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Old Nov 29, 2012, 12:09 AM   #201
Cubytus
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10.6.8 or 10.6.3 ?

Same question has been asked, but from what I read nobidy seem to have provided an answer. Is it the 10.6.8 with updated drivers for 2012 Macs ? The website lists is as only requiring an "Intel CPU", which could basically mean any current Mac, including the Retina ones.

Had my late-2011 MBP checked in for regular FireWire-caused freezes, and the techie called me to perform another test. He wanted to "upgrade" me to Lion, and I served him with an authoritarian "NO". He readily understood why, first as my scanner isn't supported well in Lion and manufacturer's software is PowerPC-only. Plus plenty of other reason pertaining to usability.

That is not to say that Lion and ML are not usable, far from it. But the transition from the "old" way to the "new" way is simply too great to adapt to quickly. IMHO Apple was eager to set the basis for the "new" way, but thus doing, neglected to take care of the "experience" itself.

Such can be seen in the current MBP Retina design: Apple cut remote control capability, you can't lock your computer to a heavy object anymore, no more optical drive, smaller storage, but you get faster storage and stunning screen.

Disclaimer: I work in a multi-platform environment, including different Linux flavors on older machines, and sometimes receive cheap hardware from China whose software sit on an 8cm CD-ROM. Even if it's bulky for the amount of data held, optical media is still the fastest and easiest way to boot any computer. Here's the reason why I still have 15 DVD-RW for that only purpose - burn a variety of Linux distros and diagnostic tools.

However, I will still run a hacked ML in VirtualBox, see if I can get used to it. Surely 16GB of RAM won't hurt
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 12:27 AM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post

Had my late-2011 MBP checked in for regular FireWire-caused freezes, and the techie called me to perform another test. He wanted to "upgrade" me to Lion,

)
I thought the early 2011 MBP was the last to boot to SL.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 12:41 AM   #203
Eithanius
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Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
Same question has been asked, but from what I read nobidy seem to have provided an answer. Is it the 10.6.8 with updated drivers for 2012 Macs ? The website lists is as only requiring an "Intel CPU", which could basically mean any current Mac, including the Retina ones.
Where on earth did you get such thing as 10.6.8 WITH UPDATED DRIVERS...?

Snow Leopard cut short of maintenance supports ever since Lion came out, and so far what's supported are the periodical security updates in tandem with its successors' maintenance update releases. Heck, the next update on 10.8.3, we don't even know if there are any further security updates for SL.

As long as Apple is putting out the current OS X, that is what's gonna be the minimum requirements on all shipping Macs. Lion was released in July 2011, and Mountain Lion 12 months after. So Macs released in 2012 WILL NOT run 10.6.8. Period.

For the record, "Intel CPU only" was meant to address the issue AT THAT TIME of 10.6 being the first Mac OS X release to run solely on Intel CPU. Snow Leopard have abandoned the PowerPC architecture, unlike the immediate predecessor 10.5 Leopard which runs on both architectures. It does not mean it can be installed on current Macs, even though they are still Intel CPU.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 10:22 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by stroked View Post
I thought the early 2011 MBP was the last to boot to SL.
It was, indeed, and this is the reason why I could reinstall it without major hitch, once I laid my hands on another, older MB. Funnily enough, when I checked in this computer for a HDD cable replacement (was causing kernel panics), the Genius didn't ask and reinstalled Snow Leopard (they originally refused my request when I bought the machine early 2012.) using a HDD-based 10.6.8 with iLife in it. Don't know however if they used an already-existing DVD image, or made this image in-house.

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Originally Posted by Eithanius View Post
Where on earth did you get such thing as 10.6.8 WITH UPDATED DRIVERS...?
RELAX! THIS IS ONLY A QUESTION!

Quote:
Snow Leopard cut short of maintenance supports ever since Lion came out, and so far what's supported are the periodical security updates in tandem with its successors' maintenance update releases. Heck, the next update on 10.8.3, we don't even know if there are any further security updates for SL.

As long as Apple is putting out the current OS X, that is what's gonna be the minimum requirements on all shipping Macs. Lion was released in July 2011, and Mountain Lion 12 months after. So Macs released in 2012 WILL NOT run 10.6.8. Period.

