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Old Nov 19, 2012, 08:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
...I just wanted to give the mod team a view of what it's like here for a newcomer - and to hope they might feel like doing something about it.
In addition to the rules, the system for reporting problems, and cleaning up problems we see during our own forum browsing, what do you suggest the moderators could do? Keep in mind that there are over 760,000 members and thousands of new posts every day.

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...

The mods are saying we have to report more posts if we expect moderation. I get that...
Just to be clear, we do moderate problems if we happen to see them ourselves, even if no report has been made. But with so many new posts every day, we rely on members' eyes and ears for help.

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...At the end of the day, just because someone has an opinion that is different, doesn't mean they're trolling.
This is a good point. Some reports of trolling that come in seem to be about differences of opinions, not real trolling. It's fine to state your opinion strongly, and to call out other members on the facts and their opinions. It's something else to post specifically to rile up other members.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 10:27 AM   #27
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Actually I think that creating the alternatives to iOS forum has reduced the blatant anti-Apple trolling, and somewhat to my surprise I find myself visiting it occasionally because the discussions are usually informative albeit partisan. The irony now is that is one posts criticisms about Android or Google in that subforum, one is accused of being a troll. It is as though 'Alternatives to iOS' is being read by some as 'Opposition to iOS'.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 12:41 PM   #28
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There will always be trolls

