Macintosh 128k newbie

bombo · Nov 12, 2012, 05:21 PM

Hey all,
I just got my hands on a 128 from original owner.
Looks like is was built on week 28!
Original mouse keyboard and bag also.
It does need some work. On startup I get the error 020002 which i see is a bad chip.
I believe the floppy drive needs some work too as the floppies dont click in.

Question I have is, where can I purchase replacement chips?

MacTech68 · 06:23 PM

First, you need to establish if this is a 128K with original RAM, or if it has been upgraded to 512K of memory.

Looking at the memory ICs (16 of them), you'll see either 4164 or 41256 printed somewhere on the ICs.

Depending on which, will determine which you need to buy.

These memory ICs are no longer manufactured (AFAIK), so anywhere you can get them (eBay for starters) will suffice. Search for "4164" or "41256" RAM.

Ensure that they are 150nano Seconds or faster. IE, 150ns 120ns 100ns etc. For example, A 150ns chip will be marked with a "-15" after the 4164.

Removing the chip from the motherboard is the hard part. A trick can be to use side cutters to cut the pins of the chip at the top "shoulder", then remove each pin one by one. Using an IC socket can save the same pain later.

Have fun!

bombo · Nov 12, 2012, 05:59 PM

Thanks! I will crack her open and see what I find. Will let you know tomorrow.

MacTech68 · Nov 12, 2012, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombo

Thanks! I will crack her open and see what I find. Will let you know tomorrow.

Looking at that error code, the offending chip should be at F6. (Circled in red).

bombo · Nov 12, 2012, 08:17 PM

Great Thank You!..
Will check it out in the morning..

cocacolakid · Nov 12, 2012, 09:27 PM

MacTech68, you are a wealth of knowledge and always very helpful!

bombo · 07:26 AM

Ok so I have a few chips with different numbers (looks like some may have been replaced already)
at F6 I have MCM6665BP20/FQD8416 <---this one is also located at F7 & F11

and all the others are HM4864P-3

I believe they are both 64k chips. So does not look like it was upgraded.

Can someone confirm?

MacTech68 · Nov 13, 2012, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombo

Ok so I have a few chips with different numbers (looks like some may have been replaced already)
at F6 I have MCM6665BP20/FQD8416 <---this one is also located at F7 & F11

and all the others are HM4864P-3

I believe they are both 64k chips. So does not look like it was upgraded.

Can someone confirm?

Confirmed. They're 64Kx1 so your board is still 128K.

Interestingly, the HM4864P-3 which is Hitachi, is a 200nano second RAM.

The replacement MCM6665BP20 (Motorola) is also 200nano second. We used to use 150ns, but 200ns should be fine, but no slower.

I would be careful since it is pretty rare for the RAM to fail (though it does). For two to fail at the same location may indicate poor replacement of the chip at F6.

Pics of the solder pads underneath F6 and a view from the top would be handy.

Are the replacements socketed?

bombo · Nov 13, 2012, 09:00 AM

Here are the top side and back.
F6 is circled on both.

David Schmidt · Nov 13, 2012, 09:04 AM

Looks like there were just different parts in the hopper when the got stuffed in the board at manufacturing... they look wave soldered to me.

bombo · Nov 13, 2012, 09:54 AM

Do you recommend removing the chip and reseating before purchasing a replacement?

Also, I want to say thank you to all for all your time and patience..
Much appreciated from all of us beginners.!!

David Schmidt · Nov 13, 2012, 10:35 AM

There's no removing and reseating that chip - it's soldered to the board. You'd need to desolder it, install a socket, and then fit a new chip. You probably want to socket all the RAM as long as you're in there. Definitely not a beginner task, unless you're already familiar with the tools involved.

bombo · Nov 13, 2012, 10:44 AM

Sorry by reseating I meant desoldering and resoldering back on.
But by the looks of it connections all seem good.