For the record, "Intel CPU only" was meant to address the issue AT THAT TIME of 10.6 being the first Mac OS X release to run solely on Intel CPU. Snow Leopard have abandoned the PowerPC architecture, unlike the immediate predecessor 10.5 Leopard which runs on both architectures. It does not mean it can be installed on current Macs, even though they are still Intel CPU.
This is a valid understatement considering Apple isn't used to develop more than one OS at a time. However, the same kind of imprecision is not typical from Apple, as Intel include all Apple computers from 2006 to now. Hence the supposition that Apple may have included, one way or another, updated drivers for newer machines in its Snow Leopard.

Lion was flawed and "dumbed down", as a variety of source point it, and there was initially a large backlash against it from previous OS X version users. As far as I know, this is the only Mac OS X version that triggered such a strong reaction with tutorials to reverse to SL flourishing over the Internet. Proof is, Apple quickly released Mountain Lion a small year after the first Lion release. And what would be the point of re-releasing an old version of the software if it didn't serve any purpose. Meeting the minimum requirements for ML may be such a reason.

On the other hand, do machines that originally shipped with Leopard (the ones likely, according to your statement, to need an upgrade to SL) have the necessary grunt to run Mountain Lion?

Trust it or not, a lot of people need to run PowerPC software (Proprietary scientific software for a 5-figures 256 electrodes EEG system, for example), and as Rosetta isn't under Apple's control, updating drivers on 10.6.8 may be easier than trying to get Rosetta running on ML.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 11:18 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post

This is a valid understatement considering Apple isn't used to develop more than one OS at a time. However, the same kind of imprecision is not typical from Apple, as Intel include all Apple computers from 2006 to now. Hence the supposition that Apple may have included, one way or another, updated drivers for newer machines in its Snow Leopard.

Lion was flawed and "dumbed down", as a variety of source point it, and there was initially a large backlash against it from previous OS X version users. As far as I know, this is the only Mac OS X version that triggered such a strong reaction with tutorials to reverse to SL flourishing over the Internet. Proof is, Apple quickly released Mountain Lion a small year after the first Lion release. And what would be the point of re-releasing an old version of the software if it didn't serve any purpose. Meeting the minimum requirements for ML may be such a reason.

On the other hand, do machines that originally shipped with Leopard (the ones likely, according to your statement, to need an upgrade to SL) have the necessary grunt to run Mountain Lion?

Trust it or not, a lot of people need to run PowerPC software (Proprietary scientific software for a 5-figures 256 electrodes EEG system, for example), and as Rosetta isn't under Apple's control, updating drivers on 10.6.8 may be easier than trying to get Rosetta running on ML.
I don't want to split hairs here, but to cut things short, updated drivers on Snow Leopard is SO NOT going to happen. Apple is now 2 major release ahead of Snow Leopard, and you would think they will have to drill down to all the new components since late 2011 models just to incorporate drivers so that you guys can run PowerPC apps...? It's time to move on. Even my time with PPC apps are numbered I admit. So it's either you're forced to upgrade, or forced to be left behind. It's called progress...

Look at it as a transition, like the transition from OS 9 to OS X... Lion and Mountain Lion probably represents some sort of a new soft-architecture (pardon my limited vocabulary), it's probably a major rewrite of their underlying codes to incorporate new technologies like sand-boxing and the likes.

To put this on Snow Leopard, I think Apple would have to denote a separate team leading to 2 separate OS X versions. While I personally love to see Apple do that, it sounds more like Micro***** with their Basic and Pro versions. And Apple is not a software company to start with.

As for machines that shipped with Leopard, I believe there's either some confusion between what I meant as the last OS to support PowerPC Macs, and your... whatever you wanna believe that to be - I have no idea what you're talking about...


Here's my questions to you since I'm curious of how things work here:

If Apple issues updated drivers for Snow Leopard, how would you install it on Lion- and Mountain Lion-shipped Macs...? Using the disc above...? Remember that these Macs do not have pre-installation discs, only with a Recovery HD partition...

Use the disc like the one they're selling on the Online Store...? Those disc comes only with 10.6.3, updated drivers are a little far fetched now...

Issue an updated disc with 10.6.8 WITH updated drivers on it...? Kinda break their ways of putting in custom-build OS X tied to each individual machines ain't it...? By then Apple will have 2 competing OS X'es now...