There's no way around it. Learn to recognize them and avoid reading their posts. Flag if you feel they deserve it. The moderators can only do so much and like they have said, try to walk a fine line between allowing free minded discussions and keeping threads from devolving into a version of craigslists "rants and raves." Peruse that and you'll see that there is no shortage of people who have nothing better to do with their time than spew hatred and bigotry. It should come as no surprise that Apple haters congregate here. Apple tends to bring that out in some people. I don't know why. I guess it's a bias thing. In my limited experience here, there is more good discussion here than bad, but it doesn't take much bad to leave a bad taste in your mouth. Like a local blog, I have learned to not read comments by certain individuals whose point of view I find offensive. That blogs moderator tried to do something about it by banning one in particular and consequently he is now being compared to ... anybody want to take a guess? Yes, it's the Nazi! It's always the Nazi, it's the go to comparison when you don't agree with someone's point of view. I hope you, OP, stick it out and find some intelligent discussions to partake in.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 01:20 PM   #29
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The shame of this is the lost opportunities here. This post represents dozens if not hundreds of other potential new members that may never join. Then of the new members that do join, how many would feel compelled to donate? Lost revenue stream there. Not that this is about money, but the staff here should realize that this is a real issue and does affect a bottom line as well as user's experience.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 01:57 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Scrub175 View Post
The shame of this is the lost opportunities here. This post represents dozens if not hundreds of other potential new members that may never join. Then of the new members that do join, how many would feel compelled to donate? Lost revenue stream there. Not that this is about money, but the staff here should realize that this is a real issue and does affect a bottom line as well as user's experience.
I wish people would stop joining, this place is far to crowded as it is.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 01:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Scrub175 View Post
The shame of this is the lost opportunities here. This post represents dozens if not hundreds of other potential new members that may never join. Then of the new members that do join, how many would feel compelled to donate? Lost revenue stream there. Not that this is about money, but the staff here should realize that this is a real issue and does affect a bottom line as well as user's experience.
Believe me, the staff realises that trolling is a problem. It's without question one of the hardest areas to define. We discuss it continually. Feel free to give us some concrete suggestions and examples.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 02:23 PM   #32
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Believe me, the staff realises that trolling is a problem. It's without question one of the hardest areas to define. We discuss it continually. Feel free to give us some concrete suggestions and examples.
One area that draws my ire is the attempt to use the other OS forum as a vehicle to bash apple products. I understand there are apple device owners that are multi platform device users, but the real obvious threads are titled why apple doesn't this or that. We don't need that here. I understand keeping dialogue about other devices in this community but those folks have an agenda not seeking or passing on knowledge about there given non apple device.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 02:26 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Scrub175 View Post
One area that draws my ire is the attempt to use the other OS forum as a vehicle to bash apple products. I understand there are apple device owners that are multi platform device users, but the real obvious threads are titled why apple doesn't this or that. We don't need that here. I understand keeping dialogue about other devices in this community but those folks have an agenda not seeking or passing on knowledge about there given non apple device.
Yeah, that kind of trolling is irritating, and you'll find it on both sides of the fence. Report it when you see it. As a dedicated user of more than one platform, I have a personal interest in keeping the platform X vs platform Y discussions healthy.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 02:28 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Scrub175 View Post
One area that draws my ire is the attempt to use the other OS forum as a vehicle to bash apple products. I understand there are apple device owners that are multi platform device users, but the real obvious threads are titled why apple doesn't this or that. We don't need that here. I understand keeping dialogue about other devices in this community but those folks have an agenda not seeking or passing on knowledge about there given non apple device.
That's why we have the Alternatives forum A discussion about other devices compared to Apple devices is perfectly reasonable.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 02:58 PM   #35
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That's why we have the Alternatives forum A discussion about other devices compared to Apple devices is perfectly reasonable.
I don't think he was talking about "discussions" but if you choose to call bashing of either platform a discussion then no one can stop you. I, however, see some of those so-called discussions as an open forum for bashing ... ergo, trolling.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 02:59 PM   #36
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...I, however, see some of those so-called discussions as an open forum for bashing ... ergo, trolling.
...and that's exactly the type of "discussion" you can report, so we can do something about it.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 03:02 PM   #37
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...and that's exactly the type of "discussion" you can report, so we can do something about it.
I report my fair share as I see them and see fit, of course. I see no reason to moderate all threads though in a sense that makes me have to go out of my way to view ones I would otherwise pass up. I leave that to moderators.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 03:49 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by jessica. View Post
...I leave that to moderators.
If we see them, we deal with them. But of course you've been around long enough to know that with thousands of new posts daily, there's no way we can do it all ourselves. The post reports are a bigger help than you can imagine, and we're grateful for all of them. We just hope members "see fit" to continue to report.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 09:32 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by jessica. View Post
I don't think he was talking about "discussions" but if you choose to call bashing of either platform a discussion then no one can stop you. I, however, see some of those so-called discussions as an open forum for bashing ... ergo, trolling.
Thanks. Exactly. The threads in question generally don't have anything to do with another system but bash apple. This is an apple enthusiasts site, with the understanding that not everyone has all apple devices and like the community here to discuss other systems. The threads were why apple was in trouble. Or why iOS is stale. No mention of comparisons to other devices. Simply an avenue to bash apple under the protection of the "other OS" forum. It's a handful of usual suspects that get reported and nothing done.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 03:01 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Scrub175 View Post
...It's a handful of usual suspects that get reported and nothing done.
We try to err on the side of caution in any situation where the opinion expressed can be the member's true opinion. Trolling is posting something for the sole purpose of riling other members up and trying to cause problems. Quite a few post reports come in where it seems pretty clear that the member sending the report simply disagrees with the opinion being expressed, or simply doesn't think that subject X or Y should be allowed on MacRumors.

But even in these cases, where we believe the report only shows a difference of opinion, we discuss, note the complaint, and monitor the member if we see complaints that seem to show a pattern. Since trolling can be very subtle, and "good" trolls perfect the art of flying just under the rules radar, it can take time to have documented enough of a pattern to justify a reaction. Also, since moderation is escalated, we start off with reminders, then warnings - and other members don't see those. Eventually we do escalate to time-outs and finally a permaban, but like I say, we try very hard not to censor. We strive to let the contrary opinions be heard, even in cases where the member's rhetoric is perhaps not particularly advanced (that is, in cases where the way the member words his/her opinion only makes matters worse).

And just so it's clear - we allow discussions that aren't positive to Apple.

One way members can help is by challenging the content of suspected troll posts. It surprises us that members report someone for not backing up a controversial opinion with a citation/link to proof, when no one in the thread has challenged the member to do so. The rules clearly state that if you're asked to back up your statement with proof but don't do so, the moderators can remove your post. But unless a member challenges the statement in the thread, there's nothing for us to moderate. What we do see happen is that members start to name-call or insult the suspected troll. They start to attack the member and not the content of the post. All that does is put the focus on them, and not on what might be the real problem. So this is one area where member strategy would make it much easier for the mod team to catch trolls with their pants down, so to speak.

