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Old Nov 29, 2012, 08:32 PM   #76
MadeTheSwitch
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If a person is unhappy with the pay and benefits that walmart is providing then maybe they should look for employment at costco. No ons is making them work there.
As if Costco is a bottomless pit of jobs. The bigger question to ask yourself is why can't a more livable wage be paid by places like Walmart and Sams Club when the owners are sitting on literally billions? It would benefit everyone, including you if employee's work making a wage that people could actually live on. Having working poor work their butts off and still have to have assistance to make ends meet does not do ANYONE any favors. It's counter to a healthy society. As long as this situation remains, we are holding our own country back.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 09:34 PM   #77
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As if Costco is a bottomless pit of jobs. The bigger question to ask yourself is why can't a more livable wage be paid by places like Walmart and Sams Club when the owners are sitting on literally billions? It would benefit everyone, including you if employee's work making a wage that people could actually live on. Having working poor work their butts off and still have to have assistance to make ends meet does not do ANYONE any favors. It's counter to a healthy society. As long as this situation remains, we are holding our own country back.
Maybe Obama and his BIG Government should do something about this?
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 10:27 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by edk99 View Post
If a person is unhappy with the pay and benefits that walmart is providing then maybe they should look for employment at costco. No ons is making them work there.
Maybe they used to work at some place better until Walmart rolled in and drove many of the other employers out of business?

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My eyes are pretty open. I find it hard to believe that you work with 40+ yr old so called IT professionals that can't find work is mind boggling.
I find it hard to believe that someone can't be aware of the crumbling middle class in America. Or do you think that the unemployment trend over the last 8 years or so is because millions of people all just decided to walk away from their jobs in search of something lower paying and less fulfilling?

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Maybe Obama and his BIG Government should do something about this?
So you are okay with company X not paying a living wage, not offering health insurance etc., to its employees even though that means tax dollars will be spent filling in the gaps so these employees get health coverage or make ends meet? Why should taxpayers be on the hook for subsidizing the payroll of multinational corporations?

If the private sector isn't willing to step up to the plate what are the other options? Maybe if more private companies weren't so willfully reckless and destructive all this government oversight you aren't a fan of wouldn't exist? I mean, which came first child labor, or laws against child labor? Polluting the environment or laws against polluting the environment? Knowingly selling poisoned food or laws against selling poisoned food? OSHA, the FDA, the EPA, etc., all exist because of the private sector's inability to police its own brass.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 10:53 PM   #79
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Maybe Obama and his BIG Government should do something about this?
Whenever the jobs don't pay enough, we pay for it indirectly. Higher wages can drive prices up, but it also alleviates the need for subsidies. I'm curious what you believe was the last administration that really stood by your idea of a small government.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 11:08 PM   #80
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Whenever the jobs don't pay enough, we pay for it indirectly. Higher wages can drive prices up, but it also alleviates the need for subsidies. I'm curious what you believe was the last administration that really stood by your idea of a small government.
Maybe Zachary Taylor? It looks like spending hit an all-time low near zero around the the time of his brief administration, as illustrated here:



Federal spending was generally quite low from Monroe on to the start of the Civil War. Of course, it is a little harder to Google what spending was at the individual state+county+city level back then, but we can guess it was usually pretty small.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 11:16 PM   #81
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Maybe Zachary Taylor? It looks like spending hit an all-time low near zero around the the time of his brief administration, as illustrated here:
I recognize that name, but I don't know anything about his administration. I may search for a book on it later.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 11:44 PM   #82
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What people don't understand is that if we don't loosen restrictions and lower taxes for the rich, they won't give us jobs!

Obama is trying to push this "green" crap on us by funding alternative fuels and tightening restrictions against coal and fossil fuels. In a perfect world(or economy), maybe this would pan out, but he is just hurting us more than helping us. We are not in any position to tighten restrictions on fuels that are already too high. Because of his energy efficiency crap some 300,000 jobs were lost a few weeks ago because he tightened restrictions on coal. Back to funding alternative energy, he has invested our money on electric cars that the average american could never see in his or her lifetime, cars that cost upwards 100,000 dollars.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:57 AM   #83
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What people don't understand is that if we don't loosen restrictions and lower taxes for the rich, they won't give us jobs!
Why would giving them even more substantial avenues to profit result in them hiring more people? The fewer workers they have the less profit they have and right now corporations in America, as a whole, are experiencing near record high profits and record low taxes. They even got a tax holiday in 2004 (which resulted in more layoffs and an overall net loss for the Feds according to a Congressional study). Just exactly how much more do we need to sweeten the pot before they stop laying people off (let alone hiring more people on)?

