Israel and Palestine in Crises Mode

[Peterkro]

Two people killed and several wounded in the third attack on the Gaza city media centre in the last few days,seven floors on fire.This is a straight out war crime.

Also reports that the head of hospital in Gaza city killed when his car was targeted,although only a report no confirmation yet.

[kavika411]

Originally Posted by Peterkro

Two people killed and several wounded in the third attack on the Gaza city media centre in the last few days,seven floors on fire.This is a straight out war crime.

That's a strong assertion, and it raises a reasonable - necessary, even - question for those who feel that Israel's actions indeed constitute a war crime.

Question: Is there any military action Palestinians can take against Israel that rises to the level of a war crime? And if the phrase "war crime" is too strong, then: Is there any military action Palestinians can take against Israel that is not justified?

[wikus]

Ah, its awesome being an atheist and watching lesser minds blow eschother up over a fictional character.

[Peterkro]

Originally Posted by kavika411

That's a strong assertion, and it raises a reasonable - necessary, even - question for those who feel that Israel's actions indeed constitute a war crime.

Question: Is there any military action Palestinians can take against Israel that rises to the level of a war crime? And if the phrase "war crime" is too strong, then: Is there any military action Palestinians can take against Israel that is not justified?

Of course it is possible, indeed the retaliatory firing of rockets at civilians could constitute a war crime,as could all the Israeli actions in Gaza.The point about journalists is they are especially mentioned as non combatants and will be considered civilians.

[Renzatic]

Originally Posted by wikus

Ah, its awesome being an atheist and watching lesser minds blow eschother up over a fictional character.

Cuz this is obviously all about religion. Just like our war in Iraq.

[0dev]

Originally Posted by wikus

Ah, its awesome being an atheist and watching lesser minds blow eschother up over a fictional character.

Have you not seen the episode of South Park where everyone was atheist and different atheist groups were still fighting over petty scientific details?

Religion is merely a scapegoat for human nature in these cases.

[NickZac]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

When one side is clearly being vastly more aggressive than the other why shouldn't I take sides?

Albeit there were bad things done by the British (e.g. Bloody Sunday), but it isn't as if the British RAF dropped bombs on catholic housing areas in Northern Ireland to kill IRA members now is it? And it also isn't as if the British insisted that the IRA give up their pledge for a united Ireland before talk started?

It is very sad how the Jews were treated in World War 2, it doesn't give the Israelis an excuse to behave as badly as they do now.

Oh come now...you know both your country and mine have made ethical violations in war, but that is another topic.

No, it does not give Israelis the okay to behave as they do now. I agree 100%. BUT, it also does not give the other side the okay to behave as they do now. This is a two-sided issue of violence on both sides. A person walks into a public area with a bomb strapped to their chest and kills civilians. A military makes an air strike on 'suspected military targets' and kills civilians. They have one thing in common and that is they were morally wrong. If we stay on this path, we will all be dead by 2100 from either destroying each other or destroying the world we need to survive.

[Macky-Mac]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

....Do you have any links which show that Hamas point blank refuses to talk directly to Israel under any circumstance or with absurd conditions?

Israel will not talk to Hamas until they change their constitution and they have made that publicly clear, that seems more than a little far fetched.

Since I suspect, but maybe it's being unreasonably optimistic, there's a possibility that someday Hamas might decide to violate its founding charter and hold discussions with Israel, I'm not going to bother with a link in which some Hamas official says it will never happen.

But since you're the one promoting the idea that Hamas is ready for peace, I think it's up to you to show that Hamas is indeed ready for what you claim.

In the meantime I'd guess the odds on Hamas agreeing to direct talks with israel is about the same as for israel agreeing to direct talks with Hamas

[mfuchs88]

Despite seeming like I side with Israel, I am outraged by their tactics and actions. It's disgusting, but the blame falls on both sides.

[wikus]

Originally Posted by Renzatic

Cuz this is obviously all about religion. Just like our war in Iraq.

you don't think this has anything to do with jews getting their own state? you may as well just throw out the book that has all the info on the sykes picot agreement and the balfour declaration.

this has everything to do with religion. go back 5,000 years and prevent judaism from existence and you'd essentially solve damn near all of the worlds major conflicts.