So you suggest putting in a socket over just getting a new chip and soldering on?

bombo · 01:54 PM

I put the board back in and turned on again and now receiving error 040002.
It seems like it is random between 020002 and 040002.
Has anyone ever seen this?
I guess it is the same chip always causing the error.

David Schmidt · Nov 13, 2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombo

Sorry by reseating I meant desoldering and resoldering back on.
But by the looks of it connections all seem good.

My guess - it's not the connections, it's the chip guts. Re-flowing the solder won't help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bombo

So you suggest putting in a socket over just getting a new chip and soldering on?

Yes. Desolder a couple of chips and you'll understand why you don't ever want to do that on the same chip again.

Besides, it isolates the new chip from the heat from those of us that are a little more ham-handed with our soldering irons.

bombo · Nov 13, 2012, 03:49 PM

haha ok makes sense!

MacTech68 · Nov 13, 2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Schmidt

Looks like there were just different parts in the hopper when the got stuffed in the board at manufacturing... they look wave soldered to me.

Whilst it's VERY unusual to have a mix of RAM chips from initial build (in fact, it's the first I've seen on a Mac128), those pics certainly look like factory originals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Schmidt

My guess - it's not the connections, it's the chip guts. Re-flowing the solder won't help.

Desolder a couple of chips and you'll understand why you don't ever want to do that on the same chip again.

Besides, it isolates the new chip from the heat from those of us that are a little more ham-handed with our soldering irons.

Yup, though I wouldn't bother doing ALL of them, unless you're a sucker for punishment.

MacTech68 · Nov 13, 2012, 04:58 PM

I forgot to say, excellent pics! Very helpful.

Additionally, removing the chip isn't easy if you haven't done one before. As I suggested above, unless you have specialized tools, cutting the shoulders of the chip's pins and removing each pin individually is easiest.

You'll then need to remove the solder from each thru-hole pad, BUT you'll probably have difficulty with pins 8 and 16 (circled in pic below).

My suggestion would be to clear all OTHER holes of solder, then place your socket and heat up pin 8 and push the socket into that hole, then swap to pin 16, heat that pin and push it thru. Keep alternating until the socket is flush with the circuit board, then solder the other pins.

bombo · Nov 13, 2012, 06:06 PM

Thanks for all your help guys much appreciated!
Pics were taken with my 4S.

I have soldered before and will attempt it.
Just have to wait for the chip to come in.

Hopefully the original owner find the system disk lol.
I just have the guides atm.

Will keep you updated!

Nov 12, 2012, 05:21 PM	#1
bombo macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Macintosh 128k newbie Hey all, I just got my hands on a 128 from original owner. Looks like is was built on week 28! Original mouse keyboard and bag also. It does need some work. On startup I get the error 020002 which i see is a bad chip. I believe the floppy drive needs some work too as the floppies dont click in. Question I have is, where can I purchase replacement chips?
	0

Nov 12, 2012, 05:34 PM	#2
MacTech68 macrumors 65816 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Australia, Perth	First, you need to establish if this is a 128K with original RAM, or if it has been upgraded to 512K of memory. Looking at the memory ICs (16 of them), you'll see either 4164 or 41256 printed somewhere on the ICs. Depending on which, will determine which you need to buy. These memory ICs are no longer manufactured (AFAIK), so anywhere you can get them (eBay for starters) will suffice. Search for "4164" or "41256" RAM. Ensure that they are 150nano Seconds or faster. IE, 150ns 120ns 100ns etc. For example, A 150ns chip will be marked with a "-15" after the 4164. Removing the chip from the motherboard is the hard part. A trick can be to use side cutters to cut the pins of the chip at the top "shoulder", then remove each pin one by one. Using an IC socket can save the same pain later. Have fun! __________________ iBook14" 1.42Ghz, G4 DigitalAudio 733Mhz, iMac Snow 700Mhz, iBook SE 466Mhz, PowerBook Pismo 500Mhz, G3 B&W, G4 MDD 1.25Ghz, iMac 233 1998, iMac G4 USB2 1.25Ghz, iMac C2D 2.16Ghz, MacMini G4 1.25Ghz Last edited by MacTech68; Nov 12, 2012 at 06:23 PM. Reason: typo
	1

