that reflects their own internal gender while protecting especially women but also men from sexual predators using it as a guise.

Mind you, to me this is a matter than goes beyond that but even if you don't care, so long as you accept that being transgender is a reality not a choice, then there is no rational way to argue around paying for the Op.
You're on the right track, but it's more support through the whole process that's helpful to prevent violence like that, hormones and getting settled living as one's gender and such. Though I will say that having surgery certainly washed away a bunch of fairly irrational anxiety, I can walk with my head up high as I just have that complete confidence in who and what I am.

I actually got attacked for being gender variant before I came out as trans and transitioned, whereas since I've not had anything like that happen to me, just the odd unpleasant word early on.

There's very often something very awkward about us before deal with these issues that just attracts this sort of abuse, you can even spot it once you have a nose for it, it was spotted in me before I came out by more than one person and I've seen it in others who go on to come out, I presume this is what bullies latched on to in my youth.

That all said, we really should not have to "pass", much like mixed race people used to have to to avoid racism, it's an unfortunate reality of a broken society that needs to get past these prejudices. We're certainly heading in the right direction just we have a way to go.


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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
I don't have a phobia.. I'm not terrified of you guys at all, I'm going to be straight and say I'm scared for ya'll WE as in society ain't ****!
So you're scared for us, concerned for our wellbeing, so much so that you want to deny us freedom of expression and confine us in an institution?

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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
probably don't have to tell you this.. Most of society look at you guys in disgust!
Perhaps within your own local community, but not broader society. Besides asking someone what they think of a group of people they do not personally know and only have preconceptions about and asking that person again, after having befriended them and then outed yourself to them are two very different things so my perception of public transphobia would probably be entirely different from your own as I'm a walking proof that we're really not that strange.

I have never had an acquaintance mistreat me, only ever a few times people I've only met transiently.

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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
America is just barely getting over the fact that we have to accept gays... you guys have a very long road ahead of you. from what I read you guys are barely even employed cause of the stereotype which all this relates to my misunderstanding of going through all of this, being blacklisted from society, civil rights, equal employment, etc. because Victoria wants to be Victor
I find it strange that you list all these horrible injustices yet argue for institutionalising us rather than accepting. Things are moving in the right direction and while you US may be a few steps behind other parts of the world it'll get there in the end, why fight it?


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Are you really happy now??
Yup. I have a spectacular life, one that I'm thankful for every single day, so much so that I actually explicitly thanked my father for conceiving me.

A lot of that is luck but it most definitely wouldn't be the case without having had that medical treatment.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:22 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
But is there no treatment beyond a sex change operation?

How did these people cope for the thousands of years before these operations were available?

Please bear in mind, I'm not seeking for anybody to suffer. I am trying to understand.

There is a such a thing called Body dysmorphic disorder. How is this different?
I think coping is probably the wrong term, I tried to get some history. Apparently the greeks/romans would actually perform sex changes but how much of that is myth?

In history of the last 400-500 years, it seems like transgendered people were tortured, killed or institutionalized. Hardly coping I'd say. I was reading some excerpts from a book called Transgender Nation which goes over some of the history.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:31 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by AhmedFaisal View Post
The first one we sometimes already do if severe premature hair loss is tied to clinical depression for instance.

The second, we do already. Human growth hormone was one of the first blockbusters for Genentech and it is reimbursed among others to treat growth disorders in relation to Turner syndrome, chronic renal failure, Prader–Willi syndrome, intrauterine growth retardation, and severe idiopathic short stature.
Thanks for the info. I guess we now see the reasons why we are so broke.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:34 AM   #81
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:36 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I have not studied this subject. I have no knowledge of the history of it. If it has been established scientifically that the only solution is to operate and physically change one's sex, then I can accept it being a non-elective medical procedure.

Since you're one of the few here that I have some respect for, about fifty years of peer-reviewed medical and psychiatric research across the globe has gone into this matter. There is also some tangential evidence that there might be a genetic component as an underlying cause.

I'm not entirely sure why people, who are completely unaffected by this topic, feel compelled to relitigate this, coming from a position of utter ignorance of the issue, thinking their insights might be original or have not been considered before.

