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Old Nov 16, 2012, 05:36 PM   #26
glocke12
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Pretty much. The government should be for the people, to enable a better society, not at the cost of people to service corporate entities.
Can you elaborate please? I interpret this to me that people should not work for large companies??? Is that what you mean?

Not able to quote everyone, so Im just going to touch on a few things that were mentioned.

"Land of the free":

We were never the land of the free. We have slavery, suppression of voting rights for women and minorities, and internment of an entire race due to their ethinic heritage (japanese americans in WWII) in our history, not to mention the wholesale slaughter of the indigenous people of this continent.

"I wonder what the Declaration of Independence would say about it:"


Well, according to some on this forum that is an outdated (or "living") document. In any case what of it ? That particular document has already been trampled to death. Just look at the patriot act and the NDAA.

"Although, if you were forced to pass a test in order to vote, the Republicans would never win another election."

And I wonder how many urbanites and inner city people who voted democrat the past two elections would pass that test.

Now, back to my original post. So, the general consensus is that we don't owe anything to the nation or community except the taxes we pay? What about those that benefit the most from those taxes and the programs they fund? The unemployed and the welfare recipients and those "tweeners" who have finished high school but have not yet found employment? You don't think they should have to contribute?

Believe it or not, my feeling is that we all need to contribute to society in more ways than paying taxes and I would favor mandatory enlistment in a civilian corps or military service.


On voting...You guys are all really ok with a large number of people voting who have no clue as to how their government works, what is in the constitution, and in some cases who the candidates are and what their political stances are?? I am not, and while being ignorant is their right, their ignorance affects all of us. Would you guys still be singing this tune if Romney one because a bunch of ignorant white rednecks voted him in???

Last edited by glocke12; Nov 16, 2012 at 07:11 PM.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 06:04 PM   #27
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Without tax revolt, the US would still belong to England...
Ha ha, really? Clearly you failed third grade history, or you'd know it was actually "taxation without representation" that was the colonists' problem. You know, the idea of having elected representatives in order to have a say in government? The actual tax was never the issue. Most logical people understand the need for taxes.

Actually, I might be in favor of testing before being able to vote after all.

edit: zioxide beat me to the response. Should have finished reading the thread, but that post made my eyes light up.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 06:28 PM   #28
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"taxation without representation" that was the colonists' problem.
It wouldn't have lasted anyway. It would have lasted longer, just not indefinitely. It's not like Australia and New Zealand pay tax to England. I'm never sure what motivates his responses. It seemed like he was putting in "somewhat" more effort for a while, but they've returned to one liners.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 06:38 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Now, back to my original post. So, the general consensus is that we don't owe anything to the nation or community except the taxes we pay? What about those that benefit the most from those taxes and the programs they fund? The unemployed and the welfare recipients and those "tweeners" who have finished high school but have not yet found employment? You don't think they should have to contribute?
Tweeners who've finished high school have the rest of their working lives to contribute through taxes or volunteer service. I don't need to ensure in the couple of years out of high school that they contribute. I am content to believe that over their lives, the vast majority will contribute.

As for the unemployed and welfare recipients, I'm not sure what your point is. If they put in two-four years of service after high school, would that make being unemployed or on welfare later in life okay? Would that make conservatives less likely to brush them off as takers? I really doubt that would be the case.

If we had another thread with a woman on welfare with her 50" TV in the background, would you then argue for her and say, "She did her national service. She deserves high def."
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 06:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
On voting...You guys are all really ok with a large number of people voting who have no clue as to how their government works, what is in the constitution, and in some cases who the candidates are and what their political stances are?? I am not, and while being ignorant is their right, their ignorance affects all of us.
There has always been, and will always be, people voting who are basing their vote on something most people would find ridiculous. Are you suggesting this is a new phenomena that needs to be looked at in light of the recent election? Otherwise I'm not sure what the point of bringing it up is. Imposing prerequisites for being able to vote is never going to happen, even in whatever dystopia you're imagining. Ignorance is bipartisan.

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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Would you guys still be singing this tune if Romney one because a bunch of ignorant white rednecks voted him in???
Well, they certainly tried.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 07:02 PM   #31
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Slavery was outlawed 150 years ago. However, I think Americorps is a great program and one that allows young kids a chance to grow as well as experience different aspects of America. Roosevelt's "Tree Army" the Civilian Conservation Corps did a fantastic job in creating some of America's favorite recreation places. I think it would be great to bring a similar program back. Our public lands need assistance. I don't think public service is equal to military service and the two should not be connected.