I'm really curious what you have in mind for Apple. Because now I'm really wishing you'd be working for Apple, so that I get to ditch my current MBP and opt for a rMBP with Snow Leopard UPDATED with Retina support...
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 05:06 PM   #206
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Precisely, you completely missed the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with PowerPC. I believe that users have lots of reasons save for Rosetta to run SL. Only, it is an easy example that I develop.

"Time to move on" is NOT under the user's control. It is under the editor's control. Apple already shown that newer version sometimes just don't have the capabilities of older ones; the software may not be updated by its but still need to be used, as my EEG example showed. One doesn't replace a 5-figures EEG system just because Apple said it must be.

"Progress" is not dumbing everything down. Mac administrators tend not to like Lion or ML. These will surely be improved but in the meantime, they get training on both SL and Lion/ML. There's no point in being miles ahead when you're not followed. To your credit, new Mac users are probably very happy with their Lion/ML. As you point it, there are a lot of interesting technologies built in ML and Lion. Again, this has nothing to do with the backlash from users. What's missing is what caused the backlash, and I really can't list all missing features and useless ones and instabilities that many complain about.

Only mines that are: need PowerPC compatibility, useless Launchpad, stability issues with eduroam network, ****** App Store that suggest an update even when platform isn't compatible.

All said that, for multiple reasons, people may just not have upgraded yet, or worse, looked for a downgrade.

Nobody said it was the right thing to incorporate everything new in SL. After all, if such an extensive effort was required, just update ML! Remember that SL was considered in its time to be a welcomed refinement of an excellent OS, Leopard. Putting the least amount of effort to make SL compatible is not incorporating radical changes such as sandboxing (I am unsure it's not included at all in SL) or Retina support. Just "connecting" updated drivers, and leave everything else the same.

To answer your questions:
- People would buy 10.6.8 discs with updated drivers retail, and install SL on their Lion/Mountain Lion-shipped machines.

- Genius bar uses 10.6.8 images on their troubleshooting HDD that work on ALL machines. Why this version wouldn't exist on a DVD?

- it surely isn't in Apple's habit to go back. But to refresh your short memory, they did shipped both custom images of any OS that was current at the time with all new machines, along with universal images of the same OSes on DVD or CD-ROM for retail sale.

Now, they ship machines with a recovery partition and network-capable BIOS to re-create it if needed, and all software images. But so far, Lion and I believe also Mountain Lion recovery mechanisms are completely unable to hook onto a web-authenticated or WPA2-Enterprise authenticated network, which I found was a major hindrance.

As neither of us is working for Apple, I consider my questions to be reasonable.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 10:24 PM   #207
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To cut things short, it's time for you to look for other platforms...

Believe me, I'd wish the latest hardware can run Snow Leopard as well, but to have SL to run on rMBPs alone will already give Apple the headache, they probably messed up SL WITH your so-called updated drivers after the L/ML debacle. I still don't understand why can't you see the point...

It's regression to say the least... Just look at iTunes 11, I see the L/ML factor already. Slow and buggy...
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:46 AM   #208
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 06:40 AM   #209
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More proof that you have absolutely no clue of what is being discussed.
Sorry you feel that way. It's definitely true I don't get the vitriole aimed at ML and to be honest, when someone is asked a question and they respond with "I used to have a Mac Pro, that should tell you all you need to know", I lose hope in humanity. Such a response doesn't tell anyone anything, except what that person thinks of themselves. Lots of people have had or have Mac pros, including self. I also like and use ML. Neither of those tells you absolutely anything about how I work or the sort of work I do. Although, since I use ML, I guess it also follows that I wasn't married to a particular style of workflow that SL dictated and I didn't use Rosetta apps I cared a great deal about. I've also been an Apple user for 20 years and have learned to not get married to anything except change. But that might be as far as you can take it.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:17 PM   #210
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To cut things short, it's time for you to look for other platforms...
There is no 1-stop support for any other platform, period. I used to run Ubuntu back from 2007 to 2008 as I got fed up with Window's constant requirements for attention and unexpected issues. Don't get me wrong here, I ran Windows 2000 Pro as a daily driver before that and I considered it even more stable than (gasp!) Mac OS X, as I could routinely get uptimes of 60 days or more on an indestructible Celeron 500MHz. I then got a powerful laptop PC back in 2004 that also ran Windows 2000 Pro, but was a lemon that ended up costing more in repairs & back and forth shipping before UPS stole it in 2006.

