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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:20 PM   #76
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We all understand what we're saying because we actually own and use these devices. We don't watch videos and base that as our user experience.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:23 PM   #77
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We all understand what we're saying because we actually own and use these devices. We don't watch videos and base that as our user experience.
See, how was this comment in any way related to the discussion I was having with the other two guys? Get over it, man, or say something relevant.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:24 PM   #78
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See, how was this comment in any way related to the discussion I was having with the other two guys? Get over it, man, or say something relevant.
It's related because you have no clue what you're talking about.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:26 PM   #79
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Z, if multiple people are calling you out on the inconsistencies of your posts, maybe you ought to reevaluate your arguments. This isn't the first time. Your conversation regarding "innovation" over at the other thread is another example, and that's from today!

Maybe you genuinely don't see it.

I'll leave it at that. I've walked down this path before, and apparently, calling out inconsistent posters (with their own words, no less) leads to a ban.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:28 PM   #80
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Z, if multiple people are calling you out on the inconsistencies of your posts, maybe you ought to reevaluate your arguments. This isn't the first time. Your conversation regarding "innovation" over at the other thread is another example from just today.

I'll leave it at that. I've walked down this path before, and apparently, calling out inconsistent posters with their own words, no less, leads to a ban.
I'm not being inconsistent. That dude seemed to deliberately phrase his question in an indecipherable way. And I'm learning to stop debating over meaningless words like "innovation." My new theory for what's innovative is: I know it when I see it. That's about as good of a definition as anybody is gonna get.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:30 PM   #81
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I'm not being inconsistent. That dude seemed to deliberately phrase his question in an indecipherable way. And I'm learning to stop debating over meaningless words like "innovation." My new theory for what's innovative is: I know it when I see it. That's about as good of a definition as anybody is gonna get.
Good lord, that's the problem, don't you understand? You only "see it" when Apple does it.

Thank you!
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:32 PM   #82
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Good lord, that's the problem, don't you understand? You only "see it" when Apple does it.

Thank you!
Like when apple includes NFC one day. THAT'S innovation.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:32 PM   #83
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Good lord, that's the problem, don't you understand? You only "see it" when Apple does it.

Thank you!
That's not even remotely true. I've told you many times iOS 6 isn't innovative, Google Now is. Google makes innovation at a faster rate right now than Apple. Hardware wise I believe Apple is more capable than other OEMs, and is innovative.

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Like when apple includes NFC one day. THAT'S innovation.
Nope. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:34 PM   #84
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2013 is going to be an amazing year for the Android guys. We all know very will that Apple won't be bringing anything with a WOW factor anytime soon.
Very true. 2013 promises to be a milestone year, both for Android, and Samsung.

They've got so much momentum right now, it will propel them forward into the new year with a velocity we haven't seen from Apple for quite some time.

Seemingly content with half measures like the mild, barely noticeable stretching of the iPhone display, to the nearly identical experience iPhone 5 offers as compared to it's 4S predecessor.

Actually removing Google Maps caused a degradation in ones experience unlike any previous iPhone. How strange that Apple would take such a risk. Yet knowing the unusually high level of tolerance within their user base, Apple knows exactly how much it can get away with.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:37 PM   #85
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Yeah, Android's animation could be better than crappy iOS animations? I don't even think you guys understand what you're saying at this point, lol.

----------



Here we go. TouchWiz copied iOS's messaging style (if we want to talk messaging). The colors were different, the effects were different, but the UI design was undeniably similar. Just because it isn't blue or glossy doesn't mean it isn't the same design.

They copied the UI of the alarm app. They copied the UI of the home screen. And much more. Don't confuse visual design with design. The UI was the same, and that's what's important.
You're not making any sense. You can't have it both ways. Either Apple was right in accusing Samsung of copying and you were wrong in calling TouchWiz fisher-price.

OR

Apple was wrong and you are right.

What you want is for both you and Apple to be right, which just isn't possible.

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Now stop trying to make me look hypocritical by tossing these obscure questions at me.
I barely have to try. You're doing all the work.