Nullification of Constitutionally given rights is never gonna happen, it's just another wingnut's wet dream.
Maybe not on the same scale as the CCC, but I just finished a similar Americorps program out in Montana working on lands with the Forest Service, Park service, etc. building trails and working on other various projects. I know a bunch of other states have these types of programs as well (mostly all the western states and some in the east too). It would be cool though if something on the scale of the CCC would be brought back for a while.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 07:10 PM   #32
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There has always been, and will always be, people voting who are basing their vote on something most people would find ridiculous. Are you suggesting this is a new phenomena that needs to be looked at in light of the recent election?
Not at all. It has always bothered me that many people I know vote with their hearts and not with their minds, have no clue what is in the constitution, and in some cases do not even know who is actually running for what.


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Originally Posted by Queen of Spades View Post
Otherwise I'm not sure what the point of bringing it up is. Imposing prerequisites for being able to vote is never going to happen, even in whatever dystopia you're imagining. Ignorance is bipartisan.
true..but it makes a good theoretical debate.

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Well, they certainly tried.

Last edited by balamw; Nov 16, 2012 at 08:01 PM. Reason: cleaned up quote
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 09:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by latergator116 View Post
Maybe not on the same scale as the CCC, but I just finished a similar Americorps program out in Montana working on lands with the Forest Service, Park service, etc. building trails and working on other various projects. I know a bunch of other states have these types of programs as well (mostly all the western states and some in the east too). It would be cool though if something on the scale of the CCC would be brought back for a while.
That's really cool! Future generations will thank you. It's great to see federal funds spent in the US on improving our heritage.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:22 AM   #34
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Without tax revolt, the US would still belong to England...
Right, because we all know how all colonies that didn't go to war against England are still under British control.

Oh... except India. They got rid of England through peaceful actions.
Oh... and Australia. The British Parliament said fine, have your commonwealth.
Oh... and everyone else.

Sometimes the world turns and changes for the better without spilling lakes of blood in revolutionary wars, and bad ideas are just gradually and quietly dismantled, like communism in the Soviet Union. Guess you didn't get the memo.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 03:31 AM   #35
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Right, because we all know how all colonies that didn't go to war against England are still under British control.

Oh... except India. They got rid of England through peaceful actions.
Oh... and Australia. The British Parliament said fine, have your commonwealth.
Oh... and everyone else.

Sometimes the world turns and changes for the better without spilling lakes of blood in revolutionary wars, and bad ideas are just gradually and quietly dismantled, like communism in the Soviet Union. Guess you didn't get the memo.
The Soviet Union certainly wasn't quietly dismantled. Many of those countries are still trying to find their footing after decades of oppression.

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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
On voting...You guys are all really ok with a large number of people voting who have no clue as to how their government works, what is in the constitution, and in some cases who the candidates are and what their political stances are?? I am not, and while being ignorant is their right, their ignorance affects all of us. Would you guys still be singing this tune if Romney one because a bunch of ignorant white rednecks voted him in???
I thought that learning about how the government works was taught in high/middle school?

And do you think that people are going to turn out in droves to become voter certified, pay a fee, to take a civics test to vote? If you think a low number of people vote now, make them jump through hoops and see what happens.

And to be fair, it's not just "ignorant rednecks" voting for Mitt Romney. My girlfriend voted for him based on her opposition to Obamacare and certain tax increases that will directly affect her father and family.

(imagine how I felt voting for Obama, directly against her personal interests)
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:47 AM   #36
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What responsibility does a citizen have to his nation?

None.

"Honour thy father and thy mother ....", and that's it.

If your country proves itself to you as you mature, you are free to stay and support it.

Otherwise you may choose to move on.

At least in a totally free World.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:55 AM   #37
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I'm all for mandatory service, as long as you can "roll your own". This January I will be going on my third disaster recovery trip (I basically give up my winter break each year, gladly), I feel that it is an experience that everyone should have an opportunity to share as it really renews your faith in community, and frankly, humanity itself.

Nothing beats stale cynicism like going out and helping those in need.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:55 AM   #38
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And do you think that people are going to turn out in droves to become voter certified, pay a fee, to take a civics test to vote? If you think a low number of people vote now, make them jump through hoops and see what happens.
It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks about this because it would be completely unconstitutional.

