Deciphering Apple's strategy for the notebook market

McGiord · Nov 12, 2012

"I could be missing something here...but show me who's really using these hybrids or tablets for full productivity?"
I am referring to fully operational laptops with keyboard and ports, that can also work with the touch screen. If the apps you use for work run, then you are productive.

rapidfire77 · Nov 12, 2012

bill-p said:
I think you are dead wrong here.

If you think a Thinkpad or Latitude has caught up to the MacBook Pro unibody, then feel free to "upgrade" to one of those devices and see for yourself. I have tried them on and off for the last few years, and those devices actually feel more like they haven't "innovated" for the last 10 years.

For instance, they still have vents to the back or to the side... or even on the bottom. Whenever I need to plug/unplug USB cables, charger, etc... I always have to feel hot air blown into my hand. Plus if I put any of those computers on a bed, which I do a lot as I don't sit at my desk at nights, then they'll eventually throttle their CPUs, which causes a significant performance degradation for a long while until temperature settles down. The unibody MacBook Pro with its vents being right where the screen hinge is allows me to operate and push it to any extreme even while it's on a bed without much if any performance degradation.

There are time when my MBP gets hot enough that i can turn it over, crack an egg and have myself an omelette.

bill-p said:
Also case in point, those devices have horrible trackpad. And I'm not a fan of the trackpoint/joystick. Using the trackpad on those devices is an exercise in futility... and I always have to plug in a mouse even for something as silly as browsing a website. Disregarding fancy multitouch gestures on the unibody MacBooks, the larger trackpad allows for more finger movement.

That is a personal preference. I used the trackpoint in the past and found the sensibility at minor movement of the tip of the finger comfortable for the rest of the hand. Non-MAC trackpads also include shortcuts and hotpoints. I also use a bluetooth mouse with my MBP as much as I can.

bill-p said:
I think you're doing a skewered comparison here. The Retina screen isn't just resolution. It's an IPS panel... which means you don't get that "color grading" effect whenever you have the screen at an off angle to your eyes. And when resolution is taken into account, 1920 x 1080 at 13" is hardly comparable to 2560 x 1600 at 13". 2560 x 1600 is roughly twice the pixel count, which translates to twice the amount of details. Compare it to the 15" rMBP and it's even more skewered.

And here's another skewered comparison: the 15" rMBP has a quad-core CPU with dedicated GPU. The Series 9 isn't even coming half close of that level of performance. If you are talking about the 13" rMBP, then the 13" rMBP has a full 35W CPU that's faster than what the Series 9 has.
Also note trackpad comparison above.

How many times do you work on your laptop from a different angle? None!
It's twice the amount of details that the eye may or may not pickup when it's already that high of a resolution and you are sitting at a close distance from the laptop. Besides, all of this can be filed under "retina is better" wich is not a disagreement point or made for a "skewered comparison" as you call it. I mentioned it in raising an argument about the difference in weight that I think is legitimate and prised for portability and price...something which you did not address of course. the rMBP is still not all that portable in my opinion.

bill-p said:
I don't see any blind loyalty here. Just people who can afford to pay for what they want.

I had this same discussion with Skaertus in another thread... but sincerely, I think it comes down to whether you can afford what you want, or not. It doesn't have anything to do with blind loyalty to Apple or anything else you are imagining.

Believe it or not, some of us have jobs that pay us well enough that we can afford these expensive "toys", which then allow us to be more productive at our work. Apple is clearly aiming their devices at that market. They are not aiming to please everyone with the pricing.

Personally, it took me a few pay checks to save up for my Retina, but it's not something I'm straining my budget in order to reach... and as such, I don't find it "overpriced". I can't "pay" for any other computer on the market like it.

You are assuming that I cannot afford a rMBP and that your likes are the chosen target consumer for the rMBP line because you have jobs with needs and will elect to get it because you can afford it. You are not the only working forum dweller here...yet unlike you, I can afford an rMBP (maybe with a little more ease) but Apple isn't my religion and rMBP isn't in my wishful thinking. I neither feel chosen or special as a consumer...or do I jump on the bandwagon of branding groupies. It is a for profit driven company. As I sought to change my once top of the line cMBP, the current market offerings from Apple don't make any sense. The truly portable Air is only available in smaller screen. I can shift the guts of my own cMBP to keep it current if the form hasn't changed. And what I would normally go for when making a change which would be the rMBP is at a different price point. Something didn't seem right...and I feel Apple is banking on me being loyal like you.

So what's up with the current line and where are we heading?

rapidfire77 · Nov 12, 2012

pgiguere1 said:
I don't think the cMBPs are still there to fill a price gap alone.

If you look at the past (2006-2008), Apple had no problem selling a $999 white MacBook and a $1999 15" MBP with nothing in between.

The difference is that at that time, the white MacBook was enough to fulfill requirements of a lot of consumers.

Now with the MBAs and rMBPs, a lot of people, including regular "non-power user" consumers, are turned off by the low capacity of SSDs compared to HDDs unless you spend much more to get decent storage (512 GB or more), which used to come as the baseline on HDD-based Macs.

I don't think Apple would have kept cMBPs if SSD was cheap enough to not downgrade in capacity when switching between HDD and SSD. That would have meant 512 GB of SSD in all baseline Mac notebooks, while maintaining current pricing.

I think cMBPs are currently there mostly for people who don't want to spend $2-3k on a laptop that has the kind of storage capacity you would have previously expected a $1k laptop to have.

You are making a good point.
However, shouldn't any performance conscious consumer know that what you lose in capacity you gain in speed and responsiveness with SSD? I had no choice when I bought the Air with SSD, I did cringe for the low 128GB, but still I completely embraced it when it performed faster than my i7 with a 7200rpm 500GB.

There are offshoot solutions to this problem other than keeping a whole legacy line. cheap external (ie falling prices of large capacity USB keys, SD cards, etc), or cloud space storage (Apple's idea) are two possibilities.

This is also hard to believe for a couple of reasons: Apple discloses that cost of manufacturing retina screens is a factor in the high price of rMBP and other devices. In a way, this is a justifiable argument because retina is something exclusive to Apple. Yet all PC manufacturers are using and moving to SSD. It's produced by more than one source...doesn't that imply that the price should come down? I haven't heard much about why they kept the cMBP line really. Anyone?

SpaceJello · Nov 12, 2012

Transitions

One of the few logical reasons for having the cMBP around still is to ease the real transition to the rMBP. It is evident that the cMBP won't be around in a few years; the current cMBP line may very well be the last.

Apple kept it around so that:

a) Customers and critics won't cry foul so loud when they are faced with a MBP WITHOUT a DVD disk drive (when was the last time you really used this?) or upgradeable drives and RAM. Remember how it was a "selling" point to have FLASH on tablets? We could have another wave of "selling" points for upgradeable PCs.

b) Another reason could be retina screen production. They do need time to prep the factories and get the manufacturing line up to speed for mass production to change the entire MBP line. Hence the introduction of the 13" after the 15" retina.