They only way they are going to hire more people is if an increase in demand means they have no other choice but to expand and the only way to increase demand is if consumers have enough money to purchase goods and services.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 06:41 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by 76ShovelHead View Post
What people don't understand is that if we don't loosen restrictions and lower taxes for the rich, they won't give us jobs!

Obama is trying to push this "green" crap on us by funding alternative fuels and tightening restrictions against coal and fossil fuels. In a perfect world(or economy), maybe this would pan out, but he is just hurting us more than helping us. We are not in any position to tighten restrictions on fuels that are already too high. Because of his energy efficiency crap some 300,000 jobs were lost a few weeks ago because he tightened restrictions on coal. Back to funding alternative energy, he has invested our money on electric cars that the average american could never see in his or her lifetime, cars that cost upwards 100,000 dollars.

I see someone else has bought into the Repulican hype. Taxes are at their lowest level since 1980. Where are the jobs?

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But in fact, most Americans in 2010 paid far less in total taxes — federal, state and local — than they would have paid 30 years ago. According to an analysis by The New York Times, the combination of all income taxes, sales taxes and property taxes took a smaller share of their income than it took from households with the same inflation-adjusted income in 1980.

Households earning more than $200,000 benefited from the largest percentage declines in total taxation as a share of income. Middle-income households benefited, too. More than 85 percent of households with earnings above $25,000 paid less in total taxes than comparable households in 1980
And since your ilk tells us that these $200,000 and up earners are the job creators, again, where are the jobs?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/30/us...l?src=twr&_r=0
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:09 AM   #85
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I see someone else has bought into the Repulican hype. Taxes are at their lowest level since 1980. Where are the jobs?



And since your ilk tells us that these $200,000 and up earners are the job creators, again, where are the jobs?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/30/us...l?src=twr&_r=0
Yes, I am a republican. Thank you for noticing.

Where are the Jobs? Obama scared them away. What with tightening coal restrictions and raising taxes on corporations, they've decided to move overseas. Your argument is invalid. Any way you'd like to look at it, 4% of their taxes is more than what we would make in a lifetime. So lets raise their taxes and let them pay us to work for them, that sounds fair.

Meanwhile our wonderful president is funding electric car company Fisker, so that they can build cars in finland. He's doing such a great job. Need I mention that this is a luxury car company with models ranging $100,000.00 and up? Something most americans could never afford.

And while were one that social issue, how about we discuss Obama's campaigning in Mexico showing mexicans how to get onto our food stamps. He is deliberately sabotaging the USA. But Hey, I'm a republican so he didn't get my vote!
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:45 AM   #86
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Yes, I am a republican. Thank you for noticing.

Where are the Jobs? Obama scared them away. What with tightening coal restrictions and raising taxes on corporations, they've decided to move overseas. Your argument is invalid. Any way you'd like to look at it, 4% of their taxes is more than what we would make in a lifetime. So lets raise their taxes and let them pay us to work for them, that sounds fair.
Yes, Obama was the reason we were losing jobs at a rate of 700,000+ per month in 2008. Please provide me with a cite that Obama raised taxes on corporations. It just isn't true.

Quote:
Meanwhile our wonderful president is funding electric car company Fisker, so that they can build cars in finland. He's doing such a great job. Need I mention that this is a luxury car company with models ranging $100,000.00 and up? Something most americans could never afford.

And while were one that social issue, how about we discuss Obama's campaigning in Mexico showing mexicans how to get onto our food stamps. He is deliberately sabotaging the USA. But Hey, I'm a republican so he didn't get my vote!
You are living in a fantasy world.

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And Fisker Automotive, a manufacturer of luxury hybrid electric cars based in Anaheim, Calif., said the Republican committee’s description of the company as a “stimulus recipient” was false. The Obama administration approved up to $529 million in loans for the company, but they were under a George W. Bush-era program intended to spur more fuel-efficient technologies, not the stimulus package. The company has taken only $193 million of the loans.

