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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:52 PM   #1
sundog925
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Babes and Studs wallpaper threads

The point of saying that none of the images in these threads currently violates guidelines is one thing, but saying the ratio of skin to cloth is another. It's either they are violating, or not, NO IN BETWEEN, no gray area.

When you mention skin to cloth, its more a matter of taste, what one person decides is an acceptable level of modesty or even risqué. If it was really an issue, why not just remove the images in question and leave be?

If it's a minor thing i.e. being under 18, it's marked NSFW for a reason. While I agree full nudity, breasts exposed, genitals, is inappropriate for this site, having threads suffer due to ones subjective tastes is ridiculous. There are more revealing things in print media and television than this. And im so sure kids will frequent this MR site for these images. Google searches are far more scandalous than these 2 threads. Parents should monitor what their kid are doing if that's the issue at hand here.

Just my 2 cents since one of the threads is mine.

Last edited by dejo; Nov 14, 2012 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Discussing specific moderation.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 02:48 PM   #2
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For those who don't understand what this thread is about - see here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ELMNT925 View Post

When you mention skin to cloth, its more a matter of taste, what one person decides is an acceptable level of modesty or even risqué. If it was really an issue, why not just remove the images in question and leave be?
We could have removed the images. And we may end up changing the policy of what's allowed. But since it is to some extent a matter of taste, we decided in favor of giving members a chance to self-moderate a bit. We'll see how it goes.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 05:51 PM   #3
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If you guys want "better" images, I'm cool with that. It's your site.

I think where I have a problem is that it seems like we're hearing that no rules are being broken, but people are posting things they shouldn't be. That's rather confusing (and I do understand the difficulty you face in trying to define things). Posts should be against the rules or not. Not stuck in some undefined no-man's land where you're maybe, kinda-sorta, perhaps close to the line on one side or the other.

The thread in question is only 3 pages long currently. Back in the days of the massive threads, there was very little babe / nsfw activity. Now that there's a dedicated area, I think a few people are going a little nuts. In fact, looking at the thread, it seems that it's primarily just two users doing most of the posts in question. And it's only in the iPhone 5 thread. I'm not seeing corresponding threads for any other iDevice. So I wonder if this is a problem that needs to be solved, or if it will sort itself out over time? Or maybe we just have a couple of users who need to slow down a little?

Finally, have there been complaints? I just scanned the thread and didn't see any. Although they could obviously be coming in through alternate channels. I guess I'm curious to know what is prompting this.

It seems to me that either the rules for posting need updated, or people need to chill and realize that it's Babes and NSFW. I don't care which. I'm capable of making whatever wallpapers I want. I'd just hate to see the entire thread die off and go away because of some silly confusion.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 06:30 PM   #4
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My personal opinion is that threads like these don't belong on MR. That's not what this site is about. There are plenty of sites on the web for such images for those who want them, without having to post them here. I imagine it can lead to moderation headaches, trying to define the "line" which shouldn't be crossed, while dealing with those who will test the boundaries, no matter where they may be set. I think the allowance of anything that could be considered NSFW is a mistake that can lead to a degradation of the quality and purpose of this forum. The "Post your Desktop" threads have been mostly handled well, with only occasional images that push the limits. However, the two threads in question seem to be focused more on seeing how far the limits can be pushed.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 08:43 PM   #5
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Don't forget that any post that you find overly offensive you can report, so it can be dealt with accordingly. At that point the mods and admins can take appropriate action.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:05 PM   #6
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I apologize if any of my wallpapers I've created offended anyone, moderator or not. This was not my intention. As no rules seem to be broken by the wallpapers currently on this thread I'm a little confused by the recent discussion, as others are. Either way, my bad.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 12:11 AM   #7
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I guess just erase them both and we will leave the wallpaper threads to ponies, patterns, Teletubbies and spongebob.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 01:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEJHarrison View Post
...

