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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:00 AM   #1
Brian Y
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Trolling in this community

Hi,

First off - before I say this, this isn't a complaint about moderation, it's about the community itself. Instead of taking this as whining or moaning, please take it as constructive feedback from a newcomer, who has, quite frankly, been put off of coming here, and probably wont be returning on a regular basis.

I've been a long time reader of MacRumors, and about a month ago decided to join in on the forums - what a mistake that was! From my brief 1 month experience, here's what I've noticed:

- There are no constructive arguments here. People instantly seem to jump down the "no, you're talking ********" route.

- There is an insane amount of trolling for a moderated community. This isn't just something I've noticed about replies to my own posts, but to people who are much more established, too. It's hard to hold a sensible discussion, or to argue your point in a mature way, when you're confronted with comments like "I love how you're back-pedalling, hard."

- If you're pro-apple on these forums, you seem to get a lot of stick from a very vocal "APPLE ARE ALWAYS WRONG AND OUT TO GET US" section of the community. Which is ironic, really, for an Apple based forum.

I've found that it's impossible to actually hold a discussion on this site if your views differ from that of the vocal minority. Which is a shame, since I love the idea here, but the problem with trolling and attacking here seems to be way out of hand - even when compared to other similar sites.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:07 AM   #2
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Unfortunately, it's futile to wish for it to be any other way. You are probably just about to get told where you can go, I'd imagine.

If you want to make yourself feel better, pop over to the snake pits that are the DPReview forums. If you survive that with any semblance of faith left in your fellow man, then you might find returning to Mac Rumors is a slightly fluffier experience than you'd thought.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:22 AM   #3
Brian Y
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Originally Posted by jadot View Post
Unfortunately, it's futile to wish for it to be any other way. You are probably just about to get told where you can go, I'd imagine.

If you want to make yourself feel better, pop over to the snake pits that are the DPReview forums. If you survive that with any semblance of faith left in your fellow man, then you might find returning to Mac Rumors is a slightly fluffier experience than you'd thought.
Oh, I have no expectation of anything less, I just wanted to give the mod team a view of what it's like here for a newcomer - and to hope they might feel like doing something about it.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:30 AM   #4
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You get used to it and, with time, can filter the nonsense from the gold. There is also the "ignore" list for the tiresome bores. Don't give up as there is much to be learned from being a regular member. The mods walk a fine line between removing obvious bs and continuing the flow of free discussion and it's not always easy, from a completely balanced perspective, to do this. Having said all that, some sub-forums are better than others.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:11 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
it's about the community itself
... and the second after you applied for a user ID you are part of this community. And each member can influence the tone in communication.

There are really simple ways like "don't feed the troll", stay calm ... don't jump in each discussion, avoid rush hours/days around launches etc. Many common sense kind of stuff; a good summary in the forum rules.

Of course I'm also guilty in occasional writing crap; sometimes posts just hit my nerve and my fingers going uncontrollable over the keyboard. But happen hopefully not often.

It's also clear that in many cases language is an issue. Lots of non-native speaker like me struggle with English and are not aware of certain ways of writing compared to native speaker. Or level of humor/irony is different. That also contributes to misunderstanding on both side.

As you asked for mature discussion: be mature in discussions and be a role model. Don't pay lots attention to trolls and haters. Its waste of energy. Report them and let the mods take care about it. Once they don't get the response they hope for they will leave. That will help the community overall. There are some really knowledgable wizard here you would miss.

Give us a chance and stay part of the community.

PS: I read quite some heavy discussions where the members got tough to each other but in between invited each other to visit. Beside the differences they also respected each other.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:31 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
Oh, I have no expectation of anything less, I just wanted to give the mod team a view of what it's like here for a newcomer - and to hope they might feel like doing something about it.
The Mod Team relies heavily on user generated reports to reign in rules violations which include trolling. Sometimes trolling takes some time as we have to discuss the report for a day or two before a decision is made.

There are far too many posts each day for us to look at, we take care of the ones we see and rely on you the users for the rest.

My suggestion is to report those posts that you feel are trolling and/or violating the forum rules. Also choose your battles wisely and don't respond to those who are trolling. Rather ignore them, report them and move on to responding to users with a constructive attitude.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:02 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianJapan View Post
... and the second after you applied for a user ID you are part of this community. And each member can influence the tone in communication.

