The fiscal cliff

[AhmedFaisal]

I'm actually hoping we "fall" off the fiscal cliff. I doubt it will have the deleterious effects everybody just seems to assume it will and as an added bonus this will probably be the only way we will ever see the military gravy train being at least somewhat defunded.

[classicaliberal]

Originally Posted by mcrain

We can afford the programs we have if they are done effectively and efficiently.

I'd love to see some evidence to this regard. So, go ahead, provide some links, some projections. You've got 116Trillion in unfunded liabilities to cover so you better get started.

From the data I've seen so far, it's a complete fallacy to think that simply making programs more efficient or ending loop holes is going to solve this problem. The scale of the debt/deficit is simply to large to be fixed in this way.

Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see.

[mcrain]

Originally Posted by classicaliberal

I'd love to see some evidence to this regard. So, go ahead, provide some links, some projections. You've got 116Trillion in unfunded liabilities to cover so you better get started.

From the data I've seen so far, it's a complete fallacy to think that simply making programs more efficient or ending loop holes is going to solve this problem. The scale of the debt/deficit is simply to large to be fixed in this way.

Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see.

Can ANYONE explain to me why Republicans cannot comprehend that we have a problem they created over 30+ years of economic policies that never worked, and it's going to take a long freaking time, and a lot of different things, all together to fix their mess?

NO ONE suggested tax increases alone are the answer. NO ONE believes you can cut spending alone to fix all of our problems. NO ONE would bet that we will have this solved in our lifetimes. I believe that if we do some of the painful things the Democrats have proposed, we will get close, but just about every 8-12 years, the Republicans get power and **** all over the hard work and progress we have made.

You want a program that is effective and efficient? Just look at the IRS. Seriously, look at almost any governmental program, and you will find massive amounts of responsibility being handled by fewer people and for less money than any private counterpart. Medicare is the most efficient healthcare delivery system we have in the country, yet the GOP opposes universal healthcare.

Bafoons!

[astrorider]

Originally Posted by mcrain

We can afford the programs we have if they are done effectively and efficiently. Someone making a billion dollars can afford to pay more taxes. We can easily manage a military that does what we need for a lot less.

...

The majority didn't vote for the politicians who promised them more programs, they voted for politicians who were willing to make tough choices so that we could afford the types of effective and efficient programs that actually work.

Give it up right-wingers. Your fantasy tax arguments are nothing more than fantasy. You've had the better part of 30 years to prove you were right, and all you have done is take our country down the tubes.

What's fantasy is believing taxing Billionaires will solve our problem. Ideas like the "Buffet Rule" are nothing more than political grandstanding...it only brings in enough to pay for the interest on our debt for 1 week!. Be happy now with the undercoating the used car salesmen sold you...over the next 4 years you'll realize you should have been buying a better engine. Scratch that, you'll just continue to blame the right for being "obstructionist" since they won't go along with these idiotic do nothing plans the Democrats have for the economy.

[NickZac]

Originally Posted by mcrain

Can ANYONE explain to me why Republicans cannot comprehend that we have a problem they created over 30+ years of economic policies that never worked, and it's going to take a long freaking time, and a lot of different things, all together to fix their mess?

NO ONE suggested tax increases alone are the answer. NO ONE believes you can cut spending alone to fix all of our problems. NO ONE would bet that we will have this solved in our lifetimes. I believe that if we do some of the painful things the Democrats have proposed, we will get close, but just about every 8-12 years, the Republicans get power and **** all over the hard work and progress we have made.

You want a program that is effective and efficient? Just look at the IRS. Seriously, look at almost any governmental program, and you will find massive amounts of responsibility being handled by fewer people and for less money than any private counterpart. Medicare is the most efficient healthcare delivery system we have in the country, yet the GOP opposes universal healthcare.

Bafoons!

Come on now? Democrats are equally at fault and the blame game does nothing. As it stands today, both parties have driven the debt train off a cliff. And both parties are sucking when it comes to working together. You can blame republicans for all of this, and you would be only about 50% right.

And as far as Medicare goes, efficiency claims aren't quite a proper comparison. About $50 billion annually are lost due to fraud or payment screw ups. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) (A Federal Agency) calls it a "high risk program".
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11430t.pdf

The GAO THEMSELVES said

As GAO reported in its 2011 High-Risk Series update, Medicare remains on a
path that is fiscally unsustainable over the long term.

