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Old Nov 26, 2012, 11:26 AM   #201
AppleFan1984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kas23 View Post
If I was Samsung, I would immediately stop selling components to Apple.
http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/23/app...samsung-walks/
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 11:31 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Is that the most recent data? Thee article I linked to says the iPhone is almost 2/3rd of Apple's profit. But that was back in August...
I said revenue, so that's not at odd with your article (your article even cites the 51% of total revenues). Revenues are gross, Profits are net.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 11:33 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Bezetos View Post
Stop with the "Apple fighting for innovation" nonsense already. That's absurd.

Apple has NOT invented the core technologies behind these devices. You seem to know nothing about which patents are involved in the fight between these two companies.
I would eventually like to be a UI guy, and while I think Apple should attempt a settlement out of court, I will not stand for UI's being stolen like samsung has done. The overall look and feel of the devices are extremely similar - and samsung wouldn't be making the NoteII or the S3 if they hadn't been successful with the near-direct copies that are the Ace, S1, S2 and Mini (not s3 mini...).
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 11:33 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
I said revenue, so that's not at odd with your article (your article even cites the 51% of total revenues). Revenues are gross, Profits are net.
Indeed. Missed that in your post. Sorry about that.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 11:35 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by clibinarius View Post
Name one.
Putting multitouch in a phone?
The homescreen grid and icon design?
Need I bring this picture back?
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 11:36 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Putting multitouch in a phone?
The homescreen grid and icon design?
Need I bring this picture back?
Image
Are you suggesting that Apple invented or was the first to use a grid and icon design in a phone?

Do you have any idea how hilarious that is?
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 11:39 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Are you suggesting that Apple invented or was the first to use a grid and icon design in a phone?

Do you have any idea how hilarious that is?
Not as hilarious as the fact that he doesn't know about the SE P800 or the Nokia 7650 :

Thumb resize.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 12:24 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Putting multitouch in a phone?
The homescreen grid and icon design?
Need I bring this picture back?
Image
Oh, you mean that technology that was going into computers more and more anyway as part of a trend, and Apple was the first to market it though internal documents of Samsung indicate that they were indeed working on such a device?

Interesting. Heck, for reference, I'll include this: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...as-the-iphone/

And that grid. I haven't seen it in MS windows before? You do realize that's not the default screen for Android and Samsung, right? No? Doesn't matter much.

So Apple took an existing technology and brought it to market a little bit faster. And put in a grid that looked a lot like Windows 3.1. Got it.

I thought the real innovations were things such as applying Gorilla Glass to electronics, which was a Steve Jobs idea. Too bad you missed the real innovation to go after rectangles, grids, and existing prototypical technology.

Anyone else want to try to name a real Apple innovation? I can. Can you?
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 12:29 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by clibinarius View Post
Oh, you mean that technology that was going into computers more and more anyway as part of a trend, and Apple was the first to market it though internal documents of Samsung indicate that they were indeed working on such a device?

Interesting. Heck, for reference, I'll include this: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...as-the-iphone/

And that grid. I haven't seen it in MS windows before? You do realize that's not the default screen for Android and Samsung, right? No? Doesn't matter much.

So Apple took an existing technology and brought it to market a little bit faster. And put in a grid that looked a lot like Windows 3.1. Got it.

I thought the real innovations were things such as applying Gorilla Glass to electronics, which was a Steve Jobs idea. Too bad you missed the real innovation to go after rectangles, grids, and existing prototypical technology.

Anyone else want to try to name a real Apple innovation? I can. Can you?
My Treo had a grid of icons. So did my Palm Pilot. It wasn't just a computer OS that had this easily recognized "idea"

Blinders are blinders though, right?
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 12:36 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
As an aspiring dev, I'd be pissed if someone could just rip me off and it wasn't Okay to sue them.
Software is protected by copyright. Someone rips off your program, you can sue the for copyright infringement.

If someone comes up with a better/different way to implement your program without using any of your copyrighted code they should be free to do so without fear of being sued.
This is called progress.