There are really simple ways like "don't feed the troll", stay calm ... don't jump in each discussion, avoid rush hours/days around launches etc. Many common sense kind of stuff; a good summary in the forum rules.

Of course I'm also guilty in occasional writing crap; sometimes posts just hit my nerve and my fingers going uncontrollable over the keyboard. But happen hopefully not often.

It's also clear that in many cases language is an issue. Lots of non-native speaker like me struggle with English and are not aware of certain ways of writing compared to native speaker. Or level of humor/irony is different. That also contributes to misunderstanding on both side.

As you asked for mature discussion: be mature in discussions and be a role model. Don't pay lots attention to trolls and haters. Its waste of energy. Report them and let the mods take care about it. Once they don't get the response they hope for they will leave. That will help the community overall. There are some really knowledgable wizard here you would miss.

Give us a chance and stay part of the community.

PS: I read quite some heavy discussions where the members got tough to each other but in between invited each other to visit. Beside the differences they also respected each other.
That is very good advice.

In general, most people are perfectly willing to give advice and help. It is true that some like to provoke, and, indeed, troll. Try to become one of those who gives advice - or, listens and learns.

PRSI attracts debate, sometimes intensely so, but, so, too, do some of the other sub-forums. As flopticalcube says below, some sub-forums are a lot worse than others - I give many of these a miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flopticalcube View Post
You get used to it and, with time, can filter the nonsense from the gold. There is also the "ignore" list for the tiresome bores. Don't give up as there is much to be learned from being a regular member. The mods walk a fine line between removing obvious bs and continuing the flow of free discussion and it's not always easy, from a completely balanced perspective, to do this. Having said all that, some sub-forums are better than others.

Again, very good advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandboxGeneral View Post
The Mod Team relies heavily on user generated reports to reign in rules violations which include trolling. Sometimes trolling takes some time as we have to discuss the report for a day or two before a decision is made.

There are far too many posts each day for us to look at, we take care of the ones we see and rely on you the users for the rest.

My suggestion is to report those posts that you feel are trolling and/or violating the forum rules. Also choose your battles wisely and don't respond to those who are trolling. Rather ignore them, report them and move on to responding to users with a constructive attitude.
And more good advice worth heeding.

The advice to pick battles wisely is good advice. However, as ChristianJapan has said, sometimes a post hits a nerve (nasty misogynistic stuff leaves me seething), and it is difficult to avoid responding. If your blood is boiling, try to think about what exactly it is that you want to say, and give thought to how you wish to say it, too. That means addressing the argument (or witless prejudice) not the poster.

Having said all that, I joined (after having been a lurker for a few months) because I had recently 'switched' as the parlance has it, and had bought a MBP in 2008 as a birthday present to myself. I had questions, and this forum seemed a good place to seek and find answers. Then, I stayed, as it was interesting, sometimes good fun, and a good place to meet a wider variety of individuals than many others. Some of the forums & threads are good fun, and it is possible to meet people with shared interests and have some good, knowledgeable and enjoyable discussions in some of them. You can learn a lot, too, and not just about computers and technological stuff, (though that, too, is very interesting).

As a poster, I suppose the advice (needless to say, not always heeded by those, like myself, who may tender it) is to try to be a 'good citizen' online; try to criticise constructively; perhaps, offer remedies and answers to questions which may well have been asked a thousand times (because for everyone, there is always a first time to come across a problem that the world has long thought solved), and report those whom you think may be trolling or offensive.

Seriously, though, the best way to attempt to influence a change in atmosphere is for you to participate in the fora.

Meanwhile, best of luck with whatever you decide to do.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:31 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
ents like "I love how you're back-pedalling, hard."

- If you're pro-apple on these forums, you seem to get a lot of stick from a very vocal "APPLE ARE ALWAYS WRONG AND OUT TO GET US" section of the community. Which is ironic, really, for an Apple based forum.
This.

I rarely see people who actually like Apple on here, hence why I don't come here often anymore.

By reading Macrumors you'd think Apple made the crappiest products ever and were the worst company in history.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:55 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
Oh, I have no expectation of anything less, I just wanted to give the mod team a view of what it's like here for a newcomer - and to hope they might feel like doing something about it.
All feedback, both negative and positive is well received. As mentioned above, use the button where the post will be reviewed and action taken if deemed appropriate.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 01:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by chrono1081 View Post
This.

