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Old Nov 18, 2012, 03:54 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
and countered multiple times. You can keep saying the same thing over and over again. Does not change the facts.

We have proof from other companies in the past that the higher ups used bankrupcty as a threat to lower their pay (to even going that way) and then giving themselves bonuses for "reducing" labor cost.

so given that your points hold no water. Just the same thing over and over again.

They did pay raises and not like they where high quility for other companies wanting to take.

You have not countered anything I've said
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 04:33 PM   #202
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I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm curious. Is this the consensus here - that companies exist to employ people? Put another way - the success/failure of a company can be measured by its payroll?
Companies exist to make money for their owners
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:08 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
and countered multiple times. You can keep saying the same thing over and over again. Does not change the facts.

We have proof from other companies in the past that the higher ups used bankrupcty as a threat to lower their pay (to even going that way) and then giving themselves bonuses for "reducing" labor cost.

so given that your points hold no water. Just the same thing over and over again.

They did pay raises and not like they where high quility for other companies wanting to take.
I agree this has been suggested and supported in other instances but it does not appear to be the case here. This company was in serious financial trouble.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:19 PM   #204
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I agree this has been suggested and supported in other instances but it does not appear to be the case here. This company was in serious financial trouble.
But how do you expect the union to take management seriously if they keep on giving themselves raises despite being in financial trouble?
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:38 PM   #205
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But how do you expect the union to take management seriously if they keep on giving themselves raises despite being in financial trouble?
And that's where the actual issue with the management raises is. As it's been pointed out, it's about the moral.

It's not an actual money issue, it's a morality issue.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:39 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
I agree this has been suggested and supported in other instances but it does not appear to be the case here.
Actually, it does look appear to be the case here.

Quote:
The Teamsters, which has 6,700 members at Hostess, said it played an instrumental role in ousting Hostess’s previous chief executive, Brian J. Driscoll, this year after the board tripled his compensation to $2.55 million. The union also hired a financial consultant, Harry J. Wilson, who had worked on the General Motors restructuring.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/11/...-liquidate/?hp
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 05:47 PM   #207
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But how do you expect the union to take management seriously if they keep on giving themselves raises despite being in financial trouble?
It's stupid and its reckless. But that alone did not cause the company to collapse. I'm not justifying it...I think overpaid executives when a company is doing poorly is stupid and immoral, but the reason Hostess fell apart is more complex.




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Actually, it does look appear to be the case here.
Again, that doesn't explain why the company failed.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:01 PM   #208
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Again, that doesn't explain why the company failed.
I wasn't trying to explain why the company failed.

I am trying to point out the disconnect some failing companies have with executive compensation, and why workers can get fed up after making concessions while seeing little sacrificed by higher-ups.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:03 PM   #209
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AlaskaMoose is both retired military and a current public employee.

He has healthcare options up the proverbial wazoo.

Yet for some reason chooses to buy into the right-wing myths about Obamacare, like this 267% increase he keeps talking about.
When I retired from the military I had the option of buying what was called Tri-Care for my family and me, but I opted for BlueCross/Blueshield through my new employer since it was cheaper back then, and also because there were no VA hospitals nearby, just a clinic. I could switch to the now cheaper military care for my wife and me and save some cash, but I don't want to go through the long lines at the nearest military hospital. Last year I was paying just under $100.00 per month, and this year just under $400.00.
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Last edited by AlaskaMoose; Nov 18, 2012 at 06:18 PM.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:06 PM   #210
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When I retired from the military I had the option of buying what was called Tri-Care for my family and me, but I opted for BlueCross/Blueshield through my new employer since it was cheaper back then, and also because there were no VA hospitals nearby, just a clinic. I could switch to the now cheaper military care for my wife and me and save some cash, but I don't want to go through the long lines at the nearest military hospital.
Like I said, healthcare options up the wazoo.

Care to substantiate that supposed 267% increase?

Some of us would like a little proof of this rather questionable claim.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:19 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
When I retired from the military I had the option of buying what was called Tri-Care for my family and me, but I opted for BlueCross/Blueshield through my new employer since it was cheaper back then, and also because there were no VA hospitals nearby, just a clinic. I could switch to the now cheaper military care for my wife and me and save some cash, but I don't want to go through the long lines at the nearest military hospital.
Is tricare west different? I go to the same doctor as a colleague, I use BC/BS and he uses tricare. We only go to the VA for meds.
His wife uses Regent which is a not affiliated with any government agency but accepts tricare.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
That's interesting.