Given the rate of how technology advances these days, most PCs have a limited self life. The Mac Pros can last longer, yes, hence the upgrade cycle isn't as frequent. But any portable macs... they really last as a year of so more after AppleCare expires IF you use them intensively. If you do heavy editing/pc intensive work, you definitely will be tempted to upgrade a few years down the road - and upgrading hard drives and RAM can only speed up so much. And in a few years, upgrading hard drives from disks to SSD won't be even be much of a choice when SSDs become more of a standard. But if you are only using your MBP for emails, web surfing, even light photoshop and imovie or FCP, you can get away with the MBA or low end cMBP. You don't need as much power as you think for these things.

bill-p · Nov 12, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
There are time when my MBP gets hot enough that i can turn it over, crack an egg and have myself an omelette.

I think there may be a defect with your MBP then.

I have had mine crunched with physics simulations multiple times for the past year, and it never got that hot. That was in tropical environment where room temperature could hit 104F/40C easily.

That is a personal preference. I used the trackpoint in the past and found the sensibility at minor movement of the tip of the finger comfortable for the rest of the hand. Non-MAC trackpads also include shortcuts and hotpoints. I also use a bluetooth mouse with my MBP as much as I can.

I'm not sure it's a personal preference. Even if you rule out the bigger trackpad area for cursor control, the multitouch gestures on Mac are still far more useful than shortcuts and hot points on any other trackpad. For instance, I don't have to tap on a corner or slide my finger along the edges in order to pan a website or document. In fact, I can arbitrarily scroll in both directions by placing two fingers on the trackpad. And I can pinch on the trackpad to zoom in on images, websites, and documents. One swipe and I can explode my current desktop into individual windows so that I can choose what to switch to. One swipe and I'm off to another desktop with a different set of applications. Which other device offers that?

How many times do you work on your laptop from a different angle? None!

More often than you think. By "off angle", I mean even the slighest tilt of the screen causes discoloration. It's especially worse on the MacBook Air.

You don't realize how bad it is until you've seen a better screen.

It's twice the amount of details that the eye may or may not pickup when it's already that high of a resolution and you are sitting at a close distance from the laptop. Besides, all of this can be filed under "retina is better" wich is not a disagreement point or made for a "skewered comparison" as you call it. I mentioned it in raising an argument about the difference in weight that I think is legitimate and prised for portability and price...something which you did not address of course. the rMBP is still not all that portable in my opinion.

Weight is not the only factor that makes or breaks a great computer.

Plus the amount of detail seen on the screen is very easily noticeable to many people. I don't have 20/20 eyesight, but I can see it clear as day from 2 ft (50cm) away.

And how is it not a skewered comparison? It's a skewered comparison because honestly... which other laptop in the current market offers the same screen resolution?

If you can't find a similar machine that's cheaper, how can you say the rMBP is overpriced? There is no "baseline" for you to compare the pricing to.

You are assuming that I cannot afford a rMBP and that your likes are the chosen target consumer for the rMBP line because you have jobs with needs and will elect to get it because you can afford it. You are not the only working forum dweller here...yet unlike you, I can afford an rMBP (maybe with a little more ease) but Apple isn't my religion and rMBP isn't in my wishful thinking. I neither feel chosen or special as a consumer...or do I jump on the bandwagon of branding groupies. It is a for profit driven company. As I sought to change my once top of the line cMBP, the current market offerings from Apple don't make any sense. The truly portable Air is only available in smaller screen. I can shift the guts of my own cMBP to keep it current if the form hasn't changed. And what I would normally go for when making a change which would be the rMBP is at a different price point. Something didn't seem right...and I feel Apple is banking on me being loyal like you.

No, I am not assuming anything. Where did I write that you couldn't afford it?

I'm just baffled by your "assumption" that whoever buys into the rMBP must be a loyal Apple fanatic.

Many people, including me, are willing to eat that price not because we like Apple, but because we don't really have any other alternative on the market with the same specifications.

I don't feel privileged, chosen, or special. I feel happy with my purchase, and happy with the way Apple has dealt with the issues that arose.

The rMBP is priced the way it is because it's unique. You can revisit this discussion with a more valid argument when there is something else on the market that's similar to the rMBP, but seriously... there is nothing on the market like the rMBP now.

pgiguere1 · Nov 12, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
You are making a good point.
However, shouldn't any performance conscious consumer know that what you lose in capacity you gain in speed and responsiveness with SSD? I had no choice when I bought the Air with SSD, I did cringe for the low 128GB, but still I completely embraced it when it performed faster than my i7 with a 7200rpm 500GB.

For some people, performance is not that important. People who bought a $999 white MacBook bought it because it ran Mac software, had a good-looking design, comfy keyboard/trackpad, and OS'X stability/security/hassle-free-ness. It never was a very powerful computer for the price you paid.

A lot of people don't necessarily expect their laptop to boot in 15 seconds or open their apps in less than a second. All they want is to be able focus on their work without the distractions caused by Windows' bugs/viruses or crappy hardware made by Windows OEMs who too often cut corners to bring prices down.

By lowering the capacity of storage, you're forcing some people to change their computing habits. Lots of regular consumers hate that. Like I said, they just want to focus on their work, not learn new ways to manage their storage usage and mess with external drives. They want simplicity and focus, not just raw speed.

rapidfire77 · Nov 12, 2012

bill-p said:
I think there may be a defect with your MBP then.

I have had mine crunched with physics simulations multiple times for the past year, and it never got that hot. That was in tropical environment where room temperature could hit 104F/40C easily.

geniuses at the bar don't seem to think it's the case. They say it's normal. to me, it's a nuisance that comes with power. I like it in winter when it's cold. My MBP isn't perfect and that's ok. You seem to be willing to see it as a defect in other machines but not if it's in a Mac. Whatever!

bill-p said:
I'm not sure it's a personal preference. Even if you rule out the bigger trackpad area for cursor control, the multitouch gestures on Mac are still far more useful than shortcuts and hot points on any other trackpad. For instance, I don't have to tap on a corner or slide my finger along the edges in order to pan a website or document. In fact, I can arbitrarily scroll in both directions by placing two fingers on the trackpad. And I can pinch on the trackpad to zoom in on images, websites, and documents. One swipe and I can explode my current desktop into individual windows so that I can choose what to switch to. One swipe and I'm off to another desktop with a different set of applications. Which other device offers that?

It is an individual preference for features. I use some of those things, and some I don't. It's great that the trackpad allows you to feel like you are running an orchestra. I like to tap on everything...so what? What you see as valuable might not be all that of a value to another person. When it first came out, it was innovative. now? hardly.

bill-p said:
More often than you think. By "off angle", I mean even the slighest tilt of the screen causes discoloration. It's especially worse on the MacBook Air.

You don't realize how bad it is until you've seen a better screen.