I think where I have a problem is that it seems like we're hearing that no rules are being broken, but people are posting things they shouldn't be. That's rather confusing (and I do understand the difficulty you face in trying to define things). Posts should be against the rules or not. Not stuck in some undefined no-man's land where you're maybe, kinda-sorta, perhaps close to the line on one side or the other.
In a perfect world, that's exactly what we would want. The issue here is that "appropriate" and "inappropriate" are in the eye of the beholder. We can't say something like "as long as all controversial body parts are covered by a piece of cloth at least as big as the 5 droit postage stamp of Zamboobia, they're fine", so there's really no good yardstick by which to judge them. We don't need a soft porn section on MR, but at the same time, UI customisation is something members are interested in, so we'd like those members to be able to post images.

Quote:
The thread in question is only 3 pages long currently. Back in the days of the massive threads, there was very little babe / nsfw activity. Now that there's a dedicated area, I think a few people are going a little nuts. In fact, looking at the thread, it seems that it's primarily just two users doing most of the posts in question. And it's only in the iPhone 5 thread. I'm not seeing corresponding threads for any other iDevice. So I wonder if this is a problem that needs to be solved, or if it will sort itself out over time? Or maybe we just have a couple of users who need to slow down a little?
All good questions, and we're thinking and watching as the forum setup for wallpapers settles in.

Quote:
Finally, have there been complaints? I just scanned the thread and didn't see any. Although they could obviously be coming in through alternate channels. I guess I'm curious to know what is prompting this.

It seems to me that either the rules for posting need updated, or people need to chill and realize that it's Babes and NSFW. I don't care which. I'm capable of making whatever wallpapers I want. I'd just hate to see the entire thread die off and go away because of some silly confusion.
Comments from members and mod/admin discussion are usual anytime something is changed. That's really all that's prompting it. Nothing will die off, but things might change a bit over time. And those changes might well include a specification of the rules for posting, just as you mention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGJstudios View Post
My personal opinion is that threads like these don't belong on MR. That's not what this site is about. There are plenty of sites on the web for such images for those who want them, without having to post them here. I imagine it can lead to moderation headaches, trying to define the "line" which shouldn't be crossed, while dealing with those who will test the boundaries, no matter where they may be set. I think the allowance of anything that could be considered NSFW is a mistake that can lead to a degradation of the quality and purpose of this forum. The "Post your Desktop" threads have been mostly handled well, with only occasional images that push the limits. However, the two threads in question seem to be focused more on seeing how far the limits can be pushed.
That's definitely one aspect we're considering. It's a balance between what members are interested in, and what we'd like to have on the site.

All these comments are very helpful for us in our backstage discussions.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 02:34 AM   #9
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While no concrete rules have been broken, we can still make suggestions on how we would like the thread to move onward. I think there are two reasons why using a mod note is helpful in this case:

1. Borderline posting may lead to posts that actually violate our rules and we prefer to use preventative actions if possible. We have had wallpaper threads in the past where the thread was fine at first but people ended up posting wallpapers that revealed too much. The more revealing the pictures are, the bigger the chance that someone will try to slip in a rule-violating picture. The NSFW tag is also a matter of interpretation, some can think it's fine to post images that have uncovered breasts because "they are just boobs".

2. We are constantly re-evaluating our rules and policies but such changes are not done overnight. We try not to change our rules and policies unless it's really necessary because changes can always lead to confusion (not everyone will know about the changes and will hence backup their action by saying "but I've done this before"). Thus we may use mod notes and hand the gun to you, our users. You now know what we would like to see and we hope you will concur with our suggestion so no rule/policy changes need to be made.

We all know that anyone can find more revealing pictures by just using Google, but the point is that we don't need to be another soft-porn wallpaper site. At least personally I don't want a situation where people will come to this site to look for babe wallpapers because in the end it will lead to more and more revealing pictures, and hence more work for us. This is a technology site after all.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:59 AM   #10
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Maybe I'm getting old. I don't consider myself to be prudish, and of course the thread title states clearly what the content is likely to be. From a personal point of view however, I find it distasteful, and feel that it lowers the tone of the site.