What's more, expecting to be educated by others, to have it spelled out and put on a plate in front of you, is little more than intellectual laziness. The research and background is out there, with plenty of starting points i.e. wikipedia for one.

For those who qualify, who meet stringent medical and psychiatric thresholds, confirmed by at least two overseeing physicians, and sometimes an entire panel, this is not elective surgery... and it's entirely right that medical insurance covers it, no matter what anyone here says, because on one hand you have a bunch of mostly male nerds, some of them utterly full of derp, on some backwater computer forum unable to wrap their tiny heads around the subject, versus the overwhelming consensus and final word of the global medical and psychiatric community. In other words:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
— Abraham Lincoln
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:54 AM   #83
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I'm not entirely sure why people, who are completely unaffected by this topic, feel compelled to relitigate this, coming from a position of utter ignorance of the issue, thinking their insights might be original or have not been considered before.
It's a conversation. If the subject were brought up in a cocktail party I'd be asking the same questions. ... politely, of course.

As you suggest, I don't expect anybody to smack themselves in the forehead and exclaim, "Body dysmorphia! Of course! Why hadn't I thought of that?" I was simply trying to understand the difference. What I was hoping to do was to show that even amongst open-minded liberals there can be some doubt and need for information.

The only thing I'll disagree with you on is that we should be able to discuss these things. I hope we can share any topic ... though it would help if some of the members maintained some sense of dignity and genuine curiosity with their responses. But please, let's not remain silent when we can educate and enlighten each other.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 11:57 AM   #84
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Thanks for the info. I guess we now see the reasons why we are so broke.
Exactly. Because, you know, paying for these types of procedures is WAY more expensive than a needless war we've been fighting for a decade.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:00 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
That's just wrong... and nasty

I'm sorry if i offend, I have plenty of gay friends and have no hate towards them at all.. but I can't stand sex changes.. especially sex changes when they go wrong.. ughh I can't even give an example. its funny that my homosexual friends agree with me also
My friends who are gay are as ignorant towards transgenderism as myself...it has nothing to do with homosexuality and I do not know anyone who is transgendered so I really have no insight into it (nor do they)...therefore, I can't really speculate into the issue much given it's a culture I am completely ignorant to, but I'd encourage anyone, before declaring support or opposition to a proposal as such, that one does research on the issue to at least gain a contextual understanding prior to making strong public positions known.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:03 PM   #86
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I think I have to stand next to Citzenzen... I don't understand the difference between this, and some gal who is flat chested or a dude who isn't well endowed.

In both cases, I can see how they would feel less like a gal or guy, and I can see how they would be less likely to want to get changed in front of others, or go to a swimming or something of that sort.

Do we have to cover boob jobs then?

I'm not trying to come across as "this is stupid" or whatever. As someone who doesn't know any transsexuals, I'm just trying to understand the differences in some of the examples posted here.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:04 PM   #87
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:09 PM   #88
tshrimp
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Exactly. Because, you know, paying for these types of procedures is WAY more expensive than a needless war we've been fighting for a decade.
I guess I should have said "This is ONE of the reasons we are so broke." But this is more about the reason California is so broke.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:11 PM   #89
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:12 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
I don't have a phobia.. I'm not terrified of you guys at all, I'm going to be straight and say I'm scared for ya'll WE as in society ain't ****! probably don't have to tell you this.. Most of society look at you guys in disgust!

America is just barely getting over the fact that we have to accept gays... you guys have a very long road ahead of you. from what I read you guys are barely even employed cause of the stereotype which all this relates to my misunderstanding of going through all of this, being blacklisted from society, civil rights, equal employment, etc. because Victoria wants to be Victor

Are you really happy now??

The only one I am looking at with disgust is you. You're right, you don't have a phobia. You have ignorance.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:16 PM   #91
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Personally, I think being trans is different than being lesbian, gay or bisexual so I never understood the lumping together. But, so be it.
It's very different. Both of my trans friends are straight.