One more thing. If you report a post and nothing was done, there's a reason. We wish that there were a semi-automatic response system built into the report system, because we would like to be able to give feedback when we decide not to act on a post report. We believe this would help members understand moderation better, and would lead to less dissatisfaction. But there isn't such a system, and it would simply be too time-consuming to write individual PMs in these cases. So if you report something and nothing is done, you can PM a mod or admin, or send a contact, and we'll let you know why we chose not to act. Since no moderation was done, there are no privacy issues that prevent us from being specific. You might very well get a response letting you know that we're monitoring the situation. In those cases, the more reports we get, the quicker we can build a case. I understand that it's frustrating not to see anything happen when you report. It's frustrating for us to spend so much time discussing post reports in order to do the best possible job, only to have members make comments about how we don't do anything when something is reported. So please trust us when we say that every single report is important where trolling is concerned. Trolling is a pattern, we need to build our case over time, and all the reports we can document are important. The alternative is just to ban anyone we suspect of trolling, and that would create an atmosphere of censorship. We're not gonna do that.

Feel free to ask more about this, the mods and I are happy to explain more about moderation and trolling. It's without a doubt the hardest part of the job, the one that we spend the most time discussing, and the one where members can help us the most. We are very very careful not to censor unpopular opinions, and sometimes that can mean that we allow someone who turns out to be a troll too much leeway. But we do try to get them in the end!
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:24 PM   #41
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It's a handful of usual suspects that get reported and nothing done.
The News section I kind of just assume allows a little more trolling, that's OK. I know any news with Samsung will bring out certain users, the SAME users as in every Samsung thread.

Same with legal threads. There's a whole cadre of posters who aren't nearly as smart as they think they are, but those types of threads in the News section just facilitate arguments ... again, I generally avoid.

Side note: those people have pretty pathetic lives, but hey, it's +their+ time. They're easy to ID by name - I won't, but we all know who they are.

Where I kind of draw the line with the "usual suspects" is when they filter down into the non-News threads. We're helping new users, trying to solve problems with devices, or OS updates, or having fun talking about new usage models, new Apps, etc., and they do a drive by trolling "That wouldn't happen with non-Apple product X"

I've turned in a few of the users who contribute ZERO to ANY thread on here and the mods did give them a temporary time out, a week or so. They're back, and back at it, but seem to be self-contained in the News section, so have at it.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 04:33 PM   #42
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The News section I kind of just assume allows a little more trolling, that's OK. I know any news with Samsung will bring out certain users, the SAME users as in every Samsung thread.

Same with legal threads. There's a whole cadre of posters who aren't nearly as smart as they think they are, but those types of threads in the News section just facilitate arguments ... again, I generally avoid.

Side note: those people have pretty pathetic lives, but hey, it's +their+ time. They're easy to ID by name - I won't, but we all know who they are.

Where I kind of draw the line with the "usual suspects" is when they filter down into the non-News threads. We're helping new users, trying to solve problems with devices, or OS updates, or having fun talking about new usage models, new Apps, etc., and they do a drive by trolling "That wouldn't happen with non-Apple product X"

I've turned in a few of the users who contribute ZERO to ANY thread on here and the mods did give them a temporary time out, a week or so. They're back, and back at it, but seem to be self-contained in the News section, so have at it.
The news section does get the passerby that throws out the brand x is better stronger faster, I agree. My main concern was the use of the alt forum as the platform to rally support against apple rather than tap into the multi device users as resources for help. But hey it's apparent the policing as stated above. If I don't like it I don't have to donate next time to the forum.

There are some very brilliant folks here and I love to read about users from all parts of the world. It really is eye opening and neat to see perspectives outside our own bubbles. I do value that here.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:51 PM   #43
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The news section does get the passerby that throws out the brand x is better stronger faster, I agree. My main concern was the use of the alt forum as the platform to rally support against apple rather than tap into the multi device users as resources for help. But hey it's apparent the policing as stated above. If I don't like it I don't have to donate next time to the forum.