...
Plus the amount of detail seen on the screen is very easily noticeable to many people. I don't have 20/20 eyesight, but I can see it clear as day from 2 ft (50cm) away.

I just did compare it on the Air vs. Mine, I am tilting my screen and moving my head and it's not that much difference. And I went to compare it on both version of the iPad. sure the retina is better...which is the argument that you keep trying to make...when I am agreeing with you. The split is in that you think it justifies the price hike, I think it doesn't...I would be fine with it being at the same price points as before.

bill-p said:
Weight is not the only factor that makes or breaks a great computer.

It doesn't make or break a great computer. It makes a or breaks a great portable computer! You are delusional on this one! Why there is an Air, and a thinner lighter laptop as we move forward?

bill-p said:
And how is it not a skewered comparison? It's a skewered comparison because honestly... which other laptop in the current market offers the same screen resolution?

If you can't find a similar machine that's cheaper, how can you say the rMBP is overpriced? There is no "baseline" for you to compare the pricing to.

I said it from the beginning that I didn't want to compare to PC's because the baseline is Apple itself. This is the introduction of a new higher price point for what should be current technology. It causes a gap in true value vs. projected value. And the projected values comes in the form of endless marketing jargon of pixels and angles, and engineering and using laser and x-ray and a ninja for quality control! There is some substance in improvements, but the substance at this point is inflated and the consumer is expected to pay for it. These are not only my views. No respectable tech review site has not called the rMBP overpriced. Even Apple's own ex-engineers are pitching on the lack of innovation and the overhyping of standard improvement as cutting edge unique innovations.

More on the pricing: When the retina iPad was released, the price point remained the same...for the same price you were able to get the iPad 2 yesterday, you can get a retina iPad 3 the day after, or a retina ipad 4, 6 months later. This makes us skeptical about the retina cost argument or the profile improvements as worth the price point hike for high end users.

bill-p said:
No, I am not assuming anything. Where did I write that you couldn't afford it?

I'm just baffled by your "assumption" that whoever buys into the rMBP must be a loyal Apple fanatic.

Many people, including me, are willing to eat that price not because we like Apple, but because we don't really have any other alternative on the market with the same specifications.

I don't feel privileged, chosen, or special. I feel happy with my purchase, and happy with the way Apple has dealt with the issues that arose.

The rMBP is priced the way it is because it's unique. You can revisit this discussion with a more valid argument when there is something else on the market that's similar to the rMBP, but seriously... there is nothing on the market like the rMBP now.

The argument is beyond wether a person can afford it or not. And if you can and do buy it, it doesn't mean that you are a fanatic either (show me where i have said so!). If you are going to "eat the price" you are indirectly admitting that you are paying more than the true value of the product. The direction in which you stir the conversation, arguing over pixels, and juxtaposing it to competition while you feel happy and convinced with your unique purchase decision is a bit defensive about a subject other than what's intended in this thread. This is not about the rMBP being unique or the psychobable that justifies what you ate. While the retina makes the rMBP unique, the lighter weight and profile makes the series 9 unique in its own way. The examples go on.

to sum it up, I understand that you think that the rMBP is the best there is and that justifies the price tag. that's not what i am interested in discussing. so let's move on to the bigger picture.

konicky · Nov 12, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
I understand that you think that the rMBP is the best there is and that justifies the price tag

I find it easier to justify the rMBP price tag if I put my iPhone next to it!!

bill-p · Nov 12, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
geniuses at the bar don't seem to think it's the case. They say it's normal. to me, it's a nuisance that comes with power. I like it in winter when it's cold. My MBP isn't perfect and that's ok. You seem to be willing to see it as a defect in other machines but not if it's in a Mac. Whatever!

Wait, where did I write that it's a defect in other machines but not in a Mac?

I wrote that it seems to be a defect. Period.

If you would politely explain it to the genius, I'm sure they would gladly look at it. I don't walk into the Genius Bar saying how device X runs cooler than my MBP. I walk into the Genius Bar saying my MBP is frying my pants. Have you tried that?

For the record, I did try that with a 2010 MBA 13", and they "serviced" the computer by dusting the inside out and probably replaced the fan or something. It came back running a lot cooler, and the fan was significantly less loud.

It is an individual preference for features. I use some of those things, and some I don't. It's great that the trackpad allows you to feel like you are running an orchestra. I like to tap on everything...so what? What you see as valuable might not be all that of a value to another person. When it first came out, it was innovative. now? hardly.

Again, please point out another device with the same features. You're bringing personal opinions into facts here. Which other device offers a large glass multitouch trackpad that supports up to 5 touch points?

I just did compare it on the Air vs. Mine, I am tilting my screen and moving my head and it's not that much difference. And I went to compare it on both version of the iPad. sure the retina is better...which is the argument that you keep trying to make...when I am agreeing with you. The split is in that you think it justifies the price hike, I think it doesn't...I would be fine with it being at the same price points as before.

So it is just your opinion that the screen is not worth it. That's not a fact.

It doesn't make or break a great computer. It makes a or breaks a great portable computer! You are delusional on this one! Why there is an Air, and a thinner lighter laptop as we move forward?

There are tons of devices lighter and smaller than the MacBook Air. Take the iPad, for instance. Judging by your logic, the iPad is the better portable computer than the MacBook Air and any other laptop on the market.

And then the iPad Mini, which is lighter and thinner than the iPad, is an even better portable computer.

These are not only my views. No respectable tech review site has not called the rMBP overpriced. Even Apple's own ex-engineers are pitching on the lack of innovation and the overhyping of standard improvement as cutting edge unique innovations.

Please cite a website that says the 15" Retina MacBook Pro is overpriced.

More on the pricing: When the retina iPad was released, the price point remained the same...for the same price you were able to get the iPad 2 yesterday, you can get a retina iPad 3 the day after, or a retina ipad 4, 6 months later. This makes us skeptical about the retina cost argument or the profile improvements as worth the price point hike for high end users.

Since sizing and many other components are not equal here, comparison is extremely skewered.

Just the processor of the 15" rMBP alone is already more than the cost of production of a whole iPad.

Also being that the 15" rMBP has twice the screen size as an iPad, with exactly twice the pixel count, you wouldn't expect the screen to cost "the same", would you?

The argument is beyond wether a person can afford it or not. And if you can and do buy it, it doesn't mean that you are a fanatic either (show me where i have said so!). If you are going to "eat the price" you are indirectly admitting that you are paying more than the true value of the product. The direction in which you stir the conversation, arguing over pixels, and juxtaposing it to competition while you feel happy and convinced with your unique purchase decision is a bit defensive about a subject other than what's intended in this thread. This is not about the rMBP being unique or the psychobable that justifies what you ate. While the retina makes the rMBP unique, the lighter weight and profile makes the series 9 unique in its own way. The examples go on.

to sum it up, I understand that you think that the rMBP is the best there is and that justifies the price tag. that's not what i am interested in discussing. so let's move on to the bigger picture.