I rarely see people who actually like Apple on here, hence why I don't come here often anymore.

By reading Macrumors you'd think Apple made the crappiest products ever and were the worst company in history.
Not only that, but you'd
a) Think that Apple is doomed and falling apart
b) Are going very slow and uninnovative, despite having some really cool products this year
c) Think that steve jobs would never allow anything that apple is doing to be done
d) Following that, thinking that the world's richest company should center their future from decisions of a dead man
e) Think that apple are wrong and have very bad quality control, and are wrong when they try to enforce good quality control
f) Think that apple are too arrogant, but they are still wrong when they apologise
g) Think that Apple make billions of dollars from rabid and blind followers, despite the fact that they enjoy the products
h) Think that apple are wrong in removing CD drives from their latest computers, despite being the company that is a heavy advocate in ditching legacy products
i) Forget a simple business term that a product with a high price tag is only overpriced if it doesn't sell well. Apple sell a span of macs, iphones, ipads, and ipods. You'll think that they are super lucky in everything
j) Think that Apple get their fans from marketing. Not knowing that marketing also involves price, product quality, and the place it's sold. But you'll only acknowledge the adverts, but still think the products are overpriced, and you'll just make a fool of yourself with contradicting statements.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 01:19 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by chrono1081 View Post
This.

I rarely see people who actually like Apple on here, hence why I don't come here often anymore.

By reading Macrumors you'd think Apple made the crappiest products ever and were the worst company in history.
Exactly. It seems 'cool' to bash Apple and glorify Win8 and Android...
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 01:48 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by mrsir2009 View Post
Exactly. It seems 'cool' to bash Apple and glorify Win8 and Android...
I wonder if the opposite happens on Windows forums?
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 01:53 PM   #13
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I completely agree OP

Several points recently have really put me off this forum.

I've been using other forums a lot more the last few weeks.

Hopefully it will get better after getting so much worse.

Good luck to you
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 02:51 PM   #14
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I wonder if the opposite happens on Windows forums?
Somehow I can't see it... Perhaps it happens here because Apple is very mainstream these days, and people think "I'll be a badass hipster and talk down Apple's new operating system while seeing the light in another OS (Win8) that no one really likes... Coz I'm just so newage, fwd thinking and open minded, ya know?"
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by mrsir2009 View Post
Exactly. It seems 'cool' to bash Apple and glorify Win8 and Android...
To be fair, there are plenty of members here who take any opportunity to bash Win8 and Android and glorify Apple.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:41 PM   #16
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To be fair, there are plenty of members here who take any opportunity to bash Win8 and Android and glorify Apple.
Yeah, but that's pretty normal, considering this is an Apple forum.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:21 PM   #17
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Vote with your mouse (or other input device...). If you don't like a thread, find a new one. There is tremendous knowledge about all things Apple. Having owned a number of old macs (vast number dang it Apple, you should be comping me some computers as a usage bonus...) I drop into the old forums and I always learn something new. Now, if I want to argue politics, I'll find people who are just as wrong headed in their own way as I am. Everyone who signs up has an interest of some sort in the grand cult of Mac.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that MacRumors is like that dysfunctional family reunion. You know you're gonna go. You know you'll enjoy it. You know Uncle Fred will piss you off and Aunt Sally's gonna pinch your cheeks. Deal with it. They're family.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:25 PM   #18
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Welcome to the internet OP! Trolling is everywhere deal with it? :7
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 02:57 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by mrsir2009 View Post
Exactly. It seems 'cool' to bash Apple and glorify Win8 and Android...
What one may be perceived as "bashing" apple, another may perceive it as being objective between various platforms and the direction apple is going in.

It is possible to critique apple yet still enjoy their products. There are many here who have such a blind loyalty to apple, it is borderline annoying. I much prefer hearing from not these individuals, but those who utilize apple not out of this "blind loyalty", but rather as a preference that fits their current needs and have no qualms looking at other players in the industry.

It is the latter's opinion I care to hear.