With software patents, the code itself becomes irrelevant. The process is protected and progress becomes much more difficult to achieve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexN350z View Post
Just to be fair. What "core technologies" did Google and Samsung invent? Search Engine? Android?
Considering Samsung invented many core technologies including standard essential patents regarding 3G and LTE radios, memory, CPU manufacturing, display tech, etc.
Those are true core tech. Without it, you have no iPhone.
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Last edited by rjohnstone; Nov 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 12:57 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by faroZ06 View Post


----------



The same could be said about iOS 5, 4, and 3. The biggest one was iOS 4, and that basically just legitimatized features from Cydia packages that create folders and custom backgrounds.
I agree.

And I would prefer Apple to copy a few more cydia tweaks instead of replacing a usable maps app with a broken one and calling it a feature.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 01:34 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Are you suggesting that Apple invented or was the first to use a grid and icon design in a phone?

Do you have any idea how hilarious that is?
Go ahead, spend millions designing SOMETHING, whatever it is, I'll just knock it off, that's Okay right?

Look and feel, baby, look and feel.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Not as hilarious as the fact that he doesn't know about the SE P800 or the Nokia 7650 :

Thumb resize.
those are round and irregular shaped icons, and the iPhone looks nothing like those devices. Go back to my image, from a distance you can't tell the two apart.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5aga View Post
I agree.

And I would prefer Apple to copy a few more cydia tweaks instead of replacing a usable maps app with a broken one and calling it a feature.
I still fail to see how, except from the 0day glitches, the app is broken. I've used it across the country and I haven't gotten lost once. Gmaps got me lost in the past because it wasn't a GPS app, it was a map app and didn't do turn by turn.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjohnstone View Post
Software is protected by copyright. Someone rips off your program, you can sue the for copyright infringement.
If someone comes up with a better/different way to implement your program without using any of your copyrighted code they should be free to do so without fear of being sued.
This is called progress.
With software patents, the code itself becomes irrelevant. The process is protected and progress becomes much more difficult to achieve.
Considering Samsung invented many core technologies including standard essential patents regarding 3G and LTE radios, memory, CPU manufacturing, display tech, etc.
Those are true core tech. Without it, you have no iPhone.
Look and feel are not protected by copyright, that's where patents come in, please look things up before you talk about them.
Code? Code?? I never mentioned code. I said UI.
A better way? Yes. the exact same way? Hell no.
Samsung hasn't invented sh**.
Let's go 1 by 1 here.

3G/LTE radios - manufacturing yes, design? hell no they just manufacture other people's (QComm and others) designs
Memory - DDR, DDR2, DDR3 were all JEDEC - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JEDEC
not samsung. They manufacture them.
Display tech - nope. nothing to do with the iPhone, OLED yes - but even Samsung is abandoning those.

Okay - so they have a lot of Fabrication patents, so they can make more iphone chips than anyone else. To correct your statement, without Samsung, we would have fewer iPhones. Not "no" iPhone
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 01:41 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Go ahead, spend millions designing SOMETHING, whatever it is, I'll just knock it off, that's Okay right?

Look and feel, baby, look and feel.

----------



those are round and irregular shaped icons, and the iPhone looks nothing like those devices. Go back to my image, from a distance you can't tell the two apart.[COLOR="#808080"]

----------
How embarrassing... for you.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 01:42 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Look and feel are not protected by copyright, that's where patents come in
Look and feel is a BS metric to judge anything by. It's such a vaguely defined thing, you could practically put anything underneath it and call it your own because it "looks and feels" like sorta like something you'd do.

If it were more than at least a half assed argument, you'd think maybe Apple would've won a case after attempting to use it in court time and time again.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 01:56 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
How embarrassing... for you.
You have to understand when arguing the "iPhone look-a-like" argument, they'll say any phone that looks vaguely like an iPhone made after 2007 is an obvious rip off, whereas any phone that vaguely looks like the iPhone before 2007 has to look exactly the same, otherwise they'll say they have nothing in common, and Apple couldn't have copied it.

Anything that came before has to have rounded corners, be the same color, the same thickness, the same silver edging. It has to be the same down to the tiniest detail to be considered an iPhone before the iPhone. On the other hand, anything after 2007 only has to be a candybar phone with a large screen to be considered a ripoff.

It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 02:00 PM   #216
samcraig
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Ohhhhh I understand alright

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
You have to understand when arguing the "iPhone look-a-like" argument, they'll say any phone that looks vaguely like an iPhone made after 2007 is an obvious rip off, whereas any phone that vaguely looks like the iPhone before 2007 has to look exactly the same, otherwise they'll say they have nothing in common, and Apple couldn't have copied it.