Starting January my (and every other university employee who opts for the plan) Blue Cross cost is being reduced $172 per month for the same coverage I have currently.

$172 more in my pocket ... every month.

Thank you President Obama.*




*Actually, I have no idea if Obama is behind the reduction in cost ... much like I suspect you have no idea if he is behind your increases. But he is a convenient person to assign responsibility to, either way.
Mine went down too. However there are some things that are buried deep and some on the surface.

Having health professionals in the immediate family here is what they are saying.
Recovery times are just about cut in half. Get them in and get them out, ready or not.
Rehab treatments that are allowed are reduced.
Home care follow ups reduced
equipment allowances reduced
These items are driven by Obamacare and are saving the insurance companies hundreds of millions.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:25 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by bruinsrme View Post
Is tricare west different? I go to the same doctor as a colleague, I use BC/BS and he uses tricare. We only go to the VA for meds.
His wife uses Regent which is a not affiliated with any government agency but accepts tricare.

----------


Mine went down too. However there are some things that are buried deep and some on the surface.

Having health professionals in the immediate family here is what they are saying.
Recovery times are just about cut in half. Get them in and get them out, ready or not.
Rehab treatments that are allowed are reduced.
Home care follow ups reduced
equipment allowances reduced
These items are driven by Obamacare and are saving the insurance companies hundreds of millions.
I haven't used Tri-Care at all since I retired from the military. But I do go to the military pharmacy for meds. It's possible that the military sends a bill to my insurance, but I don't really know. Lately I have been looking into Tri-Care as an option, but since I am planning to retire again about six years from now this is not a priority.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:29 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
I haven't used Tri-Care at all since I retired from the military. But I do go to the military pharmacy for meds. It's possible that the military sends a bill to my insurance, but I don't really know. Lately I have been looking into Tri-Care as an option, but since I am planning to retire again about six years from now this is not a priority.
Please do yourself and me a favor and at least look into Tricare.
You earned the benefit please at least see if it is a viable option.

Here is a start, see if there are any providers in your area.

http://www.triwest.com/OnlineProvide...y/default.aspx
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:41 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by bruinsrme View Post
Having health professionals in the immediate family here is what they are saying.
Recovery times are just about cut in half. Get them in and get them out, ready or not.
Rehab treatments that are allowed are reduced.
Home care follow ups reduced
equipment allowances reduced
These items are driven by Obamacare and are saving the insurance companies hundreds of millions.

Can you substantiate the claim with something more than hearsay?

It would certainly give your argument more weight.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 06:44 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by AlaskaMoose View Post
When I retired from the military I had the option of buying what was called Tri-Care for my family and me, but I opted for BlueCross/Blueshield through my new employer since it was cheaper back then, and also because there were no VA hospitals nearby, just a clinic. I could switch to the now cheaper military care for my wife and me and save some cash, but I don't want to go through the long lines at the nearest military hospital. Last year I was paying just under $100.00 per month, and this year just under $400.00.
Sounds like you are describing tricare prime where you have to go to a military facility first. Tricare standard allows you to go to a provider other than the military hospitals. Also I believe they have out of network coverage.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 07:40 PM   #216
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I wasn't trying to explain why the company failed.

I am trying to point out the disconnect some failing companies have with executive compensation, and why workers can get fed up after making concessions while seeing little sacrificed by higher-ups.
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you on that. My point was that neither the executive salary or the strike itself could be the cause, in large, for the outcome. Perhaps a tipping point or even something that sped it up, but that ship was sinking like the Titanic. I could completely understand workers being unhappy and an ethical corporation, when in a position as such, should, in my opinion, have executives offer to take pay cuts to show they are not completely disconnected from the workers and to promote a more positive atmosphere.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 07:49 PM   #217
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oh it is the unions fault. Not the greed of the higher not wanting to take a pay cut from there massivley over inflated salaries. Starting with the CEO.
How is it greed by the CEO. Didn't the entire company go out of business, so everyone got cut? Therefore all salaries are $0 including the CEO? Good thing the Unions didn't give in. It is just like some unions to choose a 100% pay cut over a 10%.Now you and I via taxes get to pay for their unemployment.