Just my 10c worth.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:10 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qcksilver View Post
I apologize if any of my wallpapers I've created offended anyone, moderator or not. This was not my intention. As no rules seem to be broken by the wallpapers currently on this thread I'm a little confused by the recent discussion, as others are. Either way, my bad.
I don't think your wallpapers offended anybody necessarily. On a personal level, myself and probably all of the mods don't care and aren't bothered by skin. It's more "what's right for the site".

I wouldn't worry about getting banned over posting images of the type you are posting. All we are striving for is that if we could somehow graph the amount of cloth to skin, we'd be a bit higher overall on the cloth side. There's just no good way to define that. It's pretty easy to say "no visible nipples or genitalia". It's difficult to define it much past that. We can't go around measure skirt to knee length and ensure only the top button is unbuttoned. If somebody can suggest a better defined ruleset, feel free to suggest one. We're totally game listening in on that.

So instead the slow change option is to just let people know, "We're okay with what you've posted so far, but we'd very much encourage the thread to not become just a soft porn thread." If all you want to do in that thread is post pictures of women that are the first few pictures of a porn image set, the thread probably isn't for you. Our hope is that the overall average goes up for cloth.

You won't get banned for posting images like you and others have posted. We would contact you via private message a few times first at minimum before we went anywhere near there. We just encourage you to branch out more in your image selections, otherwise we may need to revisit the allowance of the NSFW threads. It'd be really easy to say "No pictures of people at all unless they have mom jeans and a parka on." Instead we're trying to let you fix it yourselves first.

I personally don't have an iPhone 5 and on my iPhone 4S I still have the default wallpaper. I only participated in the threads in order to encourage the change earlier. Speaking of which... I need to unleash a few more from the stockpile I created....
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Last edited by SilentPanda; Nov 15, 2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 12:04 PM   #12
MEJHarrison
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Originally Posted by SilentPanda View Post
I personally don't have an iPhone 5 and on my iPhone 4S I still have the default wallpaper.
I don't have my iPhone 5 yet either. And for the past 2 years, I've used a plain, purple background for both my lock and home screens on my 4. I can't do backgrounds that aren't solid. Too much clutter.

Still, best of luck to the moderators. Seems to be a tricky situation!
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 04:03 PM   #13
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To those that don't approve of the content in NSFW tagged photo threads (or are at work). Don't go there, its as simple of that.

If you can have pictures of all kinds of things as your backgrounds on iPhones and Macs, why not babes / hunks? In fact by corralling them into specific threads, you can contain the issue and therefore avoid such horror altogether.

- The only misnomer (I think), is the desktop thread, as that is in the main picture area and not split - should it also be moved? Either way someone could start a babes / hunks desktop wallpaper thread, to rid the blight from the general monthly ones?

I don't see how such threads 'lower the tone' of the site, or how because of some babe threads Macrumors will now become the bastion of NSFW wallpapers.

Common sense should tell people that the following escalates an image from Not Suitable For Work to Not Safe for Work - as there is a distinction IMHO;
  • Partially or fully exposed Genitals.
  • Partially or fully exposed Nipples and or areola. <- even though we have these on page 3 of newspapers in the uk
  • Breasts with nipple covers (think Janet Jackson(or don't!), even if the areola is also covered.
  • Censored or obscured porn images (where there is clearly fun times going on, but the image has been 'shopped' to obscure the 'action'). You may also want to include the likes of those - 'safe for work porn' images that did the rounds a while back.
  • Similar to the above, any image that shows sexual activity but no actual nudity or penetration is visible.
  • Bare Buttocks.
  • Visible Camel toe or Moose knuckle (where the form of genitalia is clearly defined albeit under clothing).
I think that covers it, and perhaps something like this should be available to view in the rules section, and perhaps prefaced in the relevant image boards - possibly the OP's should also remind other posters at the start of the thread.