In addition, the company disputes Republican claims that Fisker’s federal money “went abroad for jobs that weren’t created in the United States.” The company is assembling its first electric car, called the Karma, in Finland. But Fisker and Energy Department officials say the portion of the loans being used for the Karma — about $169 million — has been spent on hiring and other functions solely in California and Michigan. “Every single dollar of the loan has been used in the U.S.,” said Roger Ormisher, Fisker’s senior director of global communications.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/us...pagewanted=all


Quote:

The Obama administration met with Mexican officials and held other events to discuss enrollment in food stamps and similar programs roughly 30 times since President Obama took office, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack revealed in a recent letter to Congress.
They were among 151 documented meetings and events held since 2004, when the United States and Mexico first started partnering on food-stamp awareness. That partnership, though, has raised alarm with Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., who is concerned the collaboration amounts to a vehicle for the USDA to pressure people onto the food-stamp rolls -- in this case, noncitizen immigrants from Mexico.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2938739/posts
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:02 AM   #87
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Yes, Obama was the reason we were losing jobs at a rate of 700,000+ per month in 2008. Please provide me with a cite that Obama raised taxes on corporations. It just isn't true.



You are living in a fantasy world.
Ok, lets go there.

Bush did what he had to do. WTH do you expect? We get attacked and so we gracefully submit? Yeah maybe if Obama was running the country back then. Remember, Obama was all for building a MOSQUE in remembrance to those muslims who KILLED U.S. CITIZENS.

And to make matters worse Obama APOLOGIZED on behalf of the U.S. We didn't need to apologize.

Your argument remains invalid. Nothing Obama accomplished (yeah right!) during his presidency could redeem him after that incident.

Bush didn't have a fair chance to run the country. I think he did a great job with everything he had to deal with, he showed that ***** like that won't fly, we won't tolerate it. And for that I commemorate him.

You sir, are the one living in fantasy land.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by 76ShovelHead View Post
Ok, lets go there.

Bush did what he had to do. WTH do you expect? We get attacked and so we gracefully submit? Yeah maybe if Obama was running the country back then. Remember, Obama was all for building a MOSQUE in remembrance to those muslims who KILLED U.S. CITIZENS.

And to make matters worse Obama APOLOGIZED on behalf of the U.S. We didn't need to apologize.

Your argument remains invalid. Nothing Obama accomplished (yeah right!) during his presidency could redeem him after that incident.

Bush didn't have a fair chance to run the country. I think he did a great job with everything he had to deal with, he showed that ***** like that won't fly, we won't tolerate it. And for that I commemorate him.

You sir, are the one living in fantasy land.
Yeah, we really showed those terrorists. A pointless war that lasted more than a decade, put our country into massive amounts of debt, killed our soldiers, and bred a mindset of fear and distrust in our people. Oh, and did I mention the first country we tried to 'fix' wasn't even the right one? Please tell us how else we can keep 'winning' at this game.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:58 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by 76ShovelHead View Post
Ok, lets go there.

Bush did what he had to do. WTH do you expect? We get attacked and so we gracefully submit? Yeah maybe if Obama was running the country back then. Remember, Obama was all for building a MOSQUE in remembrance to those muslims who KILLED U.S. CITIZENS.

And to make matters worse Obama APOLOGIZED on behalf of the U.S. We didn't need to apologize.

Your argument remains invalid. Nothing Obama accomplished (yeah right!) during his presidency could redeem him after that incident.

Bush didn't have a fair chance to run the country. I think he did a great job with everything he had to deal with, he showed that ***** like that won't fly, we won't tolerate it. And for that I commemorate him.

You sir, are the one living in fantasy land.

Yeah, I'm the one living in a fantasy world. Are you allergic to facts?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:08 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by 76ShovelHead View Post
Ok, lets go there.

Bush did what he had to do. WTH do you expect? We get attacked and so we gracefully submit? Yeah maybe if Obama was running the country back then. Remember, Obama was all for building a MOSQUE in remembrance to those muslims who KILLED U.S. CITIZENS.

And to make matters worse Obama APOLOGIZED on behalf of the U.S. We didn't need to apologize.

Your argument remains invalid. Nothing Obama accomplished (yeah right!) during his presidency could redeem him after that incident.