Anything that came before has to have rounded corners, be the same color, the same thickness, the same silver edging. It has to be the same down to the tiniest detail to be considered an iPhone before the iPhone. On the other hand, anything after 2007 only has to be a candybar phone with a large screen to be considered a ripoff.

It's a heads I win, tails you lose situation.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 02:07 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by AppleFan1984 View Post
This looks like a shot across the bow. The processors will likely go next and that will be very damaging. Apple has been "grooming" TSMC for 2 years now and they still don't appear to be ready to mass-produce processors yet.

I also don't know if I should be worried that Apple is changing to these no-name companies for their components. These may be household names in China for all I know, but will Amperex Technology Limited and Tianjin Lishen Battery make reliable products? With Samsung, at least we knew we were getting quality components.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 02:08 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by samcraig View Post
Ohhhhh I understand alright
I figured as much. Still, it's good to spell it out to show we're on to them. :P
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 02:24 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Look and feel are not protected by copyright, that's where patents come in, please look things up before you talk about them.
Code? Code?? I never mentioned code. I said UI.
Patents don't protect look and feel, they protect some aspects of design, but what you're referring to is Trade Dress and Trademarks. Things Apple did assert against Samsung, since their lawyers are much better about knowing IP than some forum goers around here.

And btw, your pics ? I have no problem telling them apart, no matter how far you hold them.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 02:31 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
I would eventually like to be a UI guy, and while I think Apple should attempt a settlement out of court, I will not stand for UI's being stolen like samsung has done.
If you ever become a UI guy, I guarantee you that you'll take as much inspiration from others, as ideas that you come up with yourself. In fact, to be successful, your users will expect a lot of familiarity.

For example, Apple used a phone icon with green, because the combination was common symbology used on every cell phone made since day one. They did it so users would instantly recognize how to make a call.

In fact, Apple copied 90% of the core design of every smartphone made up until then: a rectangular slab with physical volume, power and home buttons, with apps for phone, maps, contacts, notes, music, etc. Then they added in some UI choices that commonly arise on any all-touch device. They didn't invent these things, but they picked out and improved on what was best. Likewise, others have done the same.

Notice, however, that no one followed some of Apple's poorer initial design decisions, like leaving out a Back button that every other smartphone OS has, or not having downloadable apps or multitasking at first, or scattering app-specific settings between the app's local menu and the global settings menu, and so forth.

Quote:
The overall look and feel of the devices are extremely similar - and samsung wouldn't be making the NoteII or the S3 if they hadn't been successful with the near-direct copies that are the Ace, S1, S2 and Mini (not s3 mini...).
Do you have a specific UI similarity in mind, or is it all about a vague overall look and feel including the case design. I agree that the overall impression was similar, but without overt copying.

Last edited by kdarling; Nov 26, 2012 at 02:59 PM.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 03:11 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Go ahead, spend millions designing SOMETHING, whatever it is, I'll just knock it off, that's Okay right?

Look and feel, baby, look and feel.
You're repeating the same nonsense again. If someone wants the look and feel of the iphone, they buy the iphone. Apple has subsidized options in many countries down to $0. Unsubsidized purchases where some options may be hundreds cheaper most likely wouldn't have turned into iphone sales anyway. You need to at least say something with substance rather than an incredibly dated use of slang.




Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post

Look and feel are not protected by copyright, that's where patents come in, please look things up before you talk about them.
Code? Code?? I never mentioned code. I said UI.
A better way? Yes. the exact same way? Hell no.
Samsung hasn't invented sh**.
Let's go 1 by 1 here.
You should probably deal with some of those anger issues. In many cases registered designs just protect ornamental design elements. They don't specifically protect look and feel. You're confused because this is likely the only situation you've ever reviewed on the topic (not really my forte either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
3G/LTE radios - manufacturing yes, design? hell no they just manufacture other people's (QComm and others) designs
Memory - DDR, DDR2, DDR3 were all JEDEC -
They hold a number of the patents that make these things possible. Typically patents claim elements which describe how something would be made or achieved. It only becomes really confusing if you look at some of the "rectangle with rounded corners" types that don't really describe a complete device.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 03:18 PM   #222
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Here we go again!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjohnstone View Post
Software is protected by copyright. Someone rips off your program, you can sue the for copyright infringement.