Everyone like to blame big business and fails to recognize that CEOs and corporatoins are not this Evil entity.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 08:20 PM   #218
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Everyone like to blame big business and fails to recognize that CEOs and corporatoins are not this Evil entity.
The point has not been to call corporations, big business or Hostess "evil" entities.

People have been pointing out specific practices that helped lead to the company's downfall.

For you to miss these points and only see "everyone" blaming big business is a frankly remarkable example of selective perception on your part.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 09:06 PM   #219
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How is it greed by the CEO. Didn't the entire company go out of business, so everyone got cut? Therefore all salaries are $0 including the CEO? Good thing the Unions didn't give in. It is just like some unions to choose a 100% pay cut over a 10%.Now you and I via taxes get to pay for their unemployment.

Everyone like to blame big business and fails to recognize that CEOs and corporatoins are not this Evil entity.
It's greed because while Hostess was sinking, all the executives did was increase their pay while asking the unions to take a cut.

It would be like giving Captain Smith a raise after his actions directly lead to the Titanic hitting an iceburg and then keep on giving him a raise as the Titanic is sinking, people jumping overboard, etc.

The fact is the executives were giving themselves raises while their inept decisions lead Hostess down the tube.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:14 PM   #220
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One report I read said that the union that went on strike accounted for only 30% of the work force.
Quote:
Then last week thousands of members of the Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers International Union went on strike after rejecting the company's latest contract offer. The bakers union represents about 30 percent of the company's workforce.

By that time, the company had reached a contract agreement with its largest union, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which this week urged the bakery union to hold a secret ballot on whether to continue striking. Although many bakery workers decided to cross picket lines this week, Hostess said it wasn't enough to keep operations at normal levels.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/twink...e-sale-hostess

So why not just offer the same deal to both unions?
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:23 PM   #221
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Sounds like you are describing tricare prime where you have to go to a military facility first. Tricare standard allows you to go to a provider other than the military hospitals. Also I believe they have out of network coverage.
Yes it does. But I don't want to go from Bluesheild/Bluecross to the inferior Tri-care. Yes, I have to pay a lot more for what I have now, but I am not limited to local medical specialists. For example, since medical service is so expensive in Alaska, my insurance allows me to travel to other States for medical service as long as the service is cheaper over there. Also, while being treated over here the team of doctors are allowed to communicate with doctor teams of my choice over there via teleconferences and such to help with my treatment.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:43 PM   #222
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This is a good read.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/1...ostess-Bankery
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 10:50 PM   #223
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and that proves the bad faith and theif. Sorry but this proves pretty much all eric arguments wrong. they were doing it in bad faith so no the union was right to say **** you to management. Now it would be nice if they would go after the higher ups and charge them for the crap they are doing. They belong in jail.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 11:10 PM   #224
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I don't hate factory workers, per say, if the appropriate people are filling the jobs (ie. 18-mid 20s). The only time I have a problem with factory workers is when they try to make a life career out of it and then demand outrageous wages (or pensions) as if they are doing you a favor by working the line.
What a completely ignorant thing to say. You seem to think that all people are cut out to move up to management positions or some highly skilled job, and that just isn't the case. Many people are not management material. Many people have issues which keep them from becoming highly skilled. What do you suggest those people should do? Just die in the street?
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 01:44 AM   #225
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This thread perfectly encapsulates everything that is wrong with our country and economy. There is clearly something wrong and everyone is immediately polarized and pointing fingers. This is clearly a much more complex issue than what everyone is making it out to be, yet we seem content in dumbing it down into a us vs them. management vs blue collars. Republicans vs Democrats. High labor rates, health care costs, and pensions and the such are not the single reason this company failed. They are symptoms of a failing system. When our economy was strong and produced true wealth these were not the gargantuan issues that they are now.

We've lost our competitive edge in the world. Other economies and labor forces can now achieve things once thought only achievable by industrialized nations lead by the USA. That is gone. FoxConn is a shining example of that. China used to only be able to produce inferior toys, and downright awful pencils (who remembers those made in china pencils that disintegrated in sharpeners, and whose erasers only colored paper pink?). That's not to say that China or other countries deserve to be inferior... But resting on our laurels and a lack of foresight allowed us to DO NOTHING while our edge (not necessarily lead) was chipped away.

I just wish we had real leadership in this country willing to admit that the baby is ugly......downright hideous.... And then put us on a course correction.
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