As for me, I will continue to post pictures of scantily clad (but not nude) lasses with great arses in the wallpaper threads. If I have offended anyone in my post history, then I am truly unrepentant!
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 04:36 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by CHAOS STEP View Post
Don't go there, its as simple of that.
No, it's not as simple as that. It also has to do with the reputation of this forum and what kind of content we want to be known for. This is a site about Apple products and related hardware and software. It is not a soft porn site.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:52 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by GGJstudios View Post
No, it's not as simple as that. It also has to do with the reputation of this forum and what kind of content we want to be known for. This is a site about Apple products and related hardware and software. It is not a soft porn site.
Should we remove community discussion then? It's not always about Macs. Oh, and PRSI? Not everyone cares about american politics.

For the record, I am not a fan of babe wallpapers, but I don't feel like it should be removed, as long as it is properly identified (I.E. NSFW tag and descriptive thread title).
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:24 PM   #16
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No, it's not as simple as that. It also has to do with the reputation of this forum and what kind of content we want to be known for. This is a site about Apple products and related hardware and software. It is not a soft porn site.
Although the site is about Apple and its products, the forum already features discussion areas specifically for non Apple products - see the non ios and non apple gaming, community etc sections.

So you can see that the content on MacRumors forums is quite diverse. If we were to decide that certain content shouldn't be on here because it doesn't relate to Apple, where would we start the cull?

In any event, the content in question is posted for people to use on their apple products. As there are wallpaper threads asking for submissions of users own desktops or images that can be used for others, why should such content be excluded?

I think that referring to bikini girls as softcore porn is a stretch to say the least, as softcore porn generally features partial nudity.

Lastly I very much doubt that a few babe wallpaper threads will negatively affect the reputation of MacRumors. In fact allowing some leeway in posting, lets face it, some relatively mild content (through prudent moderation), could be considered in a positive light. If there were further rules against posting content, then there would also be dissatisfaction.

Like most things, it's a case a getting the balance right, and just because you may not like the kind of content in the NSFW threads then, again, quite simply you can avoid exposure to that content quite easily.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 08:04 PM   #17
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Personally, this is a bad move the Mod's are making.

Boy's like girls with less clothing. Not more.

It's a common male need and there's nothing wrong with that.

OR we can make another version.

Babe's Thread 1: More Clothing

Babe's Thread 2: Less Clothing (Like how they were BEFORE the mod's stepped In.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:34 AM   #18
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Personally, this is a bad move the Mod's are making.

Boy's like girls with less clothing. Not more.

It's a common male need and there's nothing wrong with that.

OR we can make another version.

Babe's Thread 1: More Clothing

Babe's Thread 2: Less Clothing (Like how they were BEFORE the mod's stepped In.
There's nothing stopping you from going to a forum who's content is geared toward this type of stuff. It's all over the place but it does not belong on MacRumors.

This isn't semi-nude chicks dot com.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:18 AM   #19
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This isn't semi-nude chicks dot com.
That's what she said!
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iMichael! View Post
Boy's like girls with less clothing. Not more.

It's a common male need and there's nothing wrong with that.
Even though it's a need, that doesn't mean you can do it wherever you want. Urinating is also a natural need but you can't just do it where you like, there are specific places meant for it. The same applies to "men needs", there are plenty of sites that don't focus on anything else.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:39 AM   #21
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I don't care about the content inside the thread so much as the thread title always makes me think it is spam. I think it should have just been named differently.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:56 PM   #22
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It'd probably be alright if the threads were delisted from search engines, so that there's no chance of the general public coming across those threads when they're looking 'stuff ' up, and therefore associating MR with that kinda thing.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 08:28 AM   #23
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People with such delicate sensibilities always make me smile. It's so...quaint.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 12:48 PM   #24
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I'm not interested in the NSFW pics, so I don't really care, but I agree that there is no in-between.

Either there is a violation, or there isn't.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 04:52 PM   #25
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Amazing that people get worked up about this stuff.

Its one thread in thousands. If you don't like it, don't look.
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