[mfuchs88]

Originally Posted by wikus

you don't think this has anything to do with jews getting their own state? you may as well just throw out the book that has all the info on the sykes picot agreement and the balfour declaration.

this has everything to do with religion. go back 5,000 years and prevent judaism from existence and you'd essentially solve damn near all of the worlds major conflicts.

Without Judaism there would be no Christianity. The world would be completely different. Everything we know would be different. I'm not a believer in religion, but we wouldn't be where we are without it. Maybe we'd be better, maybe worse, but completely different nonetheless.

[takao]

Originally Posted by Macky-Mac

Since I suspect, but maybe it's being unreasonably optimistic, there's a possibility that someday Hamas might decide to violate its founding charter and hold discussions with Israel, I'm not going to bother with a link in which some Hamas official says it will never happen.

But since you're the one promoting the idea that Hamas is ready for peace, I think it's up to you to show that Hamas is indeed ready for what you claim.

In the meantime I'd guess the odds on Hamas agreeing to direct talks with israel is about the same as for israel agreeing to direct talks with Hamas

like the israelian "bomb gaza back to the medieval age" interior minister is such a great proponent of peace talks at the moment

i still can't see how the israelian doctrine will lead them to a peacefull solution

just as Happybunny said they are doing nothing more than prolonging the bad status quo, waiting for a bang
Also i don't see them building any alliances either

[wikus]

Originally Posted by 0dev

Have you not seen the episode of South Park where everyone was atheist and different atheist groups were still fighting over petty scientific details?

Religion is merely a scapegoat for human nature in these cases.

No, the show sucks and I would never look to it for moral or ethical guidance in life.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by Macky-Mac

Since I suspect, but maybe it's being unreasonably optimistic, there's a possibility that someday Hamas might decide to violate its founding charter and hold discussions with Israel,

They already have gone against their founding charter by publicly stating that 1967 would be enough.

I'm sure Hamas would be happy to talk if other people were prepared to talk to them. Certainly the British and the Americans could call their bluff.

[Cox Orange]

Originally Posted by wikus

you don't think this has anything to do with jews getting their own state? you may as well just throw out the book that has all the info on the sykes picot agreement and the balfour declaration.

this has everything to do with religion. go back 5,000 years and prevent judaism from existence and you'd essentially solve damn near all of the worlds major conflicts.

The most religious people who want to live their customs will do this at home or in their synagogue/church/mosque or whatsoever, because they know they don't need other people get removed to pray to their god.

If radical muslims and christians would act according to Jesus/Mohammed they would live and let live (like Jesus saying "love your neighbour" and muslims saying "Mohammed said, you must respect Jews and Christians, because parts of their theory is part of ours as well, though their conclusions are wrong").

If it is true that the jewish believe says "an eye for an eye", which Christians and people of "christian societies" think, because we judge from the old testaments stories, then every radical (and even orthodox) Jew would have to fight against the whole world. Which they will not do.
Because if you look at people living in western countries, you see they are so much influenced by the morals and values of the age of enlightenment, and more by the convenience of modern life, that they do more care for having a good live, were they live and being able to practise their religion at home. Because they are quiet happy with the status quo.

I also distinguish Israelis/Hamas from Jews/Muslims, I do not think that the majority of Rabbis and Imahms would concentrate on thinking about making war, though you will definately find a small percentage who will think about war. But you will have these single persons in "christian" societies too and if atheist they will maybe argument, that people from the other country are smelling bad and should therefore be killed.

Originally Posted by mfuchs88

Without Judaism there would be no Christianity. The world would be completely different. Everything we know would be different. I'm not a believer in religion, but we wouldn't be where we are without it. Maybe we'd be better, maybe worse, but completely different nonetheless.