----------

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That's not even remotely true. I've told you many times iOS 6 isn't innovative, Google Now is. Google makes innovation at a faster rate right now than Apple. Hardware wise I believe Apple is more capable than other OEMs, and is innovative.
Let's be honest. Your posts are all over the place. It's like you can't make up your mind and use arguments you've heard from other people as your own.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:38 PM   #86
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You're not making any sense. You can't have it both ways. Either Apple was right in accusing Samsung of copying and you were wrong in calling TouchWiz fisher-price.

OR

Apple was wrong and you are right.

What you want is for both you and Apple to be right, which just isn't possible.



I barely have to try. You're doing all the work.
You don't understand what you're talking about. It's not a dichotomy. Samsung copies the UI design of messaging, but implemented it with a Fisher Price looking theme (gaudy, cheap colors). Their VISUAL DESIGN looked like Fisher Price, you can't seem to separate UI design and visual design.

Lemme give you a different example. If I have a jail broken iPhone and switch between the stock look and a glass, aero look, do you agree that though the UI is the same, the visual design is different? I've still got my rows of icons, with everything spaced the same and acting the same, but it looks different.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:44 PM   #87
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That's not even remotely true. I've told you many times iOS 6 isn't innovative, Google Now is. Google makes innovation at a faster rate right now than Apple. Hardware wise I believe Apple is more capable then other OEMs, and is innovative.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...1491565&page=4

In the above thread, you said Apple making the iPhone 5 thinner and lighter is innovation.

Yet when asked whether Samsung or any of the numerous OEMs out there were innovating when they made devices lighter/thinner for two years during the 4 and 4S era, you said, no; those times don't count because they didn't have good engineering.

You also said it's innovation that Apple is designing their own "killer chips". What's Samsung been doing with their chips, then? Show me a post where you claim Samsung is innovating every time they put out a new killer chip.

You then said something about innovation needing to have practicality and function, to which it was pointed out to you that there is a myriad of functionality with plastic back devices (NFC, SD expansion, battery expansion/replacement, customized backplates), but not once have I ever witness you consider plastic an innovation. In fact, it's something you constantly berate.

You lower the bar to define Apple's innovation while raising it to deny it to others.

If you can't see what you're doing, if you really can't see that you're moving the goal posts; not playing fair; being inconsistent, then this truly is a losing argument.

Not to mention, you just admitted above that you judge innovation only through your eyes. Along with your recent admission that you haven't owned an Android device (deriving your judgments primarily from videos), you've lost a ton of credibility, Z.

Final post, I promise. Adios.

Last edited by onthecouchagain; Nov 19, 2012 at 11:50 PM.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:46 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by onthecouchagain View Post
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...1491565&page=4

In this thread, you said Apple making the iPhone 5 thinner and lighter is an innovation.

Yet when I asked you whether Samsung or any of the numerous OEMs out there were innovating when they made devices lighter/thinner for two years during the 4 and 4S era, you said, no, because they didn't have good engineering.

You also said it's innovation that Apple is designing their own "killer chips". What's Samsung been doing with their chips, then? Show me a post where you claim Samsung is innovating every time they put out a new killer chip.

You then say something about innovation needing to have practicality and function, to which I pointed out that myriad of functionality of plastic back devices (NFC, SD expansion, battery expansion/replacement, customized backplates), which is something you constantly berate.

You lower the bar to define Apple's innovation while raising it to deny it to others.

If you can't see what you're doing, if you really can't see that you're moving the goal posts; not playing fair; being inconsistent, then this truly is a losing argument.

Not to mention, you just admitted above that you judge innovation only through your eyes. Along with your recent admission that you haven't owned an Android device (deriving your judgments primarily from videos), you've lost a ton of credibility, Z.

Final post, I promise. Adios.
Because innovation is only in the eyes of the beholder, isn't it? I'll disagree with your innovation, you'll disagree with mine, and I'll disagree with your disagreement. That's why I said I don't like to use the term innovation, lol. And same here, though, I'm done for the night.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:47 PM   #89
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You don't understand what you're talking about. It's not a dichotomy. Samsung copies the UI design of messaging, but implemented it with a Fisher Price looking theme (gaudy, cheap colors). Their VISUAL DESIGN looked like Fisher Price, you can't seem to separate UI design and visual design.