Bush didn't have a fair chance to run the country. I think he did a great job with everything he had to deal with, he showed that ***** like that won't fly, we won't tolerate it. And for that I commemorate him.

You sir, are the one living in fantasy land.
First, it wasn't a Mosque, it was a community center. Second, who cares if there is a Mosque being built in an abandoned building. At least something was being built and how can you fault American Muslims for wanting to rebuild in an area where extremists destroyed a vibrant economy? *(edit - are you suggesting the US Government should abandon the Constitution and begin descriminating openly against religions and races {kind of like the GOP})

Second, there was never an apology tour as the right-wingers loved to claim. The President never apologized for America, despite all the TERRIBLE things his predecessor did. If the President wanted to apologize, he would have encouraged the Democrats in 2009 to do what his base wanted: bring up the entire Bush administration up on criminal charges and/or investigate the criminal activities of that administration.

Third, this President has accomplished more in four years than Bush did in eight, and that's despite dealing with a crumbling economy (thanks Bush) and two unpaid for wars.

Finally, Bush was given every benefit of the doubt and Democrats actually rallied behind him after 9/11. He had a chance to run this country the Republicans NEVER gave Obama, and despite their non-stop obstruction, we still have an improving economy, more jobs, and a housing market that is recovering.

Despite Republicans, not because of them.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:20 AM   #91
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/26/op...e-wealthy.html

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Originally Posted by Warren Buffet
The group [of the highest 400 incomes in the USA] average income in 2009 was $202 million — which works out to a “wage” of $97,000 per hour, based on a 40-hour workweek. (I’m assuming they’re paid during lunch hours.) Yet more than a quarter of these ultrawealthy paid less than 15 percent of their take in combined federal income and payroll taxes. Half of this crew paid less than 20 percent. And — brace yourself — a few actually paid nothing.

...

we need Congress, right now, to enact a minimum tax on high incomes. I would suggest 30 percent of taxable income between $1 million and $10 million, and 35 percent on amounts above that. A plain and simple rule like that will block the efforts of lobbyists, lawyers and contribution-hungry legislators to keep the ultrarich paying rates well below those incurred by people with income just a tiny fraction of ours. Only a minimum tax on very high incomes will prevent the stated tax rate from being eviscerated by these warriors for the wealthy.
I totally agree with this.

People are actually earning the equivalent of $100,000 an hour. It comes to a point where the principle of free enterprise has to be checked by basic morality and fairness.

No matter what you do, there's no way you deserve $100,000 an hour while others can work in back-breaking jobs their entire lives and never see anything even remotely close to those kinds of figures.

The country has enormous resources. Why are people who worked their whole lives losing their homes from medical bills they can't pay, while others are making such grotesque amounts of money? We don't need to accept that. We should not accept that. It goes against every human instinct to allow that kind of imbalance.

Oh, and those are just personal income taxes. Don't get me started on corporate profits and the ridiculously low tax rates they can pay!

I'm very much a fan of the plain and simple rule. Right now we've got mega accounting firms that conspire to help these ultra-rich people pay 20%, 15% or even 0% tax. We need this to be concise and unambiguous.

Income equality and wealth hoarding hurts everyone. We need more people like Warren Buffet.

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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:18 AM   #92
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Raising taxes is going to drive corporations further outside the US. All of the history that liberals used with 90% tax rates with prosperity was before globalization took off. The US isn't in control of what corporations do right now as they aren't locked up by physical boundaries anymore. Much like smaller domestic corporations fish around US states for the lowest tax rates and the best tax breaks before putting in a plant, the global corporations do this on a worldwide scale. If they can do something in another country cheaper than in the US due to taxes they will, and in fact they have an obligation to.

To think that higher taxes coincides with more jobs is just plain lunacy.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:31 AM   #93
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Raising taxes is going to drive corporations further outside the US. All of the history that liberals used with 90% tax rates with prosperity was before globalization took off. The US isn't in control of what corporations do right now as they aren't locked up by physical boundaries anymore. Much like smaller domestic corporations fish around US states for the lowest tax rates and the best tax breaks before putting in a plant, the global corporations do this on a worldwide scale. If they can do something in another country cheaper than in the US due to taxes they will, and in fact they have an obligation to.

