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Old Nov 29, 2012, 06:15 PM   #401
rdowns
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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
My theory is that there are people, and ZA may or may not be one of them, that dream of being a big wig and when they achieve big wig status they want all the 'perks' that go with it like getting paid millions to run a company into the ground and having a tax liability the size of gnat. This is really the only reason I can think of that so many middle and working class people vote against their own intests. They like to think their current situation is transient and that they'll 'make it big' one day soon even though the odds of that happening are pretty slim (especially in the U.S. that has surprisingly low economic mobility for a developed nation).

I see your point but just don't get it. I worked my ass off to get where I am and would never act like those who hold the poor and working class with such disdain. I say this as one whose taxes will likely go up and I really couldn't care less. A few thousand dollars less a year won't have any effect on my lifestyle.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 06:20 PM   #402
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“That’s the problem with the American Dream — makes everyone concerned for the day they’re gonna be rich.”
— Jed Bartlet, The West Wing (3.03 Ways and Means)
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 06:46 PM   #403
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“That’s the problem with the American Dream — makes everyone concerned for the day they’re gonna be rich.”
— Jed Bartlet, The West Wing (3.03 Ways and Means)
I just finished re-watching the first two seasons. If this guy were a real person running, he would have had my vote instantly.

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Old Nov 29, 2012, 09:36 PM   #404
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If I was an executive, and I knew that no matter what I did, I would get compensated even more if the company failed, then what would be my incentive to really keep it going? Especially if I could collect my winnings and move to another company.
Exactly! When you lose at a table in Vegas, you lose your money. They don't say hey, you sucked really badly so here's your money back and show you to the next table so you can do it all over again.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 09:39 PM   #405
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Exactly! When you lose at a table in Vegas, you lose your money. They don't say hey, you sucked really badly so here's your money back and show you to the next table so you can do it all over again.
but if you do lose big they do say, well, you lost all your money, have a free buffet.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 10:20 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
I see your point but just don't get it. I worked my ass off to get where I am and would never act like those who hold the poor and working class with such disdain. I say this as one whose taxes will likely go up and I really couldn't care less. A few thousand dollars less a year won't have any effect on my lifestyle.
I never said it was logical.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 10:26 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
My theory is that there are people, and ZA may or may not be one of them, that dream of being a big wig and when they achieve big wig status they want all the 'perks' that go with it like getting paid millions to run a company into the ground and having a tax liability the size of gnat. This is really the only reason I can think of that so many middle and working class people vote against their own intests. They like to think their current situation is transient and that they'll 'make it big' one day soon even though the odds of that happening are pretty slim (especially in the U.S. that has surprisingly low economic mobility for a developed nation).
This reminds me of a couple of posts from someone here on MacRumors a few years ago, which I had a little back and forth with:

Quote:
I only apply a single thought to every decision....does this make me money?
----
What you don't figure into that calculation is that money equals power. The more money you have the more power you have. Going to eat out someplace is pedestrian at best. Having the power to get people in that eatery hired or fired, drive away competitors, reward people who are loyal is the true thrill in life.
Some people really have the need for power over others.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:26 AM   #408
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Yeh right, lets hire someone who doesn't know what they are doing to liquidate a major corporation efficiently. Im sure one of the bakers can handle it.
The current board of directors ran the company into the ground, do they deserve anything? nope.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:33 AM   #409
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Pro tip: Buy all the Hostess products you can. Sell them on eBay in a few weeks or months (or years). Profit.

As long as you sell them before whomever buys the brand (you know it'll be bought, as a whole or in pieces) starts making them again.

Then rebrand them as "Classic Hostess". Sell more. Profit.
Yeah. Right. Jus the other day I saw a box of twinkies for sale on ebay for 12 grand

Ohh, but half goes to charity

Some people are scum.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:59 AM   #410
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but if you do lose big they do say, well, you lost all your money, have a free buffet.
Yeah, but in this case they give the free buffet to the croupier.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:04 PM   #411
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What do you get if you mismanage a company into bankruptcy?