Quote:
And to be fair, it's not just "ignorant rednecks" voting for Mitt Romney. My girlfriend voted for him based on her opposition to Obamacare and certain tax increases that will directly affect her father and family.
Guess your girlfriend didn't want control and the right to do as she sees fit with her own body.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:12 AM   #39
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It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks about this because it would be completely unconstitutional.
Well the Constitution doesn't serve as the basis for a discussion which isn't centered on whether something is Constitutional or not.

Besides, the Constitution can be amended.

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Guess your girlfriend didn't want control and the right to do as she sees fit with her own body.
Well let's keep this on topic and not discuss my girlfriends political views. I was simply pointing out that there are a myriad of individuals who vote on many different things for many different reasons.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:30 AM   #40
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Guess your girlfriend didn't want control and the right to do as she sees fit with her own body.
Because you can't vote unless you agree with every single policy of a candidate.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:09 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Can you elaborate please? I interpret this to me that people should not work for large companies??? Is that what you mean?
Nope, that's more a question of personal ethics/choice.

I meant more in terms of regulation, capitalism left to run wild goes lop-sided and when wealth is concentrated. Govenment often seems to focus on helping out big buissness, we give subsidies and go well out of our way to make it easier for a few shareholders to reap vast profits when ultimately all this achieves is a concentration of wealth creating a false economy of circlejerk transactions between the 1%.

Why are we ok with such corporate welfare but there's outrage when someone falsely claims benefits or just isn't as motivated to get a job as we may like.

I've always just seen that sort of hysteria as a blind to cover the massive social injustices we should be mad about, being nitpicky about personal entitlement is frankly utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, we have much bigger fish to fry.

I grew up in a welfare state and it's had a pretty profound impact on my life experience and my outlook on life now. My father was laid off while my mother was dying of cancer and if there wasn't the support in place that there was I can't imagine how we would have managed.

Myself personally I've needed a significant amount of healthcare in the past few years, healthcare I'd have never been able to afford myself, that wouldn't have been covered by private insurance and that having had enabled me to be in a position where I'm now basically set for life. That doesn't make me think "oh well gee I could lay about and do nothing and screw the system" it makes me thankful and proud that I live in a society that takes care of those in need, it makes me feel good about paying taxes knowing that it's not merely propping up a government I did not consent to.

That's a bit of a ramble and not entirely on topic, but that's basically how I feel about society, my role within it and the world that I'd much rather live within.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:15 AM   #42
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Nope, that's more a question of personal ethics/choice.

I meant more in terms of regulation, capitalism left to run wild goes lop-sided and when wealth is concentrated. Govenment often seems to focus on helping out big buissness, we give subsidies and go well out of our way to make it easier for a few shareholders to reap vast profits when ultimately all this achieves is a concentration of wealth creating a false economy of circlejerk transactions between the 1%.

Why are we ok with such corporate welfare but there's outrage when someone falsely claims benefits or just isn't as motivated to get a job as we may like.

I've always just seen that sort of hysteria as a blind to cover the massive social injustices we should be mad about, being nitpicky about personal entitlement is frankly utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, we have much bigger fish to fry.

I grew up in a welfare state and it's had a pretty profound impact on my life experience and my outlook on life now. My father was laid off while my mother was dying of cancer and if there wasn't the support in place that there was I can't imagine how we would have managed.

Myself personally I've needed a significant amount of healthcare in the past few years, healthcare I'd have never been able to afford myself, that wouldn't have been covered by private insurance and that having had enabled me to be in a position where I'm now basically set for life. That doesn't make me think "oh well gee I could lay about and do nothing and screw the system" it makes me thankful and proud that I live in a society that takes care of those in need, it makes me feel good about paying taxes knowing that it's not merely propping up a government I did not consent to.

That's a bit of a ramble and not entirely on topic, but that's basically how I feel about society, my role within it and the world that I'd much rather live within.
Very well put

Now stop leeching =P
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:27 AM   #43
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I think we need to go to national service enjoyed by all. If we had the equivalent of a draft, I think as a nation, we'd be more hesitant about launching ourselves into foreign adventures. And if we do, lets share the pain among families. Right now if you don't happen to know someone or have a family member in the volunteer service it is the unknown "them" who are suffering and dieing.
I'm in the minority on this issue even amongst the military. I do not want to see required service. I do not want my life in the hands of someone who doesn't want to be there.
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