I like tinkering with computers, but got past the age I had hours or days to spend doing so. Even if I *do* know how to repair many computer issues, I just don't want to go through the hassle of doing it myself. Hence, after a disastrous experience - term is important, I'm talking about commercial respect, customer support more than the machine itself - with a supposedly premium laptop PC, my natural choice was an Apple laptop. Much lighter, almost inaudible, three times the battery life, and just one place to go when a quirk appears.

Sure, Apple's OS has many half-baked functions - think only monolingual Dictionary application, underdeveloped Services, no real manual for Automator, iSync, etc. - but they don't really get in your way.

Quote:
Believe me, I'd wish the latest hardware can run Snow Leopard as well, but to have SL to run on rMBPs alone will already give Apple the headache, they probably messed up SL WITH your so-called updated drivers after the L/ML debacle. I still don't understand why can't you see the point...

It's regression to say the least... Just look at iTunes 11, I see the L/ML factor already. Slow and buggy...
Why are you using a past tense here? Until proven wrong, Apple has NOT integrated newer drivers in its SL yet. This is merely a *supposition* considering they typically are more precise when listing hardware requirements.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:23 PM   #211
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Why are you using a past tense here? Until proven wrong, Apple has NOT integrated newer drivers in its SL yet. This is merely a *supposition* considering they typically are more precise when listing hardware requirements.
What makes you think they haven't...? That's why I'm curious, do you work for Apple that you're absolutely certain they haven't...?

You brag about supposition, and yet you're conflicting yourself...?

Else consider my England sucks...
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 10:15 PM   #212
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What makes you think they haven't...? That's why I'm curious, do you work for Apple that you're absolutely certain they haven't...?

You brag about supposition, and yet you're conflicting yourself...?

Else consider my England sucks...
Even assuming you're a native English speaker, which I admit am not, I believe you're the only one to see a contradiction here. It seems that powerful grammatical correctors applications just don't exist for the English language.

This was perfectly clear from the start I inferred that 10.6.8 may have been modified to suit "Macintoshes with Intel CPU", and it seems you agreed they may have failed trying to do so. What Apple tried but didn't release stays within Apple's archives. The inference remains such "until proven wrong" by an official Apple statement, a post by a forum user showing screen captures, etc. Seems you have trouble telling inferences from conclusions.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 11:30 PM   #213
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Even assuming you're a native English speaker, which I admit am not, I believe you're the only one to see a contradiction here. It seems that powerful grammatical correctors applications just don't exist for the English language.

This was perfectly clear from the start I inferred that 10.6.8 may have been modified to suit "Macintoshes with Intel CPU", and it seems you agreed they may have failed trying to do so. What Apple tried but didn't release stays within Apple's archives. The inference remains such "until proven wrong" by an official Apple statement, a post by a forum user showing screen captures, etc. Seems you have trouble telling inferences from conclusions.
This is turning into a pointless discussion... Go do what you do best stated on your signature and we'll see about Apple resurrecting Snow Leopard on 2012 and the upcoming 2013 Macs...
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 03:14 PM   #214
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I've got my new Mac Mini Server Quad i7 up and running with 10.8.2 and the latest server software update now. Overall, the only thing I really miss from Snow Leopard (and Leopard) is the "Spaces" setup it had. I'm not sure how to set up a separate work area yet (obvious in Snow Leopard). Launch Control is just an extra option and frankly works quite well for finding certain apps very quickly (not a huge fan of the default list mode when you click something like the downloads folder since it defaults to the MIDDLE of the freaking list instead of the top (like Leopard does). I'm not sure if there's a way to change that behavior (doubt it given Apple's nature). I think there's a few defaults that need to be changed on a stock setup based on using my mother's new Macbook I got her (seeing I migrated my old PPC machine, most of its settings were carried over automatically to Mountain Lion, including a few things that don't work, but they weren't too hard to remove).