Lemme give you a different example. If I have a jail broken iPhone and switch between the stock look and a glass, aero look, do you agree that though the UI is the same, the visual design is different? I've still got my rows of icons, with everything spaced the same and acting the same, but it looks different.
I'm willing to agree with that. They have a different visual design. They both look good in their own way.

But you're saying that even though they have a different visual design, it is okay for Apple to claim that Samsung blatantly copied them? That was my main question.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:48 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by zbarvian View Post
Nope. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though.
Lets use your own words then.

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Originally Posted by zbarvian View Post
I think everyone in here would be more level-headed if they owned both Android phones and iPhones. That way they could see the merits of each, and not be forced to defend their purchase by belittling the others' arguments, which happens all too frequently.
You said yourself you've never owned an android device yet you criticize the OS. You say the UI is cheap and fisher price looking but if you had spent just 10 minutes with the phone, you'd would've known you could customise the UI to fit your needs and style. This isn't like apple where what you see is what you get and you're stuck with it.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:52 PM   #91
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I'm willing to agree with that. They have a different visual design.

But you're saying that even though they have a different visual design, it is okay for Apple to claim that Samsung blatantly copied them? That was my main question.
Absolutely. If Apple released iOS 7 and it looked like this, they'd have a huge lawsuit on their hands. Design is so much more than the visual component, and UI/UX is arguably what's more important. That's what truly distinguishes different software, not whether something is a different color, has a different gradient, different styling, etc. Now do you see what I mean?
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:54 PM   #92
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Because innovation is only in the eyes of the beholder, isn't it? I'll disagree with your innovation, you'll disagree with mine, and I'll disagree with your disagreement. That's why I said I don't like to use the term innovation, lol. And same here, though, I'm done for the night.
I did not disagree with your innovation. I only asked you to be consistent, to apply your definition of innovation to others the same way you apply it to Apple.

Big difference.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 11:55 PM   #93
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I did not disagree with your innovation. I only asked you to be consistent, to apply your definition of innovation to others the same way you apply it to Apple.

Big difference.
Fair enough. Next time someone else makes their phone crazy thin given the internals and relative thickness of other similarly-sized devices, I'll laud them too.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:03 AM   #94
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Yeah, Android's animation could be better than crappy iOS animations? I don't even think you guys understand what you're saying at this point, lol.

----------



Here we go. TouchWiz copied iOS's messaging style (if we want to talk messaging). The colors were different, the effects were different, but the UI design was undeniably similar. Just because it isn't blue or glossy doesn't mean it isn't the same design.

They copied the UI of the alarm app. They copied the UI of the home screen. And much more. Don't confuse visual design with design. The UI was the same, and that's what's important.

Now stop trying to make me look hypocritical by tossing these obscure questions at me.
Yeah, Apple would never try to be upfront and admit they copied something. They would never try to pass off a design as their own. Not even a simple little icon....oh wait.

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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:04 AM   #95
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Yeah, Apple would never try to be upfront and admit they copied something. They would never try to pass off a design as their own. Not even a simple little icon....oh wait.

Image
Yup, they copied it and paid. They deserved the lawsuit, as did Samsung.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:05 AM   #96
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Absolutely. If Apple released iOS 7 and it looked like this, they'd have a huge lawsuit on their hands. Design is so much more than the visual component, and UI/UX is arguably what's more important. That's what truly distinguishes different software, not whether something is a different color, has a different gradient, different styling, etc. Now do you see what I mean?
If that's what Samsung did, then I would. I can see your POV. You're saying that Samsung simply copied all of iOS and changed up the colors. But that's not what they did.

Read through this document:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/08/a...ument-mimicry/

Samsung's UI is very different for many of the apps. Yes, they looked at iOS for inspiration but the UI's are not the same, and neither is the visual design as you said.

I'll try to clarify some of what I was trying to get at before. You don't think that Apple has tried to mislead consumers into thinking that Samsung it some kind thief? Even in the picture I posted on the last page, Apple has deliberately modified the image to make them look similar. Firstly, the changed the wallpaper. Secondly, they show the app drawer. Thirdly, in many cases they even reduced the size of the Galaxy S to make it look exactly like the iPhone.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:08 AM   #97
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If that's what Samsung did, then I would. I can see your POV. You're saying that Samsung simply copied all of iOS and changed up the colors. But that's not what they did.