That's only partly right. We (europe) is influenced philosophically by greek/roman/persian(Iran)/Syrian and science-wise by arab emperors invading spain and bringing their scientific knowledge with them and bringing knowledge to the rest of europe along with trading with european states of the Middle Ages. The arab empires had installed hugh scientific libraries (that were highly organized). They were the reason Europa was able to know about greek philosophy. Arab (islamic) emperors had colelcted the whole greek works. European philosophers did only have "loose pages" of greek philosophy and used them when it cam in handy in their own "fantasy" science. European (christian) scientists/philosophers do more serve the cliche that philosophy is just talking about everything and making things up, before the Middle Ages (and still then). Arabs then translated the (somewhat more complete) greek texts for european scientists and also gave them copies of arab scientific literature. Jews (and Christians) living in the Arab world were also used to translate it, because they were highly educated and would speak both arab languages and latin. The european christian bishops and so on and christian people who were in power employed Jews in Europe to have their own translators at hand.
None of the groups did have any problems with their religion (though they would fight against each other from time to time like in the crusades) they seemed to more being interested in getting knowledge from the muslim world and giving them goods for it.
I do not know which scientific texts (e.g. about anatomy or astrology or mathematics) are of jewish region, but they at least helped to translate arab and greek texts. Being a nomadic people, Jews maybe were not able to establish a big science in the early days to be fair (Jews as in Jews as a people and not in Israelites, French, Germans, Americans, Egypt persons of Jewish faith).
Emperors of the time (on both sides) had a more pragmatic sight on religion. If you need reasons to get land you might tell your christian farmers, that they should pick up their forks and go to jerusalem and fight the Arabs, if you want the knowledge you will invite them and sooperate. If you want to invade spain you will tell your Arab farmers that christians are stupid, if you want goods, you might just cooperate.

btw. you don't need Judaism to derive christianity, you could also think of an atheist 2000 years ago reading greek books and come to the solution that everything is ok, when you just let live and let live and do not use force to convince people (which goes along the "love your neighbour and show your other cheek" and radical Christianity will go on, "but try to convince them with words, that they will die, if they do not believe in the christian god. If they do not believe me, I will go home and pray for them, but it was their decision, if they do not live eternally").

[mfuchs88]

Originally Posted by Cox Orange

The most religious people who want to live their customs will do this at home or in their synagogue/church/mosque or whatsoever, because they know they don't need other people get removed to pray to their god.

If radical muslims and christs would act according to Jesus/Mohammed they would live and let live (like Jesus saying "love your neighbour" and muslims saying "Mohammed said, you must respect Jews and Christians, because parts of their theory is part of ours as well, though their conclusions are wrong").

If it is true that the jewish believe says "an eye for an eye", which Christians and people of "christian societies" think, because we judge from the old testaments stories, then every radical (and even orthodox) Jew would have to fight against the whole world. Which they will not do.
Because if you look at people living in western countries, you see they are so much influenced by the morals and values of the age of enlightenment, that they do more care for having a good live, were they live and being able to practise their religion at home. Because they are quiet happy with the status quo.


That's only partly right. We (europe) is influenced philosophically by greek/roman/persian(Iran)/Syrian and science-wise by arab emperors invading spain and bringing their scientific knowledge with them and bringing knowledge to the rest of europe along with trading with european states of the Middle Ages. The arab empires had installed hugh scientific libraries (that were highly organized). They were the reason Europa was able to know about greek philosophy. Arab (islamic) emperors had colelcted the whole greek works. European philosophers did only have "loose pages" of greek philosophy and used them when it cam in handy in their own "fantasy" science. European (christian) scientists/philosophers do more serve the cliche that philosophy is just talking about everything and making things up, before the Middle Ages (and still then). Arabs then translated the (somewhat more complete) greek texts for european scientists and also gave them copies of arab scientific literature. Jews (and Christians) living in the Arab world were also used to translate it, because they were highly educated and would speak both arab languages and latin. The european christian bishops and so on and christian people who were in power employed Jews in Europe to have their own translators at hand.
None of the groups did have any problems with their religion (though they would fight against each other from time to time like in the crusades) they seemed to more being interested in getting knowledge from the muslim world and giving them goods for it.
I do not know which scientific texts (e.g. about anatomy or astrology or mathematics) are of jewish region, but they at least helped to translate arab and greek texts.
Emperors of the time (on both sides) had a more pragmatic sight on religion. If you need reasons to get land you might tell your christian farmers, that they should pick up their forks and go to jerusalem and fight the Arabs, if you want the knowledge you will invite them and sooperate. If you want to invade spain you will tell your Arab farmers that christians are stupid, if you want goods, you might just cooperate.