To think that higher taxes coincides with more jobs is just plain lunacy.
Ok, if it's such a direct relationship, it should be EASY to pass a law that encourages corporations not to do that. I don't know, something like a FAR HIGHER tax on all income from overseas, or a tariff on goods sold from overseas. Easy peasy.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:42 AM   #94
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It would benefit everyone, including you if employee's work making a wage that people could actually live on. Having working poor work their butts off and still have to have assistance to make ends meet does not do ANYONE any favors. It's counter to a healthy society. As long as this situation remains, we are holding our own country back.
I simply don't understand how conservatives don't get this. A thriving middle class makes everyone wealthier, even the uber rich.

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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
Maybe if more private companies weren't so willfully reckless and destructive all this government oversight you aren't a fan of wouldn't exist? I mean, which came first child labor, or laws against child labor? Polluting the environment or laws against polluting the environment? Knowingly selling poisoned food or laws against selling poisoned food? OSHA, the FDA, the EPA, etc., all exist because of the private sector's inability to police its own brass.
Again, so painfully obvious to anyone capable of independent thought. Regulations are in place because coporate America has proven time and time again that it will rape at near any opportunity that someone isn't looking.

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Originally Posted by 76ShovelHead View Post
What people don't understand is that if we don't loosen restrictions and lower taxes for the rich, they won't give us jobs!
Good God folks, don't even bother. Fox has found a new pitchman. All hail the job creators.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:09 AM   #95
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Ok, if it's such a direct relationship, it should be EASY to pass a law that encourages corporations not to do that. I don't know, something like a FAR HIGHER tax on all income from overseas, or a tariff on goods sold from overseas. Easy peasy.
We've already seen what happens when you try that, Corporations refuse to repatriate their funds.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:41 AM   #96
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We've already seen what happens when you try that, Corporations refuse to repatriate their funds.
Ok, again, it's easy. Corporations only exist by charter of the state. If a corporation is a bad actor, it should be "executed" and its assets forfeited to the State.

(edit) My point is not to advocate for some crazed takeover and dismantling of the corporate world, but to show that these aren't problems we can't solve. We just need to take action and stop listening to the BS arguments of those in control that it's too hard or too scary.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:56 AM   #97
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MOD NOTE: Thread closed temporarily. Take a breather, get some fresh air. Please avoid the kind of ad hominem attack that has been growing in this thread.

Several posts have already been removed, and we'd much rather not have to be more active in this thread. I will reopen later.

Thanks!

EDIT: open now. Keep it clean.

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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:21 PM   #98
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Raising taxes is going to drive corporations further outside the US. All of the history that liberals used with 90% tax rates with prosperity was before globalization took off. The US isn't in control of what corporations do right now as they aren't locked up by physical boundaries anymore. Much like smaller domestic corporations fish around US states for the lowest tax rates and the best tax breaks before putting in a plant, the global corporations do this on a worldwide scale. If they can do something in another country cheaper than in the US due to taxes they will, and in fact they have an obligation to.

To think that higher taxes coincides with more jobs is just plain lunacy.
Yeah, people say all that stuff.

Where are those businesses going to go?

What, are they going to move to China? Where the state spies on your business to help the state-sponsored rivals and people are executed every day? A place where you can't even trust your own employees? Or maybe they're going to go to Russia - where you can't even park your car without bribing someone?

It's a bluff. And people just fall for it under the pressure of "competing in a global market".

Companies in the West get an amazing deal - they have a solid and stable legal system, which gives them predictability in doing business. Governments in these countries are revoltingly pro-business, often to the detriment of their own citizens. They couldn't dream of a better place to be.

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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:35 PM   #99
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Any proof of this? You can't be taxed on income not earned.

http://ledgerlink.monster.com/traini...at-restaurants
Absolutely. in fact, the IRS now taxes you on the money you get back from your tax return. That is not earned income.

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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:49 PM   #100
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Absolutely. in fact, the IRS now taxes you on the money you get back from your tax return. That is not earned income.
Is this what you are talking about? Hasn't that always been the case?

If I claimed a deduction on my 2010 taxes, but got the money back in 2011 the money was earned in 2010, but taxed as 2011 income, when my taxes are filed in 2012.

If that's not what you are talking about please provide a link.

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