You are quick to dismiss your own statements. You stated "blind customer loyalty", which prompted my response.

And I'm not seeing much of a discussion. You are just instigating others to agree with your opinions that Apple is pricing their devices too high, while dismissing any possible reason why the price tag is justified.

If that's the big picture, then I think this is the last post I'll write on this topic. It's already been said before multiple times... and I don't think we need another thread to rant on about how Apple is on the downfall or how they are "banking on blind customer loyalty" (your own words).

rapidfire77 · Nov 12, 2012

pgiguere1 said:
I don't think the cMBPs are still there to fill a price gap alone.

If you look at the past (2006-2008), Apple had no problem selling a $999 white MacBook and a $1999 15" MBP with nothing in between.

The difference is that at that time, the white MacBook was enough to fulfill requirements of a lot of consumers.

Now with the MBAs and rMBPs, a lot of people, including regular "non-power user" consumers, are turned off by the low capacity of SSDs compared to HDDs unless you spend much more to get decent storage (512 GB or more), which used to come as the baseline on HDD-based Macs.

I don't think Apple would have kept cMBPs if SSD was cheap enough to not downgrade in capacity when switching between HDD and SSD. That would have meant 512 GB of SSD in all baseline Mac notebooks, while maintaining current pricing.

I think cMBPs are currently there mostly for people who don't want to spend $2-3k on a laptop that has the kind of storage capacity you would have previously expected a $1k laptop to have.

How is the non-power user turned off by low capacity when a non-power user isn't generally averse to technical specs as much?

I think the storage argument in general has some validity, although I don't quite see why Apple would hesitate to push all users towards SSD as they did with the 2nd generation Air. Also the MBP line is still not for a non power user which isn't really consistent with the theory all together.

rapidfire77 · Nov 12, 2012

SpaceJello said:
One of the few logical reasons for having the cMBP around still is to ease the real transition to the rMBP. It is evident that the cMBP won't be around in a few years; the current cMBP line may very well be the last.

Apple kept it around so that:

a) Customers and critics won't cry foul so loud when they are faced with a MBP WITHOUT a DVD disk drive (when was the last time you really used this?) or upgradeable drives and RAM. Remember how it was a "selling" point to have FLASH on tablets? We could have another wave of "selling" points for upgradeable PCs.

b) Another reason could be retina screen production. They do need time to prep the factories and get the manufacturing line up to speed for mass production to change the entire MBP line. Hence the introduction of the 13" after the 15" retina.

Given the rate of how technology advances these days, most PCs have a limited self life. The Mac Pros can last longer, yes, hence the upgrade cycle isn't as frequent. But any portable macs... they really last as a year of so more after AppleCare expires IF you use them intensively. If you do heavy editing/pc intensive work, you definitely will be tempted to upgrade a few years down the road - and upgrading hard drives and RAM can only speed up so much. And in a few years, upgrading hard drives from disks to SSD won't be even be much of a choice when SSDs become more of a standard. But if you are only using your MBP for emails, web surfing, even light photoshop and imovie or FCP, you can get away with the MBA or low end cMBP. You don't need as much power as you think for these things.

there are certain standards that are fading away. And it's just a matter of time really. Apple had the habit and courage of making that happen quicker while other companies would wait and follow suit. this is true for the DVD and the ethernet ports on the Air and rMBP. I can perhaps count a dozen of times that i have use the DVD drive since my aluminum unibody. And those were to make a windows bootable disk or to view some anatomical dvd otherwise not available online. people have a hard time changing but many don't think of progress on their own. I am surprised thought that cMBP just sustains all the old ideas without a clear purpose on the current market.

would you clarify the selling pitch of upgradables? I am not quite sure i get your point there.

SpaceJello · Nov 13, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
there are certain standards that are fading away. And it's just a matter of time really. Apple had the habit and courage of making that happen quicker while other companies would wait and follow suit. this is true for the DVD and the ethernet ports on the Air and rMBP. I can perhaps count a dozen of times that i have use the DVD drive since my aluminum unibody. And those were to make a windows bootable disk or to view some anatomical dvd otherwise not available online. people have a hard time changing but many don't think of progress on their own. I am surprised thought that cMBP just sustains all the old ideas without a clear purpose on the current market.

would you clarify the selling pitch of upgradables? I am not quite sure i get your point there.

By "upgradeables", I meant the "ability to upgrade" stock hard drives, ram, etc mostly pertaining to the cMBP.

The "ability to upgrade" inevitably creeps up here on this forum and others, more often than not, when comparing the rMBP vs cMBP. Comments like "get the cMBP since you can upgrade later" are common. The idea that you can "customize" to your heart's desire when some new SSD or RAM capacity comes along seems to be a favourite.

Yes, you can upgrade (to varying degrees). But take upgrading hard-drives, its along the line of upgrading optical drives in capacity or to SSD. rMBP eliminates that with optical to SSD but the desire for higher capacity at some future date is still there. Hence SSD drives from OWC, etc.

The "ability to upgrade" is a selling point to some.

You can "get the car now and upgrade the tires and stereo later." But with the common user, I think more would choose to just buy a new computer in a few years if and when they need to upgrade due to computing power needs or replacement issues. And if you don't have either of those, you don't get a new one and use what you have until it breaks down.

It is a selling point only within small tech circles and the common non-tech blog reader wouldn't bother to care. And I think that's where Apple is doing so well with those "non replaceable batteries" in iPhones. (Remember how that was a negative in so many reviews before? How many people actually replaced batteries on a daily basis?)

Hope this clear things up.

rapidfire77 · Nov 15, 2012

SpaceJello said:
By "upgradeables", I meant the "ability to upgrade" stock hard drives, ram, etc mostly pertaining to the cMBP.

The "ability to upgrade" inevitably creeps up here on this forum and others, more often than not, when comparing the rMBP vs cMBP. Comments like "get the cMBP since you can upgrade later" are common. The idea that you can "customize" to your heart's desire when some new SSD or RAM capacity comes along seems to be a favourite.

Yes, you can upgrade (to varying degrees). But take upgrading hard-drives, its along the line of upgrading optical drives in capacity or to SSD. rMBP eliminates that with optical to SSD but the desire for higher capacity at some future date is still there. Hence SSD drives from OWC, etc.

The "ability to upgrade" is a selling point to some.

You can "get the car now and upgrade the tires and stereo later." But with the common user, I think more would choose to just buy a new computer in a few years if and when they need to upgrade due to computing power needs or replacement issues. And if you don't have either of those, you don't get a new one and use what you have until it breaks down.

It is a selling point only within small tech circles and the common non-tech blog reader wouldn't bother to care. And I think that's where Apple is doing so well with those "non replaceable batteries" in iPhones. (Remember how that was a negative in so many reviews before? How many people actually replaced batteries on a daily basis?)

Hope this clear things up.

I get you.

This is though not a real selling point for the cMBP. The rMBP is just as upgradable. Other than the SSD and RAM, what else can you do to any laptop? Both of these options are universal.