How about a bonus!
If you want to know what is wrong with Corporate America (I can't speak for the rest of the world), if anything clearly illustrates the Corporate, Ego Zone, Managerial mindset, this is it. It is absolutely disgusting! Laws/regulations must be put into place so that management is PUNISHED for declaring bankruptsy, not rewarded. Stop allowing them to use bankruptsy as an easy means of breaking promises to their workers.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:37 PM   #412
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Yeh right, lets hire someone who doesn't know what they are doing to liquidate a major corporation efficiently. Im sure one of the bakers can handle it.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Good luck finding someone who is qualified, knows the company's assets, and is willing to quit their current job to join on a bankrupt company that is already shooting down the tubes for a limited amount of time without some outrageous numbers.
Actually, there are companies like Hilco Merchant Resources and Gordon Brothers Group that handle liquidations. Largely, it's a matter of those companies rolling in, analyzing what's in inventory, etc. and selling if off.

Companies like Borders Group Inc., Circuit City, and others have been taken apart this way. CEO retention during these efforts are largely symbolic and just another sign of the golden parachute mentality that drives so much mayhem in corporate America.


Let's review for a moment:

CEOs: Poorly manage company, fail to plan for future, innovate, or expand business. Drive company into bankruptcy, not once, but twice. Manage to get union to take wage concessions while robbing pension fund. Raises. Bonuses. Retention.

Workers: Do the job. Take concessions and wage cuts. Take more wage cuts. Refuse to take more wage and pension cuts. Blamed for destroying the company with their greed.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:05 PM   #413
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CEOs: Poorly manage company, fail to plan for future, innovate, or expand business. Drive company into bankruptcy, not once, but twice. Manage to get union to take wage concessions while robbing pension fund. Raises. Bonuses. Retention.

Workers: Do the job. Take concessions and wage cuts. Take more wage cuts. Refuse to take more wage and pension cuts. Blamed for destroying the company with their greed.
Perfect summary.

In some people's world, and we know whose, this is the correct way.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 01:15 PM   #414
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Damn unions.


Quote:
Hostess Brands acknowledged for the first time in a news report Monday that the company diverted workers' pension money for other company uses.

The bankrupt baker told The Wall Street Journal that money taken out of workers' paychecks, intended for their retirement funds, was used for company operations instead. Hostess, which was under different management at the time the diversions began in August 2011, said it does not know how much money it took.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2271868.html
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 01:23 PM   #415
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Right, so now "we" have to pay their pensions.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 01:50 PM   #416
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B-b-but...it's the unions!
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 02:40 PM   #417
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Enron/MCI-WorldCom/Tyco, round 2.

On a sadder note, I've noticed out here on the west coast, that most grocery store chains, Sam's Club, and Costco all have run out of their garlic sourdough bread without any intention of getting another vendor in for them. Interesting to note that, because they all came from Columbo, owned by Hostess.

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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:06 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
An extract of the WSJ version via Yahoo news:

Quote:
Hostess Brands Inc. said it used wages that were supposed to help fund employee pensions for the company's operations as it sank toward bankruptcy.

It isn't clear how many of the Irving, Texas, company's workers were affected by the move or how much money never wound up in their pension plans as promised.

After the company said in August 2011 that it would stop making pension contributions, the foregone wages weren't put toward the pension. Nor were they restored.
:

Quote:
Hostess hasn't previously acknowledged that the foregone wages went toward its operations.

The maneuver probably doesn't violate federal law because the money Hostess failed to put into the pension didn't come directly from employees, experts said.

"It's what lawyers call betrayal without remedy," said James P. Baker, a partner at Baker & McKenzie LLP who specializes in employee benefits and isn't involved in the Hostess case. "It's sad, but that stuff does happen, unfortunately."
:

Quote:
Halted pension contributions were a major factor in the bakers union's refusal to make a deal with the company. After a U.S. bankruptcy judge granted Hostess's request to impose a new contract, the union's employees went on strike. Hostess then moved to liquidate the company.

The bakers union represented about 5,600 of the company's 18,500 employees.

"The company's cessation of making pension contributions was a critical component of the bakers' decision" to walk off the job, said Jeffrey Freund of Bredhoff & Kaiser PLLC, a lawyer for the union.

"If they had continued to fund the pension, I think we'd still be working there today," said Craig Davis, a 44-year-old forklift operator who loaded trucks with Twinkies, cupcakes and sweet rolls at an Emporia, Kan., bakery, for nearly 22 years.
:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hostes...051400720.html

There is lots more to read here about the details.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:11 PM   #419
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I just finished re-watching the first two seasons. If this guy were a real person running, he would have had my vote instantly.

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