Yeah...Obama didn't mention that, did he?

edit: FYI that "name calling" was indirectly said and not directed toward anyone specific. I believe you misread the original post and I worded it poorly, but that was not intended to be specifically directed. If you look at my other 3 billion posts, you'll notice I don't play that game.

[balamw]

OpEd from Romney adviser published in FT.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/66564c38-2...#ixzz2CD2Hj39x

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/66564c38-2...#ixzz2CD2Hj39x

The first step is to raise average (not marginal) tax rates on upper-income taxpayers. Revenue increases should first come from these individuals.

The second step would be to agree to a package of expenditure reductions to occur over the next 10 years.

The third step is both fundamental and difficult: it is to realise that a strategy of “taxing the rich” cannot pay for the entitlement state.

Quite a different message than what Romney seemed to take on the campaign trail on both the revenue side of the equation as well as the military side.

B

[classicaliberal]

Originally Posted by mcrain

Can ANYONE explain to me why Republicans cannot comprehend that we have a problem they created over 30+ years of economic policies that never worked, and it's going to take a long freaking time, and a lot of different things, all together to fix their mess?

NO ONE suggested tax increases alone are the answer. NO ONE believes you can cut spending alone to fix all of our problems. NO ONE would bet that we will have this solved in our lifetimes. I believe that if we do some of the painful things the Democrats have proposed, we will get close, but just about every 8-12 years, the Republicans get power and **** all over the hard work and progress we have made.

You want a program that is effective and efficient? Just look at the IRS. Seriously, look at almost any governmental program, and you will find massive amounts of responsibility being handled by fewer people and for less money than any private counterpart. Medicare is the most efficient healthcare delivery system we have in the country, yet the GOP opposes universal healthcare.

Bafoons!

Problem #1) You've fallen prey to the fallacy of the two party paradigm.
Problem #2) You actually believe that one party has been creating financial problems while the other is solving them.
Problem #3) You appear to have an insatiable appetite for spending, as long as it's backed by higher taxation.
Problem #4) It's not clear that you understand the concept that raising taxes can actually reduce government revenues.
Problem #5) You seem to have actually consumed, hook line and sinker, the fallacy that government programs like Medicare, are efficient and/or sustainable over the long-term.

There's no other explanation I can find for these things other than that you're getting all of your information from a singular biased news source, or you haven't don't the research necessary to actually realize what shambles our entitlement system is in. Raising taxes would have a nearly meaningless effect on our overall debt and deficit. You seem to realize how wars effect our debt, but are willingly blind to the largest portion of our monetary problems which is in fact the entitlement/welfare state. These are facts - if you're not willing to accept them there isn't much the rest of us can do to help.

Originally Posted by astrorider

What's fantasy is believing taxing Billionaires will solve our problem. Ideas like the "Buffet Rule" are nothing more than political grandstanding...it only brings in enough to pay for the interest on our debt for 1 week!.

Yep. Although you won't hear this from most media sources... you have to actually look up the numbers for yourselves. They pander to the lowest common denominator.

Originally Posted by NickZac

Come on now? Democrats are equally at fault and the blame game does nothing. As it stands today, both parties have driven the debt train off a cliff. And both parties are sucking when it comes to working together. You can blame republicans for all of this, and you would be only about 50% right.

And as far as Medicare goes, efficiency claims aren't quite a proper comparison. About $50 billion annually are lost due to fraud or payment screw ups. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) (A Federal Agency) calls it a "high risk program".
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11430t.pdf

The GAO THEMSELVES said


Yeah...Obama didn't mention that, did he?

Yep. Ding, ding. Anyone who tries to tell you our debt/deficit is "all Obama's fault" or "all the Republican's fault" isn't focused on solving real issues, just scoring political points in their world of blue vs. red.

Originally Posted by balamw

Quite a different message than what Romney seemed to take on the campaign trail on both the revenue side of the equation as well as the military side.

B

People could really benefit from learning the difference between a conservative and a Republican. Mitt Romney is not a conservative, does not stand for small government, and does not care about much more than elect-ability and being a populist. Show me a public opinion trend and I'll show you Mitt Romney's next policy position.