Naimfan · Nov 15, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
This is though not a real selling point for the cMBP. The rMBP is just as upgradable. Other than the SSD and RAM, what else can you do to any laptop? Both of these options are universal.

Ahem.

The rMBP is not upgradable at all once it leaves the factory (without voiding the Apple warranty).

I think the selling points for the cMBP are performance, form factor, upgradability, no need for adapter dongles for ethernet and firewire, optical drive, and price relative to the rMBP.

As I was returning the 13" rMBP I bought to try out, an Apple employee was trying to upsell someone on the rMBP vs the cMBP. The main selling point was the screen - "Look at the screen!" the employee kept saying. The customer wound up with the cMBP, saying that while he appreciated the difference in the screen, the price was way too high.

For most people not on forums like these, the rMBP looks absurdly overpriced relative to the cMBP. That's the biggest reason the cMBP is probably in its last iteration. If we're very lucky, we'll get one more iteration of the cMBP before it disappears, which will be, in my view, a mistake on Apple's part.

seveej · Nov 15, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
By nonsense I mean the following: I am running a mid 2010 i7 MBP 15 non SSD. it's starting to slow down even after a clean mountain lion, and the battery doesn't hold much past 90min.

Regarding your problems, I'm befuddled. I have a 2011 i7 (almost the same, but not quite) and I regularly squeeze 8-10 hours of working time out of this battery. I concur you should check your battery status and running processes. And I have two hard drives in this machine (SSD + HDD), so that's not the explaining factor either.

The other thing which makes me wonder is that you state it is "slowing down". This typically means that either your HD is having problems, you have some CPU-hog processes in the background or you've become more critical as time goes by.

rapidfire77 said:
How do you see the notebook lines developing in 6 months, 1 year, and a year and a half from now?

About apple's notebook strategy, I in fact think it's quite clear.

12-18 months from now, I assume the retina displays will no longer cost so much more. The current net price of a regular 15" display panel for apple is around 100$, I'll assume the retina display will still be double that, and the casing is also somewhat more costly, so I'll assume the price premium on the retina's will come down to 250/300$ per machine (13/15").

Some here have stated that Apple does not cut prices - an assertion which is plain wrong. In fact, there is usually a stiff premium on the first generation of a "revolutionary" product, which is then cut by revisions B or C (e.g. check the MBA revs A-C).

There will be no 15" MBA. The 15" series has always rotated around discrete graphics - something the MBA chassis is not fit for.

Once the retina prices start coming downward, it is possible that the MBP's will be relegated to a single setup (1 product + BTO) line, but unless apple is able to offer the retina models at basically the same price as the non-retinas, Apple will not drop the MBP lineup fully.

Another thing altogether is the desktop lineup, where I do in fact expect massive changes within the next 18 months.

RGDS,

rapidfire77 · Nov 15, 2012

Naimfan said:
Ahem.

The rMBP is not upgradable at all once it leaves the factory (without voiding the Apple warranty).

I think the selling points for the cMBP are performance, form factor, upgradability, no need for adapter dongles for ethernet and firewire, optical drive, and price relative to the rMBP.

As I was returning the 13" rMBP I bought to try out, an Apple employee was trying to upsell someone on the rMBP vs the cMBP. The main selling point was the screen - "Look at the screen!" the employee kept saying. The customer wound up with the cMBP, saying that while he appreciated the difference in the screen, the price was way too high.

For most people not on forums like these, the rMBP looks absurdly overpriced relative to the cMBP. That's the biggest reason the cMBP is probably in its last iteration. If we're very lucky, we'll get one more iteration of the cMBP before it disappears, which will be, in my view, a mistake on Apple's part.

I think no two reasonable people would differ about the rMBP being overpriced.

Upgrading the rMBP is destined for down the line maybe after the warranty and/or Applecare expires. This is the 2nd attempt after the Air that Apple releases a product with the clear message that it shouldn't be altered. That rule seems to always relax on the following release. Apple doesn't care what the consumer thinks until the consumer makes a loud case. Other than to save a little, I do not see a point of buying a machine without the desirable specs off the shelf. Apple relieves the consumer from the burden of choice by preselecting things. It's not the best scenario for advanced users who like to customize but I adhere to the philosophy of keeping it simple.

The cMBP is really the child of the market standards of the last several years. It has it all and does it well. I am surprised to see you say that we would be unlucky to see it go. Why would you say so? I think it's a little too heavy to carry around every day, and the form factor although great...is outdated. The broader angle is that the lower end super portable devices have been fully revamped with tablets and lightweight decent performing MBAs. The issue now is to cover the pro market with powerful portable machines. The rMBP is the right idea (maybe even less weight?), just at the wrong price tag. This also explains why there is no 15" MBA because it's not a screen size that should matter for the low end consumer.

This is where I can see how that one more iteration of the cMBP can buy Apple time to tidy up with the current retina issues, and collect feedback on which standard the pro consumer still insists on having. If we can split the upgradability into essentials (RAM and SSD) and debatable standards (the rest of the connectivity ports and DVD). I agree with Apple that the DVD should go. I wouldn't be surprised to see the ethernet back however because the demand in the corporate world seems very high. But the rMBP will be the choice for the pro users sooner rather than later.

I am curious to know what's your full take on the rMBP that you bought and returned. What do you currently use? how did they compare? And what factors could have swayed you to actually retain it today.

Cheers,

rapidfire77 · Nov 15, 2012

seveej said:
Regarding your problems, I'm befuddled. I have a 2011 i7 (almost the same, but not quite) and I regularly squeeze 8-10 hours of working time out of this battery. I concur you should check your battery status and running processes. And I have two hard drives in this machine (SSD + HDD), so that's not the explaining factor either.

The other thing which makes me wonder is that you state it is "slowing down". This typically means that either your HD is having problems, you have some CPU-hog processes in the background or you've become more critical as time goes by.

About apple's notebook strategy, I in fact think it's quite clear.

12-18 months from now, I assume the retina displays will no longer cost so much more. The current net price of a regular 15" display panel for apple is around 100$, I'll assume the retina display will still be double that, and the casing is also somewhat more costly, so I'll assume the price premium on the retina's will come down to 250/300$ per machine (13/15").

Some here have stated that Apple does not cut prices - an assertion which is plain wrong. In fact, there is usually a stiff premium on the first generation of a "revolutionary" product, which is then cut by revisions B or C (e.g. check the MBA revs A-C).

There will be no 15" MBA. The 15" series has always rotated around discrete graphics - something the MBA chassis is not fit for.

Once the retina prices start coming downward, it is possible that the MBP's will be relegated to a single setup (1 product + BTO) line, but unless apple is able to offer the retina models at basically the same price as the non-retinas, Apple will not drop the MBP lineup fully.

Another thing altogether is the desktop lineup, where I do in fact expect massive changes within the next 18 months.

RGDS,

1- After several comments on the my battery performance...I am giving it a hard look and it's being resolved. Thank you!