If someone comes up with a better/different way to implement your program without using any of your copyrighted code they should be free to do so without fear of being sued.
This is called progress.

With software patents, the code itself becomes irrelevant. The process is protected and progress becomes much more difficult to achieve.


Considering Samsung invented many core technologies including standard essential patents regarding 3G and LTE radios, memory, CPU manufacturing, display tech, etc.
Those are true core tech. Without it, you have no iPhone.
Although to be fair, they did not come up with the only 3G inventions.
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 03:21 PM   #223
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Brace yourselves, the who holds X patent are coming
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 03:40 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Look and feel are not protected by copyright, that's where patents come in, please look things up before you talk about them.
Code? Code?? I never mentioned code. I said UI.
Look and feel cannot be patented... it can be trademarked, but not patented.
No you didn't say anything about UI... you said you were a "dev".
Developers write code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Let's go 1 by 1 here.

3G/LTE radios - manufacturing yes, design? hell no they just manufacture other people's (QComm and others) designs
So your saying none of Samsung's 819 LTE patents, some of which are currently used inside those Qualcomm chips, are not real?
The very same patents Samsung is suing Apple for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Memory - DDR, DDR2, DDR3 were all JEDEC - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JEDEC
not samsung. They manufacture them.
Ahh yes... JEDEC. Standard base memory patents, many of which expired a while ago.
Samsung has thousands of patents related to memory chip design and controllers.
But if you want to go that route, all cell phones must be a rip off of Bell Labs 1946 radio phone or Motorola's original 1973 patented designs right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyguy10709 View Post
Display tech - nope. nothing to do with the iPhone, OLED yes - but even Samsung is abandoning those.
That IPS display in the original iPhone is Samsung's patented design.
One of their IPS LCD display patents goes back to 1999 (USPTO 5907379).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Melab View Post
Although to be fair, they did not come up with the only 3G inventions.
Of course not.
Many of the very things people are complaining about being "copied" or "stolen", were created by various entities and improved upon over time.
The world does not need companies that try and lock out future development by claiming exclusivity through intimidation and lawsuits using weak if not completely bogus patents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchback666 View Post
Brace yourselves, the who holds X patent are coming
Yes... at some point the discussion might actually past the patents.
I'm guilty of it from time to time.
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Last edited by rjohnstone; Nov 26, 2012 at 03:52 PM. Reason: more comments
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Old Nov 26, 2012, 04:01 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by macfacts View Post
More like people don't like that Apple somehow got a government monopoly on rectangles or page turn animations.
This is an extremely biased statement. Apple didn't get a "monopoly" on rectangles. Furthermore, you heard Samsung's false statement and processed it as fact and failed to actually research exactly what patents Samsung was convicted of infringing upon.

The D504,889 patent is for the iPad's edge-to-edge glass, rounded corners, and thin bezel (which I assume you were referring to). This patent was NOT found by the courts to be infringed upon by Samsung. The patents that were found to be infringed upon were: 7,844,915 for single-finger scrolling and two-finger zooming, while number 7,864,163 claims tap-to-zoom technology. As for the design patents, D618,677 claims the iPhone's edge-to-edge glass, speaker slot and display border and D604,305 claims the grid-style icon layout in iOS.

The only exterior design patent infringed upon was the '677 patent. Which didn't even patent rectangular design, but rather - edge to edge glass, speaker slot and display border. Design elements which were blatantly copied by Samsung without gaining licensing and are not necessary to produce a mobile phone. They also awarded Trade Dress Claims for the iPhone - feeling that a number of Samsung mobile phone devices were similar enough to dilute Apple's brand. Again - not related to rectangles or rounded corners, but mainly on grid UI design, look and feel of UI, as well as edge to edge glass, speaker slot among other distinct Apple design features.

The main thing to realize here is not just that the jury felt they were similar enough to award, its that they found the infringement to be WILLFUL. Meaning they found evidence (in Samsung executive email exchanges) that pretty much compared their smartphones to the iPhone and pointed out where Samsung could improve. Many resolutions were simply, "iPhone has xx and looks much better. We must adopt this design/strategy, etc". I believe that without such clear cut evidence, Apple would not have won the '677 patent or Trade Dress Claims.

Last edited by jctevere; Nov 26, 2012 at 06:52 PM.
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