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Old Nov 14, 2012, 07:59 PM   #26
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by iStudentUK View Post
We are here to discuss the Dutch legal system ...
I disagree. Re-read the OP. I believe he invites comparison with the following lines ...

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Originally Posted by likemyorbs View Post
And we in the US think OUR legal system is bad. The legal system in the Netherlands is a joke. Clearly there is no value on life in their laws.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 03:08 AM   #27
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You'll find very similar principles on mitigation in the Dutch, British and US legal systems for age and for mental capacity. The difference comes down to how far up or down you push the bar, and sometimes a combination of factors put the bar down so low it seems unreasonable to a layperson.

We have a big problem with politicising sentences in the UK, which means you never really get a clear view of how the law really is/should be applied. No doubt the same in the US, or worse so. Which means you'll occasionally get a sense of outrage when taking a cursory look at another jurisdiction's judgements.

If you're really incensed OP, ask a Dutch legal expert to go over the actual ruling with you so you can appreciate it without the hype of a reporter's spin. Personally I don't think the case makes a mockery of the Dutch legal system - perhaps it's setting a stellar non-retributive example that many of us are not able to stomach (as Hunny hinted to earlier and you were all so tellingly keen to dismiss).
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 04:55 AM   #28
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You'll find very similar principles on mitigation in the Dutch, British and US legal systems for age and for mental capacity. The difference comes down to how far up or down you push the bar, and sometimes a combination of factors put the bar down so low it seems unreasonable to a layperson.

We have a big problem with politicising sentences in the UK, which means you never really get a clear view of how the law really is/should be applied. No doubt the same in the US, or worse so. Which means you'll occasionally get a sense of outrage when taking a cursory look at another jurisdiction's judgements.

If you're really incensed OP, ask a Dutch legal expert to go over the actual ruling with you so you can appreciate it without the hype of a reporter's spin. Personally I don't think the case makes a mockery of the Dutch legal system - perhaps it's setting a stellar non-retributive example that many of us are not able to stomach (as Hunny hinted to earlier and you were all so tellingly keen to dismiss).
Still waiting for any evidence that rehabilitation or therapy works in the case of teenage killers who plan murder in advance and execute their plan in a sadistic or calculated way. I suspect there isn't any good evidencet, because teen killers tend to have personality disorders. Unless we have some sort of proof in this respect, I would argue that paroling them when they reach adult makes them even more dangerous: there are the ill effects of prison, they are at the peak of their physical fitness, they are experienced with the legal system and can manipulate it, etc.

Venables, who killed Bulger (a two-year-old), was convicted at the age of 11 and then released 9 years later. In spite of a psychiatric report that he was a 'trivial' risk to the public, he was later found to have downloaded and distributed 57 images of child pornography including one in which a two-year-old was raped (he also was found in possession of cocaine and was known to drink and take drugs). Again, this seemed hardly surprising to me: if after more than ten years of socialization a teen commits a calculated, cold-blooded murder, they are hardly going to completely reverse their nature after a few hours per week of therapy held over the course of a few years. Moreover, our ability to predict what these young offenders will do as adults seems to be very low, so I believe we should separate them from society until we are absolutely certain they are no risk. That means waiting for the additional research about the efficacy of treatment and applying it to individuals once the methodology has sufficient predictive power.
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Last edited by VulchR; Nov 15, 2012 at 05:18 AM.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 06:51 AM   #29
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Still waiting for any evidence that rehabilitation or therapy works in the case of teenage killers who plan murder in advance and execute their plan in a sadistic or calculated way. I suspect there isn't any good evidencet, because teen killers tend to have personality disorders. Unless we have some sort of proof in this respect, I would argue that paroling them when they reach adult makes them even more dangerous: there are the ill effects of prison, they are at the peak of their physical fitness, they are experienced with the legal system and can manipulate it, etc.

Venables, who killed Bulger (a two-year-old), was convicted at the age of 11 and then released 9 years later. In spite of a psychiatric report that he was a 'trivial' risk to the public, he was later found to have downloaded and distributed 57 images of child pornography including one in which a two-year-old was raped (he also was found in possession of cocaine and was known to drink and take drugs). Again, this seemed hardly surprising to me: if after more than ten years of socialization a teen commits a calculated, cold-blooded murder, they are hardly going to completely reverse their nature after a few hours per week of therapy held over the course of a few years. Moreover, our ability to predict what these young offenders will do as adults seems to be very low, so I believe we should separate them from society until we are absolutely certain they are no risk. That means waiting for the additional research about the efficacy of treatment and applying it to individuals once the methodology has sufficient predictive power.
Taking drugs and drinking? What's that got to do with anything? I took cocaine, I know guys who you'd hire to represent you in court who still take it. Bet half the folk on this forum at least tried it.

As for the child porn, we both know that at all levels of society we've found people in possession of child porn. Venables spent his formative years in prison and was no doubt traumatised and conflicted by what he had done.

Yet you demonize him for drinking and snorting some rec? The child porn is vile, but no more vile than the teachers we've caught with it. Your rant is dangerously skewed. I'd say Venables held up better than expected, all things considered.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:11 AM   #30
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Yet their murder rate is nearly one-fourth of that in the United States.

It's problematic to claim they are failing when the numbers say otherwise.
Just so you know, Japan has a rather well known strict system with a death penalty. Yet their homicide rate is more than half that of the Netherlands. So, statistics don't always work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 08:27 AM   #31
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Just so you know, Japan has a rather well known strict system with a death penalty. Yet their homicide rate is more than half that of the Netherlands. So, statistics don't always work.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Statistics do work. They don't tell the whole story. But they are useful.

Do you think that your example of Japan supports the OP's claim?

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The legal system in the Netherlands is a joke. Clearly there is no value on life in their laws.
If so, please explain.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 08:31 AM   #32
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Just so you know, Japan has a rather well known strict system with a death penalty. Yet their homicide rate is more than half that of the Netherlands. So, statistics don't always work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
To be fair,

This goes back to comparing the crime rate in the US to crime rates in other countries and the whole anti-gun argument.

You can't compare countries with vastly different cultures in ways like this and expect to prove anything.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 08:35 AM   #33
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I'm not sure what you mean by that. Statistics do work. They don't tell the whole story. But they are useful.

Do you think that your example of Japan supports the OP's claim?



If so, please explain.
You were trying to disprove his argument by saying the system in place is the reason for their low numbers. Japan has a system more strict than the States, yet their rates are lower than the Netherlands. That is what I was trying to say. Nothing to do with his comment. More to do with his assumption that the Netherlands is too lenient.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 01:47 PM   #34
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Taking drugs and drinking? What's that got to do with anything? ....
In his case, he broke the terms of his probation, and thus it is another example of how he was more than willing as an adult to violate the law and social norms. You could hardly call him 'reformed'.

As for your own drug-taking history....
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