Read through this document:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/08/a...ument-mimicry/

Samsung's UI is very different for many of the apps. Yes, they looked at iOS for inspiration but the UI's are not the same, and neither is the visual design as you said.

I'll try to clarify some of what I was trying to get at before. You don't think that Apple has tried to mislead consumers into thinking that Samsung it some kind thief? Even in the picture I posted on the last page, Apple has deliberately modified the image to make them look similar. Firstly, the changed the wallpaper. Secondly, they show the app drawer. Thirdly, in many cases they even reduced the size of the Galaxy S to make it look exactly like the iPhone.
I would like to add that Apple has no idea what widgets are.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:12 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by onthecouchagain View Post
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...1491565&page=4

In the above thread, you said Apple making the iPhone 5 thinner and lighter is innovation.

Yet when asked whether Samsung or any of the numerous OEMs out there were innovating when they made devices lighter/thinner for two years during the 4 and 4S era, you said, no; those times don't count because they didn't have good engineering.

You also said it's innovation that Apple is designing their own "killer chips". What's Samsung been doing with their chips, then? Show me a post where you claim Samsung is innovating every time they put out a new killer chip.

You then said something about innovation needing to have practicality and function, to which it was pointed out to you that there is a myriad of functionality with plastic back devices (NFC, SD expansion, battery expansion/replacement, customized backplates), but not once have I ever witness you consider plastic an innovation. In fact, it's something you constantly berate.

You lower the bar to define Apple's innovation while raising it to deny it to others.

If you can't see what you're doing, if you really can't see that you're moving the goal posts; not playing fair; being inconsistent, then this truly is a losing argument.

Not to mention, you just admitted above that you judge innovation only through your eyes. Along with your recent admission that you haven't owned an Android device (deriving your judgments primarily from videos), you've lost a ton of credibility, Z.

Final post, I promise. Adios.
Dont worry...when the iP6 gets NFC with a plastic back or the glass back again, that will be innovation to Z
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:19 AM   #99
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If that's what Samsung did, then I would. I can see your POV. You're saying that Samsung simply copied all of iOS and changed up the colors. But that's not what they did.

Read through this document:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/08/a...ument-mimicry/

Samsung's UI is very different for many of the apps. Yes, they looked at iOS for inspiration but the UI's are not the same, and neither is the visual design as you said.

I'll try to clarify some of what I was trying to get at before. You don't think that Apple has tried to mislead consumers into thinking that Samsung it some kind thief? Even in the picture I posted on the last page, Apple has deliberately modified the image to make them look similar. Firstly, the changed the wallpaper. Secondly, they show the app drawer. Thirdly, in many cases they even reduced the size of the Galaxy S to make it look exactly like the iPhone.
Samsung's a thief, Apple's a thief, Google's a thief, everyone is. I think Samsung went too far in mimicking the iPhone, as did the jury. That being said, I understand the frustration of Apple's lawsuits for "stolen products" when they blatantly copy Android tech like Notification Center. Inspiration is dangerous. Everything is inspired from something else, but too much inspiration is harmful. Samsung got that with that lawsuit, Apple recently got that with the Swiss clock license, and I'm sure more will happen in the future.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 12:29 AM   #100
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Samsung's a thief, Apple's a thief, Google's a thief, everyone is. I think Samsung went too far in mimicking the iPhone, as did the jury. That being said, I understand the frustration of Apple's lawsuits for "stolen products" when they blatantly copy Android tech like Notification Center. Inspiration is dangerous. Everything is inspired from something else, but too much inspiration is harmful. Samsung got that with that lawsuit, Apple recently got that with the Swiss clock license, and I'm sure more will happen in the future.
I'm glad you agree. I just find it strange that there are people on this forum that act like Apple never copies anything and that without Apple, Samsung would go out of business. Or that Google is evil for collecting your data, while naively believing Apple doesn't do the same. I'll leave it at that.

I won't go into the fisher price thing too much because it's not stock Android. Have you ever tried stock Android? I personally feel that, after ICS, Android actually has a better visual design than iOS. It feels more futuristic. Anyody else feel this way?
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