btw. you don't need Judaism to derive christianity, you could also think of an atheist 2000 years ago reading greek books and come to the solution that everything is ok, when you just let live and let live and do not use force to convince people (which goes along the "love your neighbour and show your other cheek" and radical Christianity will go on, "but try to convince them with words, that they will die, if they do not believe in the christian god. If they do not believe me, I will go home and pray for them, but it was their decision, if they do not live eternally").

Everything everywhere was and is influenced by religion. There's no question about it.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by mfuchs88

It's also not as if the IRA launched hundreds of missiles each year for over 20 years. You can't compare these two situations, they're completely different

The IRA blew up commercial buildings and assassinated government ministers instead.

Sure the IRA didn't use suicide bombings, and they tried harder to avoid civilian casualties, but they were hardly angels.

Originally Posted by mfuchs88

and the militant parties had completely different goals.

Not really, both wanted land and jobs.

Originally Posted by NickZac

Oh come now...you know both your country and mine have made ethical violations in war,

Of course.

Originally Posted by NickZac

A person walks into a public area with a bomb strapped to their chest and kills civilians.

If they were still doing this then you'd have a point - I can't remember the last suicide bombing in Israel.

[Cox Orange]

Originally Posted by mfuchs88

Everything everywhere was and is influenced by religion. There's no question about it.

Well, yes somehow. It exists along with it and sometimes people use religion as excuse for their actions (wars), but it is not needed to start a war and also not needed to do science and learn something. This I wanted to say. I did not say, that it didn't in some way influence history (or the way it was used, both being misused and used as such).
So we actually making the same point. It did/does influence how it is today, but I was taking it further and also showing, that some things we praise (like knowledge) aren't necessarily interweaved. As you say "it could be better, it could be not better".

[IBradMac]

Everyone is talking about this. The word I keep hearing is "escalating in 48 hours". If they engage in full out war, what does this mean for us (USA)? (Sorry for ignorance on the subject)

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by IBradMac

Everyone is talking about this. The word I keep hearing is "escalating in 48 hours". If they engage in full out war, what does this mean for us (USA)? (Sorry for ignorance on the subject)

• It makes Israel look worse to the international community, and Israel is a US ally.
• It damages US relations with muslim countries if Obama doesn't come down hard on Israel.
• It makes it more likely that the Jews will have to leave - and the US is somewhere they will go.

[NickZac]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

If they were still doing this then you'd have a point - I can't remember the last suicide bombing in Israel.

They are shooting rockets with the intention to kill civilians. I fail to see a difference? I have an issue painting someone as overly repressed when they are shooting hundreds of rockets off and intentionally shooting them off right next to places like schools. Again, that is not to back Israel. Both sides are wrong and as I previously said, war means civilians die...it's one of the big reasons war is so awful and should be avoided if at all possible, and IMO neither nations are making an effort to avoid war.

----------

Originally Posted by IBradMac

Everyone is talking about this. The word I keep hearing is "escalating in 48 hours". If they engage in full out war, what does this mean for us (USA)? (Sorry for ignorance on the subject)

Hopefully a policy of neutrality and attempts at mediation. Any US involvement will make existing relations worse.

[meechy]

The zionists are sick blood thirsty warmongers that need to be stopped.

Look at this video taken recently, disgraceful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPWi6x8HshM

[NickZac]

Obama's take
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Qt3J1sjfQ&NR=1

[NT1440]

Everything Jerusalem is doing right now is strictly against the 4th article in Geneva convention.

Oh wait

It doesn't apply because Palestine is not a recognized state, I wonder who has been blocking that for over 60 years.

This is shameful for Jerusalem, and just plain embarrassing to the USA standing by it and actively helping block statehood.

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Both Israel and Palestine been dead wrong for at least half a century. Israel has been abusing it's power and breaking the rules, while Palestine has been committing acts of terror regardless of any legit or not reason.