2- I like your analysis of the MBA 15" makes perfect sense and backs up what I expressed in the post following yours.

3- I don't believe anyone has the right figure on what the retina display costs Apple or how does it factor into the pricing exactly. The best of the info is based on leaks. Apple also briefly mentions it to push back the criticism they got about the rMBP being pricey but they never gave any details.

The argument I made goes as follows.
When you go from iPad 2 (non retina) to Ipad 3 or 4 (both retina), the price point remained the same. This is also true for the iPhone 3GS to 4 to 4s to 5 jumps. The price point holds for laptops as well. And you are right about the extra premium you pay for the first of anything. I think that really seals the argument that the price will come down. I don't think it will take a 12-18 months though. There is too much heat on Apple right now, competition is not as far behind anymore, and Apple is not doing as well despite releasing a slew of new products that do not have the same wow affect. There is a rising criticism on what is true value and what is plain branding and marketing. There were several shuffling in Apple's management. Lastly, there are concerns about product supply chains not delivering as expected. these are all indicators that things will get interesting. I hope it's for the better of Apple but more importantly for all of us that spend on Apple.

ScholarsInk · Nov 15, 2012

The extra student discount on the rMBP makes the 15 a very good deal. Do you know a student who could buy one and resell it to you?

rapidfire77 · Nov 15, 2012

ScholarsInk said:
The extra student discount on the rMBP makes the 15 a very good deal. Do you know a student who could buy one and resell it to you?

How much off is it? I have plenty of access to the educational channel. I thought it's not more than $200. That's not convincing enough.

ScholarsInk · Nov 15, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
How much off is it? I have plenty of access to the educational channel. I thought it's not more than $200. That's not convincing enough.

Ah. When you mentioned the cMBP didn't offer enough for $1799 and that the rMBP was too expensive at $2199, I thought right in between might work for you.

rapidfire77 · Nov 15, 2012

ScholarsInk said:
Ah. When you mentioned the cMBP didn't offer enough for $1799 and that the rMBP was too expensive at $2199, I thought right in between might work for you.

It was a good suggestion. One of the best deals you could get on a Mac is the previous model clearance through educational channels. When a new one is announced, they push heavy stock to university stores that offer them at a super discount. That's how I originally got mine, it was about $700 less then the refresh which had a better processor, a new video card, and a slightly bigger HD.

I also configured a fully loaded rMBP for a friend with the 25% employee discount connection. They got it, and I am envious! They will come down in price for sure, and I can do with what I have for now with anticipation of an SSD upgrade. The premium of early adopters pay is simply not worth it, there are better ways to spend the difference.

akdj · Nov 15, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
Forget Tablets!

The MBPr pricing is too high and makes no sense..

By nonsense I mean the following....the $2200 for entry level MBP15r is honestly...Absurd! I would get an MBA but I need a 15". So I am going to lug my brick around hoping that I will always be near some power source for now. Let me add that my maxed out i7 was $2200 out the door in 2010, and you couldn't get it better unless u put a 256GB SSD for another $600 or so. If you want a maxed machine you are look north of 3k......

If you're a professional and 'make money' with your gear...this pricing is of no consequence. If you're a power user that enjoys the latest technology, incredible resolution/color gamut/screen technology...screaming fast NAND storage, excellent form factor and build quality. The best I/O selection on the market with twin TB ports, twin USB 3, HDMI, SD...it's definitely NOT overpriced. It's a genuine bargain IMHO...and easily the best computer I've ever owned. Fast at everything. Gorgeous looking...the screen and aesthetically. I own two. A 2.3/512/16 and a 2.7/768/16. I'll write them off and I'll be enjoying them for years to come.

rapidfire77 said:
Productivity on a tablet is limited. That's why i started the thread with "forget tablets!" I can see the value in such ideas, but it will have to develop strictly out of tablet instead of replicating or chasing the laptop model. Splitting issues are keyboards, connectivity, and multitasking and more importantly, speedy interaction with the machine. Nothing is going to really replace the need of a keyboard to control and dictate your work.

Think about it a little, few years ago your entry level MB was about $700. now that's gone. and is replaced by iPads for that price. If you are a light user, I can totally see the selling point. I cannot use the iPad for anything productive...

...I'd like to focus the conversation however on the current lines of notebooks development and pricing. if we can all agree that the hybrid or tablet limits productivity. What the consumer is offered in terms of laptop choices is starting to be confusing a little.

Again, you're totally wrong. I know photographers that shoot events that charge well into the high four figure/low five and use iPads for off load, preview, and distribution. Not post production yet...but the immediacy of in site distribution is awesome. I know several bands that use iPads on stage for guitar/bass effects...also to augment percussion with beat pads...synths for the keyboardist...and recording of the show itself. We own an audio and video production company and I could talk for three days about ALL the iPad has replaced in our inventory. From billing and selling/contracts to effects live during show time to DMX lighting control...we use the iPad the produce. Money that is! There are bands that have recorded entire records...on the original iPad!

rapidfire77 said:
?.......These same Mac evangelists are the ones that lose sleep over products that lack innovation in substance, but certainly dont lack it in terms of marketing and branding...which when you look at it deeply...(acknowledging the quality and the thought process in the resurgence of Apple)...how much is this company now coasting on marketing their past achievement vs. true current innovation? the cMBP line reminds me of the never changing form factor of the dell latitude line of the 90's. Apple is able to get away with it...due to the lack of critical thinking on the consumer side.

Really makes me wonder if you've every actually owned an Apple product...much less a recent Mac. The cMBP is a classic and excellent design. They've continuously updated, refined, and innovated their product line. You're blind not to see it. It's A. Obvious and B. Market Leading

rapidfire77 said:
I could be missing something here...but show me who's really using these hybrids or tablets for full productivity? don't get me wrong, i know there is a minority of super nerds that find means of being productive with these things by adapting to cumbersome methods. for example, using the ipad to take notes in class is just not right. You either add a keyboard...where you are a better off with a full word processor on a laptop. Or you use one of those note taking where when your stroke doesn't pick up you need some serious caffein in concentration to stay in par with the pace of the lecture...

But if we leave the tablet/hybrid aside for a second and focus on full laptops. Honestly, the Air 13" profile is perfect for portability.

I've addressed your 'productivity' concerns with the iPad. Again though you're wrong. I'm not so sure there's been a better more suitable college piece of kit than the iPad. Are we there yet when it comes to typing 120wpm to keep up with a lecture? No! But we never were with laptops. That is what pencil and paper is for. Or a stylus. However with the 'apps' one can purchase for said iPad come with all sorts of goodies. The ability to record the lecture. Make notes with stylus, voice, BT keyboard or virtual KB...transfer and manipulate PDFs, create, calculate...spread sheets and word docs, presentations and email. Facebook and twitter...even cool games to enjoy at the keggar! A camera to record memories, video, music, podcasts, LTE and high speed surfing, down/uploading...cloud storage. Man brotha...you. Just. Don't. Get. It!