There are some very brilliant folks here and I love to read about users from all parts of the world. It really is eye opening and neat to see perspectives outside our own bubbles. I do value that here.
Well, said, I agree. Also about the terrific contributions from all over the world ... speaking of, I didn't even notice your location when I quoted you the first time What's up fellow Floridian
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 06:53 PM   #44
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Add to that the folks that immediately jump to a conclusion that they're a genius and everyone else is stupid. If folks would drop the attitude this would be an instantly friendlier place. People are so quick to make a snappy snarky reply without trying to help.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 07:04 PM   #45
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Well, said, I agree. Also about the terrific contributions from all over the world ... speaking of, I didn't even notice your location when I quoted you the first time What's up fellow Floridian
Doing well. I noticed that too. Where's your locale? I'm east coast near west palm... I could google but then we wouldn't have nothing to talk about...
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:40 AM   #46
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Add to that the folks that immediately jump to a conclusion that they're a genius and everyone else is stupid. If folks would drop the attitude this would be an instantly friendlier place. People are so quick to make a snappy snarky reply without trying to help.
Yeah, it's unfortunate, but as it's been said, too many times.

I did a quick search on a couple of usernames, and sure enough, they stalk dozens of sites posting, basically anti-Apple rhetoric. Marco has a great article about Apple bashers in the current issue of The Magazine, here's a little preview: http://the-magazine.org/4/anti-apple-anger

I'm not sure how some of these people arrive at that place either. I'd LOVE to see them going about their business in real life

Anyway...


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Originally Posted by Scrub175 View Post
Doing well. I noticed that too. Where's your locale? I'm east coast near west palm... I could google but then we wouldn't have nothing to talk about...

Vilano Beach, basically the St. Augustine area, Northeast coast, about 30 south of Jacksonville. We love it here, we're about 2 blocks from the beach, two blocks the other direction is the intracoastal. Great neighborhood, typical "beachy" kind of vibe. We work out of the homestead so it's being able to drop things midweek if the waves are breaking big

Last edited by stridemat; Dec 2, 2012 at 10:26 AM. Reason: cleanup
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:47 AM   #47
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I rarely see people who actually like Apple on here, hence why I don't come here often anymore. .
You've got to be kidding. A good percentage of this forum are religious Apple devotees who get very personal the minute you say anything even slightly critical.

Just look at the guys that completely lost it in the iphone 5 bendgate thread. Going on hate filled rants defending Apple instead of actually debating the issue. Why arn't the mods deleting those posts in that thread which routinely berate users at a personal level?

Again, not the majority, but a good percentage on this board nevertheless.

You won't find any shortage of people that "like Apple" here.

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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:30 AM   #48
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Most of the members on here are trolls you post anything that suggests you don't 100 percent support Apple and everyone insults you the mods allow that the same as the mods let a thread on will i am carry on with it's personal insults against against the designer continue pretty much as is without being moderated despite the racist and social-discriminatory comments that were glaringly obvious (although addmitedly the thread was eventually closed) whereas I got a temporary ban from a mod just because I said a nokia purview is a good camera and in that instance more pixels do help because the image of the nokiapureview is not a true 41megapixels but it picks the best pixel out of each image and then constructs a noiseless image of around 40 percent of the origional image which is 10.1 megapixels.

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Originally Posted by syd430 View Post
You've got to be kidding. A good percentage of this forum are religious Apple devotees who get very personal the minute you say even slightly critical.

Just look at the guys that completely lost it in the iphone 5 bendgate thread. Going on hate filled rants defending Apple instead of actually debating the issue. Why arn't the mods deleting those posts in that thread which routinely berate users at a personal level?

Again, not the majority, but a good percentage on this board nevertheless.

You won't find any shortage of people that "like Apple" here.
Maybe the mods hold the same views?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:36 AM   #49
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Maybe the mods hold the same views?
Its hard to fairly moderate a community when the moderators themselves are biased towards certain beliefs and products.

We see it everyday, not just in forums.

Its the humanity curse
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 06:37 AM   #50
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Its hard to fairly moderate a community when the moderators themselves are biased towards certain beliefs and products.

We see it everyday, not just in forums.

Its the humanity curse
You're wrong here, at least about moderation on MacRumors. It's not at all difficult for us to put our personal opinions aside when we evaluate whether or not a post has broken the rules. In everything except trolling we have a specific objective yardstick in the Forum Rules. Where trolling is concerned, you can refer to my post above.
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