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Originally Posted by Muscle Master View Post
America is just barely getting over the fact that we have to accept gays...
He said, begrudgingly.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:30 PM   #92
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I guess I'll never understand.. transgender people must lack a chromosome cause.... while we are on the subject

What the hell makes a Man wanting to be a Woman and vice versa?

Is it the glamour, is it the heels, is it the short skirts... I mean please educate my ignorant ass
vs.

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Big difference paying for an obese person to become healthy than to pay for a damn sex change because James can't seem to live with a penis so he wants to become Jessica or die trying

If that's the logic... I rather pay for them to be institutionalized
vs.

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That's a whole other subject, considering majority believes in God! including me although I'm an open minded person
Um, yeah. You're real open minded. About as open as a book sealed shut with super glue. For you to become as open minded as you think you are, you need trying to learn from others instead of making snide comments and saying most of society looks at trans people in disgust. There is nothing to be disgusted about.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:30 PM   #93
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:32 PM   #94
Mord
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Originally Posted by BladesOfSteel View Post
I think I have to stand next to Citzenzen... I don't understand the difference between this, and some gal who is flat chested or a dude who isn't well endowed.

In both cases, I can see how they would feel less like a gal or guy, and I can see how they would be less likely to want to get changed in front of others, or go to a swimming or something of that sort.

Do we have to cover boob jobs then?

I'm not trying to come across as "this is stupid" or whatever. As someone who doesn't know any transsexuals, I'm just trying to understand the differences in some of the examples posted here.
Gender effects us in far more numerous, both subtle and unsubtle ways than breast or penis size.

It's a really quite complex subject that I can't comprehensively describe within such a post but effectively there's a really quite vast difference in the harm caused by feeling conflict between one's sex and gender and simply desiring a modified body part.

I'll talk a little about my own experience to give you a picture of this.

Given the choice between having the plumming or the external appearance (and thus, social recognition of who I am) I'd take the later in an instant, even though any compromise would certainly be painful. It's not even just about liking stereotypically girly things, or wanting to wear certain clothes, though those things do matter to some of us as they do to anyone else.

It's mostly, at least in my experience about how others treat you, having who you are acknowledged, no longer having to deal with gender variance being pointed out or ridiculed. I got beaten up a lot as a kid as I just acted like a girl until I learned to hide it, so going through the process as I did just undid what I'd done to protect myself from abuse while bringing my body into alignment.

It's all kind of deeply personal really and no two patients are the same but to put it simply this isn't based upon a whim, few people commit suicide because they are dissatisfied with the size of a given body part.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:44 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by BladesOfSteel View Post
I think I have to stand next to Citzenzen... I don't understand the difference between this, and some gal who is flat chested or a dude who isn't well endowed.

In both cases, I can see how they would feel less like a gal or guy, and I can see how they would be less likely to want to get changed in front of others, or go to a swimming or something of that sort.

Do we have to cover boob jobs then?

I'm not trying to come across as "this is stupid" or whatever. As someone who doesn't know any transsexuals, I'm just trying to understand the differences in some of the examples posted here.
I have to agree with Citizen and BOS. I know Citizen and BOS are probably stunned that I agreed with them, and probably need to see a doctor to get treated for shock. Now I can understand the need for that one to be payed for
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:54 PM   #96
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uhhh.... wow on this whole subject
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:58 PM   #97
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I thought this happened a while ago -- like ten years ago?

Willie didn't sign it?
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 01:00 PM   #98
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I have to agree with Citizen and BOS.
You agree with discussing an issue and learning more about it?

Good for you.

That's all I've agreed to in this thread.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:24 PM   #99
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You agree with discussing an issue and learning more about it?

Good for you.

That's all I've agreed to in this thread.
Here is the part you stated which I agree with. Maybe some other posts gave more clarity.

Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Can someone explain to me why this is the taxpayers responsibility?

From Citizenzen - Personally, I don't believe it is.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:42 PM   #100
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I'll talk a little about my own experience to give you a picture of this.
How common is this? Out of every 100,000 people, for example, how many?

What has been the rate of people following through with a change (e.g. with surgery) in places where it is paid for (e.g. Britain via NHS)? How big a part of the general medicine budget is it?

I, for one, don't have a lot of factual information about it.
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