Sadly, I can't use Office 2004 any longer and I don't know if I want to spend anything on the newer M$ Office since I really only use it for writing lyrics (and my album is done so I won't even be doing that for awhile) and the occasional printing labels. I'll probably just get OpenOffice or something instead or install my Office 2000 for Windows in XP in a virtual machine or whatever).

Photoshop CS3 DOES appear to work fine here, though (from limited testing so far; the migration tool set it all up automatically so if there's an install issue like I read in some threads elsewhere with Lion, at least, it must have bypassed it).

Games like Diablo 2 don't work any longer, but I figure I can set up a virtual machine with my old XP Pro or something or use one of the Wine binaries out there. I think most of my other software works or updates of it do (e.g. CCC needed an update, but since I donated a long time ago, I got a free license and it's up and running now as well). I've probably missed something, but overall, it's just not THAT different to be too upset (plus my MBP still has Snow Leopard on it for now; I'll see how the Mini goes for awhile longer before I decide to upgrade or not there; my Netbook has Snow Leopard on it too for that matter and always will since it's 32-bit).
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 03:16 PM   #215
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I am late to the party but Apple, while proud of its new OS adoption rate, just had to admit to the fact that people are not running the latest hardware and are going to get left out of the cash cow iTunes/iDevice without keeping Snow Leopard support around.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 11:44 AM   #216
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I am late to the party but Apple, while proud of its new OS adoption rate, just had to admit to the fact that people are not running the latest hardware and are going to get left out of the cash cow iTunes/iDevice without keeping Snow Leopard support around.
Well, we can relax a bit. Most software are still Snow Leopard compatible, so there's no hurry to ditch it.

----------

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This is turning into a pointless discussion... Go do what you do best stated on your signature and we'll see about Apple resurrecting Snow Leopard on 2012 and the upcoming 2013 Macs...
I did, FYI. And as it may surprise you, that was not to complain about SL dying, but pointing Lion's blatant flaws that are right in your face. I can't say anything about Mountain Lion as I still can't get it to boot on Virtual Box.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 12:47 PM   #217
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My brother has a 2008 iMac which shipped with leopard 10.5, should he upgrade to 10.6 snow leopard?
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 10:47 PM   #218
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My brother has a 2008 iMac which shipped with leopard 10.5, should he upgrade to 10.6 snow leopard?
I would say "definitely". SL strengthens the basis of Leopard, an excellent OS, doesn'T add many features, hence, more stable.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:35 AM   #219
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Gosh, I am so outdated I can't believe it. SL is such an old OS ...

I think some users are overreacting on both sides. Sure ML and L have their advantages but also disadvantages.
The interface hasn't changed that much that it makes sense to claim that people who are still on 10.6 want to be "frozen in time". Maybe for some folks this is true but for me it's just a question of features (and speed of boot- and shut-down-time (show me a Win7 Machine which boots in 35 Sec with a 5400rpm HDD)).

Believe it or not I still use Front Row in combination with a 15€ HDMI-Mini-Display-Port Cable. This beats the Apple TV in price. So at the moment I don't need an Apple TV Box. Sure, in the future I would like to use AirPlay, but at the moment I have all I need.

Second, I just finished my master thesis and with the old Expose it was a joy to work (I know ML does have the old Expose, but at the time of the 10.8 release I already finished my work).

In my opinion, update for updates sake makes no sense. With an updated browser and the use of common sense I also think that security is not an argument.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:35 AM   #220
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I'm picturing you using a Newton on a 1966 Mustang
No chance, I am still using a horse-drawn carriage.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 12:12 PM   #221
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No chance, I am still using a horse-drawn carriage.
LOL I'm following you with my horse using an eMate!
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 12:57 PM   #222
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So does this mean that iTunes 11 will run on SL?

Yes. I'm already running it.

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Apple still periodically releases stuff for Snow Leopard. They just recently did an upgrade to Mail.app and broke my favorite plug-in -- I had to reinstall the OS on two computers and not apply the update.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 12:58 PM   #223
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Yes. I'm already running it.
I know that, I asked that question before iTunes 11 was out.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:31 PM   #224
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The Holy Trinity: Serlet, Ive, and Jobs.
Amen to that!
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 07:44 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by I WAS the one View Post
LOL I'm following you with my horse using an eMate!
Well it's gotta be better than Apple Maps on iOS 6...
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