Additionally, I have not really encountered those who actually always bash apple on these forums. Rather, I think it is those who think apple is the "end all be all" that gets offended at the notion of looking at other solutions and interpret it as bashing IMO.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 03:33 AM   #20
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What one may be perceived as "bashing" apple, another may perceive it as being objective between various platforms and the direction apple is going in.

It is possible to critique apple yet still enjoy their products. There are many here who have such a blind loyalty to apple, it is borderline annoying. I much prefer hearing from not these individuals, but those who utilize apple not out of this "blind loyalty", but rather as a preference that fits their current needs and have no qualms looking at other players in the industry.

It is the latter's opinion I care to hear.

Additionally, I have not really encountered those who actually always bash apple on these forums. Rather, I think it is those who think apple is the "end all be all" that gets offended at the notion of looking at other solutions and interpret it as bashing IMO.
What you all said is all logical but you have to be blind if you think that there aren't any trolls who mention getting other products and saying that apples is crap for the sake of annoying others.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 09:47 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by spork183 View Post
Vote with your mouse (or other input device...). If you don't like a thread, find a new one. There is tremendous knowledge about all things Apple. Having owned a number of old macs (vast number dang it Apple, you should be comping me some computers as a usage bonus...) I drop into the old forums and I always learn something new. Now, if I want to argue politics, I'll find people who are just as wrong headed in their own way as I am. Everyone who signs up has an interest of some sort in the grand cult of Mac.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that MacRumors is like that dysfunctional family reunion. You know you're gonna go. You know you'll enjoy it. You know Uncle Fred will piss you off and Aunt Sally's gonna pinch your cheeks. Deal with it. They're family.
Many good points here. The thing is (and probably why this thread is in this forum), where is the peacemaker who puts his arm around Uncle Fred's shoulders, like dragging a vaudeville performer offstage? The one who says "Yeah, Fred, you right, ok, so.. so Fred! let's go get another beer and try some of that lasagne..." and drags ol' Fred away from Ralph and Tony who are about to punch him out.

The mods are saying we have to report more posts if we expect moderation. I get that. Some of the rest of us are apparently thinking the party is aready too well chaperoned and should loosen up already. I could probably get that if the right thread came along. Beauty in the eye of the beholder, and all that.

So maybe you're right and it is more or less like a big family gathering, parts of it out of control and parts of it suffocatingly "managed". I still think this was more fun when there were fewer anti-Apple trolls here. I don't blame the mods for the appearance of trolls, that's not fair. Bottom line there, seems like the mods are right to say that the effective way to call out trolling is to report the post instead of replying to it. It's hard, sometimes. You're home using your iDevice of some sort, having a great time, you check into MacRumors and there's some thread with a hundred posts talking trash about something you bought that works flawlessly. Doesn't feel like family reunion. Feels like you got off the bus at the wrong stop on the way home and would have to pull a knife just to get to the police station.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:04 AM   #22
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What you all said is all logical but you have to be blind if you think that there aren't any trolls who mention getting other products and saying that apples is crap for the sake of annoying others.
It comes finally down to two options:
1) outgrow the trolls (I know, it can be hard)
2) check what tools/procedures the Spanish Inquisition developed and are not against the forum rules

But sirious: troll are behind every stone; just don't waste your time and argue. You will loose. That's what they want and why they are here. Passive resistance/ ignoring will help.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:29 AM   #23
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2) check what tools/procedures the Spanish Inquisition developed and are not against the forum rules
sirious

Quote:
1) outgrow the trolls (I know, it can be hard)
That is basically the only way but the problem is that a lot of people on this forum don't and feed the trolls instead.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:55 PM   #24
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This forum is well moderated and the trolls are down to a minimum. Yeah, there are a few Apple haters out there but there are certainly a few Apple fanboys to even it out.

At the end of the day, just because someone has an opinion that is different, doesn't mean they're trolling.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 12:57 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by chrono1081 View Post
This.

I rarely see people who actually like Apple on here, hence why I don't come here often anymore.

By reading Macrumors you'd think Apple made the crappiest products ever and were the worst company in history.
Completely disagree

Before it used to be love apple love apple and if u had an issue it was gtfo

Apple is the best go somewhere else!

What insane attitude is that?! Not constructive


The apple blind loyalists were destroying the forum!!!


Now we can be vocal about our dissatisfaction of apple without getting pounced on

To me apple trolls = blind apple loyalists
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