As for that last part of the quote, why haven't you sold your 'slow, aging, hot plate 2010 MBP' and bought the 13" Air? Seems like a perfect for for ya??

"After owning and selling the Air 13" (need the view space of at least 15"). My MBP 15" is no longer a "portable" item. It's too heavy...so if portability isn't defined by size much more then by weight. I say a 17" in around 2kg or less...otherwise it's no bueno!"

Never mind. I see I answered my own question. Hard to keep up with ya

. It's perfect for portability but you need 15" real estate...that doesn't weigh much. Seriously? You don't find the 15" portable? Wow! Truly my friend, getting healthy...a trip to the gym, use the stairs instead of the elevator...carry your 15 with ya, you'll be alright! Man...up until I got our first rMBP, my 17" and my 11" Air went with me everywhere. As well, I've always got my iPad handy. Again, I'm a business owner and my job is always 'on the run' meeting with clients...but one of the reasons I switched to Mac about a decade back. They're weight in comparison to like spec'ed Windows machines...yet the significantly better battery life. The power in these latest portables I'd awesome...especially if you're choosing the 15/17" models with their twin GPUs and the graphic switching technology.

rapidfire77 said:
The cMBP line is kept to to cover the gap in price created by the retina line i think. All things equal, the retina model costs $300-400 more + the cost of the DVD-RW drive.

So essentially for $400 more you get a thinner laptop with a better screen. In a vacuum, this would be a no brainer and fully justifiable. We don't live in a vacuum however. the legacy line is old and has become no different than the thinkpad or lattitude corporate lines that change guts but don't change form for years. I have one and I like it. It does what it's supposed to do and does it well (robust). However, 5 yrs later...this is hardly innovation in the tech world. And if you hit the market for current high end (as mine was when i got it) the retina models along with particular lines from Dell, Samsung, and Sony, etc are it.

Give it a little thought though, for example when you do the side by side comparison. The retina might have the better screen vs. a series 9 (which has quite the bright HD screen itself) but it's also almost 1lb heavier...which is very significant for portability but itsn't translating into a higher price. (there is also a little more than that in difference between the legacy and retina MBP).

And you are right, Apple is for profit. They are banking of consumer blind loyalty on this one. I understand that they spent time building the consumer trust...but it seems that they are milking a little too much at this point. are we staring downhill from this point on? it can't go on forever right?

No comparison between rMBP and series 9. None. Zero. Zilch. I actually considered a series 9 as we need a Windows machine for one of our sound processors.

The cMBP to this day blows the design of those Dells and whatever other cheap, plastic manufacturers you mentioned. It's a timeless design that isn't in need of a re design. The guts are continuously updated. Twice last year with proc speed bumps, now sporting USB 3 as it's finally 'built in' to SB, twin TB ports, excellent GPU, easily one of the best and brightest screens on the market...and as the fella that I agree with in this thread stated...there is absolutely NO alternative in the Window's world to the Apple trackpad. Period. Regardless of your subjective opinions, nothing compares.

rapidfire77 said:
...

How many times do you work on your laptop from a different angle? None!
It's twice the amount of details that the eye may or may not pickup when it's already that high of a resolution and you are sitting at a close distance from the laptop. Besides, all of this can be filed under "retina is better" wich is not a disagreement point or made for a "skewered comparison" as you call it. I mentioned it in raising an argument about the difference in weight that I think is legitimate and prised for portability and price...something which you did not address of course. the rMBP is still not all that portable in my opinion.

You are assuming that I cannot afford a rMBP and that your likes are the chosen target consumer for the rMBP line because you have jobs with needs and will elect to get it because you can afford it. You are not the only working forum dweller here...yet unlike you, I can afford an rMBP (maybe with a little more ease) but Apple isn't my religion and rMBP isn't in my wishful thinking. ...and I feel Apple is banking on me being loyal like you.

So what's up with the current line and where are we heading?

You're obviously not the target audience for the rMBP. You don't understand screens, off axis viewing, color gamut and accuracy, contrast ratios, et al. It's too heavy for you, too expensive for you...even though you can possibly afford it 'easier' than a fella you don't know on this thread that actually owns one. Un. Real.

If you were serious about your original query...about where Apple is headed in the portable sector...why so defensive?

It's an excellent subject...but your subjective bias to incredible innovation and technology...your argumentative tone and behavior in this entire thread. Your total lack of the ability to listen to folks that don't agree with your ludicrous beliefs/desires for the perfect computer...makes this a really lame thread that, because of your irrationality in the subject..went absolutely no where!

mac00l · Nov 15, 2012

Simply put:

The rMBP is again a PRO machine. Meaning that people who use it for productivity can justify the price.

The issue starts when you try to put the rMPB in a consumer level. For the average person, the rMBP is completely unjustifiable unless you have plenty of money to spare and are an early adopter.

My Early 2011, 13" MBP, with its i5 processor still is better that most consumer level computers out there. Nonetheless according to Moore's law, after almost two years my MBP should be outed by now by cheaper entry level computers from other vendors. Surprisingly enough that is not the case. Check out the 13" computers today in the USD 800-900 price range, most of them are equal or perhaps slightly better than mine, after 2 years!!!

My battery health is 89.4% after almost 2 years.
After upgrading to 8GB RAM, my MBP never experience beachballs, not even when running parallels with a windows machine as well as several software running.

Before owning a MBP, I used to get toshiba laptops in the USD 700-900 range. Some of them are still running is true, but they stop being portable after a year more or less (most of the times due to the battery), they start showing issues every here and there. Dealing with warranties with them is not only time consuming, but a tiring process as well.

Once in a trip to Europe my Toshiba computer broke. Answer by tech service was: Sorry you need to bring the computer to the US for warranty service.

My MBP HDD broke in Prague. Went to an authorized service provider and they gave me a new HDD in less than 24 hours. That alone, made it for the price difference.

In the end is a matter of personal situation. If you can't justify the price of any equipment (not only Apple's), then it obviously will be too expensive without a use. If you have a use for it, then it won't be expensive, or at least it will be justifiable by several means.

It's not fanboyism at all. I can tell you, for me a rMPB is waaaaay too expensive. But that is my situation, it doesn't have to be everyone's situation.

iPhone 5??? A device that all in all ends up costing almost as much a 13" rMBP is not expensive for me, because I have a justification for it. That wasn't the case before, so I had an iPhone 3GS for 3 years.

About the strategy... I believe Tim Cook has a pretty simplistic approach. Does it sell?? Does it satisfy our consumers?? Does it leaves a profit?? While all answers are yes, then they'll keep a product on the market. Job's view of personal pride and stuff is gone with him. Job probably would have killed a product even at its prime if he thought it was the time... not Tim.

seveej · Nov 16, 2012

rapidfire77 said:
3- I don't believe anyone has the right figure on what the retina display costs Apple or how does it factor into the pricing exactly. The best of the info is based on leaks. Apple also briefly mentions it to push back the criticism they got about the rMBP being pricey but they never gave any details.