Nov 12, 2012, 09:27 PM	#6
cocacolakid macrumors 6502a Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Chicago	MacTech68, you are a wealth of knowledge and always very helpful! __________________ 2012 Mini 2.3 i7 Samsung 840 250 GB SSD 16GB RAM 2012 13" MBP Samsung SSD, 16GB RAM TBD, iPad 4, iPhone 4S
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 06:23 AM	#7
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Ok so I have a few chips with different numbers (looks like some may have been replaced already) at F6 I have MCM6665BP20/FQD8416 <---this one is also located at F7 & F11 and all the others are HM4864P-3 I believe they are both 64k chips. So does not look like it was upgraded. Can someone confirm? Last edited by bombo; Nov 13, 2012 at 07:26 AM.
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 09:00 AM	#9
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Here are the top side and back. F6 is circled on both. Attached Thumbnails
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Nov 12, 2012, 05:59 PM	#3
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Thanks! I will crack her open and see what I find. Will let you know tomorrow.
	0

Nov 12, 2012, 08:17 PM	#5
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Great Thank You!.. Will check it out in the morning..
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Nov 13, 2012, 09:04 AM	#10
David Schmidt macrumors regular Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southeastern USA	Looks like there were just different parts in the hopper when the got stuffed in the board at manufacturing... they look wave soldered to me.
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 09:54 AM	#11
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Do you recommend removing the chip and reseating before purchasing a replacement? Also, I want to say thank you to all for all your time and patience.. Much appreciated from all of us beginners.!!
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 10:35 AM	#12
David Schmidt macrumors regular Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southeastern USA	There's no removing and reseating that chip - it's soldered to the board. You'd need to desolder it, install a socket, and then fit a new chip. You probably want to socket all the RAM as long as you're in there. Definitely not a beginner task, unless you're already familiar with the tools involved.
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 10:44 AM	#13
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Sorry by reseating I meant desoldering and resoldering back on. But by the looks of it connections all seem good. So you suggest putting in a socket over just getting a new chip and soldering on?
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 01:36 PM	#14
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	I put the board back in and turned on again and now receiving error 040002. It seems like it is random between 020002 and 040002. Has anyone ever seen this? I guess it is the same chip always causing the error. Last edited by bombo; Nov 13, 2012 at 01:54 PM.
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 03:49 PM	#16
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	haha ok makes sense!
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 04:58 PM	#18
MacTech68 macrumors 65816 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Australia, Perth	I forgot to say, excellent pics! Very helpful. Additionally, removing the chip isn't easy if you haven't done one before. As I suggested above, unless you have specialized tools, cutting the shoulders of the chip's pins and removing each pin individually is easiest. You'll then need to remove the solder from each thru-hole pad, BUT you'll probably have difficulty with pins 8 and 16 (circled in pic below). My suggestion would be to clear all OTHER holes of solder, then place your socket and heat up pin 8 and push the socket into that hole, then swap to pin 16, heat that pin and push it thru. Keep alternating until the socket is flush with the circuit board, then solder the other pins. Attached Thumbnails __________________ iBook14" 1.42Ghz, G4 DigitalAudio 733Mhz, iMac Snow 700Mhz, iBook SE 466Mhz, PowerBook Pismo 500Mhz, G3 B&W, G4 MDD 1.25Ghz, iMac 233 1998, iMac G4 USB2 1.25Ghz, iMac C2D 2.16Ghz, MacMini G4 1.25Ghz
	0

Nov 13, 2012, 06:06 PM	#19
bombo Thread Starter macrumors newbie Join Date: Nov 2012	Thanks for all your help guys much appreciated! Pics were taken with my 4S. I have soldered before and will attempt it. Just have to wait for the chip to come in. Hopefully the original owner find the system disk lol. I just have the guides atm. Will keep you updated!
	0

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