The argument I made goes as follows.
When you go from iPad 2 (non retina) to Ipad 3 or 4 (both retina), the price point remained the same. This is also true for the iPhone 3GS to 4 to 4s to 5 jumps.

It's basically a question of economies of scale(squared).
The classic rule is that the more you buy, the cheaper the single piece is. This has held true and still is the basic problem for niche players. Apple under Cook took this one level forward (Apple was not the first to do it, but no company does it as thoroughly as Apple.). By having a simple product line and attractive products, Apple was able to not only buy in huge quantities, but was in fact able to buy the whole output of a fab, and even in some cases pay up front for parts not yet manufactured.

This difference might seem subtle, but nevertheless the affects of the difference are huge.

Both in the case of the iPad and iPhone, we were talking about products, which sold in so huge numbers, that you could easily buy the whole output of a production line. Thus, the question of economics became somewhat simpler, both for Apple and for its parts suppliers. Meaning that basically, apple was able to source retina displays for a price not much higher than the non-retina displays, and due to developments in the cost of other components, the cost of parts remained roughy the same between ipads 1-2 and 3-4.

The rMBP on the other hand would, however well it sells, never sell in sufficient quantities that the real economies of scale (squared) would come in to play. Also, to be frank, the price of retina 13-15" retina-level displays will improve only marginally *unless Apple's competitors adopt it*. Therefore my "prediction" is conditional on the assumption, that other laptop manufacturers will start making retina displays as well.

Here's the rub: The usefulness of a retina display is conditional on software support, and although Apple is by no means a small ship to turn, IT has nevertheless turned, and most independent software makers are following suit.
In the case of Apple, it has been easy:
in the case of the iPad, there are two sets of resolutions at play. Thus there are two sizes for graphic elements.
In the case of the macbooks there have always been "normal" graphic elements, a situation, which has its downsides (ask anyone who has degraded vision, whether they prefer smaller or larger icons/buttons/text). With the retina, a new graphic set comes into play, but it's still basically two sets of graphics.

Now look at the situation on the Wintel-side. Microsoft may be able to quite quickly create a second UI elements set for Win8, but for the different software titles, the whole situation becomes increasingly desperate. Retina not only means "sharp, crisp", it means that unless the GUI's compensate for the higher resolution, everything takes a fourth of it's previous size.

I just played around with it yesterday: I put my windows desktop on my entire 27" TB display (2560X1440), which is roughly comparable to the amount of pixels on a 13" rMBP. Then I took a screen capture and resized it to the (physical) size of a 13" display. Guess what: The icons on the Windows desktop were of the same size as an arrow pointer cursor.

I suspect it will take some time until the whole huge and heterogenous Wintel-ship will be able to offer *real* advantage to users of retina-enabled Asus/Lenovo/Dell/nameyourOEM laptops. Which also is why I assume, the competitive advantage (to Apple) of the retina display will be more lasting than hardware innovations usually are.

rapidfire77 · Nov 16, 2012

Glad you took the time to read the posts and that you found the thread idea interesting. I do believe it's a fundamental question that should be asked these days. Getting the most of that question from forum users however is not going to come down to what each individual values in his possession and the price they are willing to pay. The argument isn't to be lost in the term "overpriced" or defining what's innovative or what's not. It is clear that your personal experience and views are countered by opposing experiences and views. My intention is to move above the irrelevant details such as the viewing angle and discuss the subject in broader strokes.

1- When I have to cite a tech source calling the rMBP overpriced when it's a click away...then I know I am dealing with someone that lives in their own bubble knee-jerking over some buried sore point. These are just the economics of things. The price will eventually come down...and you will realize that you paid the early adopter markup...otherwise termed as high priced, overpriced, on the expensive side, etc. You don't have to sell me what you think is innovation, I have my own critical mind for that. You also don't need to exclude me to make yourself the recipient of choice of this acclaimed new technology. At best you have the money or can justify it, you need the cutting edge for whatever you do, you get it and you move on. At worst you, something is missing. you got it and got some lingering guilt so you are here to talk me into a trackpad i have been using since it came out?

2- You gave a good specific examples for niche usages for the iPad and I know that's a segment that is well met with tablets. That's nothing new. I carefully stated productivity referring to the standard work you do multitasking on your computer rather than the niche programs like credit card terminals and restaurant bookings/orders/invoicing or music mixing...basically things that automate a single and specific task formally done by another machine/gadget. You can't be doing 2 things on the ipad simultaneously. My nephew and his posse record on the ipad...big deal!

3- None of the note taking software on the iPad works properly. You name it, I have tried it! if you are clowning around...sure! if you are in class seriously trying to keep up...then you are truly clueless about what it takes. By the time you press the record button, the teacher will hand you and F for been so retarded to try a product not even designed for such a thing. There was a glimpse of hope adding the keyboard and using the pdf editor...try ergonomics in classrooms with various seatings and desks? you simply need the laptop frame to hold it together, and a keyboard/mouse to keep up. There are other developing means of using the iPad in education through interactive learning modules, podcasts, etc. Just anything other than what requires you to freewheel and improvise to produce.

4- Portability is innovation and that is unquestionably the futuristic trend. Whoever trims and lightens is the one that will lead the field. Apple did it for the consumer market with the Air. But their solution for the prosumer isn't as convincing. Not when a product that trails the rMBP according to you in every aspect comes out a little under a full pound lighter and has a profile that is similar to the Air in 15". I've said it before and i will repeat it again, I compare Apple by none other then their own standards. Unlike your claim and in support of the above, the major contributor to Apple good performance in the portables market is largely due to MBA sales in the ultrabook segment. The cMBP is robust and certainly kept in par in terms of components. But it's the same darn thing I have been using since 2007 (Aluminum profile was cleaner looking in my opinion) but it's no longer innovative (What's new that I have not seen before? USB 3.0? REALLY? WOW THAT IS SO TIMELESS!) and is definitely heavy by today's standard for high-end portables. You can lug all your mac store of products around as you may need them all (or not). That could be a sign of strength, productivity, and achievement as much as it could be a sign of self inflation and lack of assertiveness...and redundancy. I carry what I need, unnecessary weight isn't one of them.

I attenuated the earlier exchange with bill-p out of respect to our disagreements. It's clear that it's more important for you to cheer the minor details that serve your impulses then to discuss the bigger picture...Which is my primary interest. You can swell over off-axis viewing all you want...and when you are done, let me know which angle did it for you to see the appropriate color gamut and how godly it was, if it all remained burnt in, if you now understand what a screen means...and for what additional price? I like Apple, I'd like to know where they are heading with there portable lines without projecting my belief onto it all. So, I put a thought provoking question...if you already bought it, then at best...you shouldn't be writing here to argue the term "overpriced".

Deciphering Apple's strategy for the notebook market

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