Microsoft Details Surface Pro Pricing Amidst Reports of Poor Sales of RT Version

mjtomlin · Nov 30, 2012

Arran said:
I might be wrong, but I thought iOS was built on OS X which, itself, is built on top of UNIX? Admittedly iOS prevents the end user from running primitive OS commands (no console) - although Apple might prefer to say they're protecting the user from the underlying OS.

Whatever, UNIX is pretty "full-blown", IMHO

Both OS X and iOS are built on top of Darwin (Apple's BSD-based operating system). They have the same process management, networking, file system, memory management (virtual memory is turned off in iOS), etc.

They both run Darwin system processes like, notifyd, launchd, syslogd, fseventsd, configd, mds, etc. in the background.

The major difference between them is their user interface and experience. OS X has always been an "open" system, that is to say all parts of the OS are accessible and configurable. The iOS interface and experience was designed to be simple and easy to use... it does not allow direct access to the OS.

But you are correct iOS does run on top a full-blown OS; Darwin

KanosWRX · Nov 30, 2012

Always said the only way the Surface will sell is if its less then the iPad, they need to make the RT version $299.00 or $399.00 with a keyboard.

And for the Surface Pro, its still over priced, needs to be $799.00 for the 64 GB version.

MS you better start reducing your prices or your product will fail, you can't compete with the number one competitor at the same price point, didn't you learn anything in your business classes???

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Tech198 said:
Ok... But just because yu can dock the MS Surface, suddenly makes it an Ultabook?

Then you must say the same about the iPad, as you can get a do a keyboard dock for ths as well... But the ipad is not an ultabook then because it doesn't run a full blown OS, while the Surface does.

4.5 hours is not bad..... Considering you NEVER need to use your desktop again.

This is how Apple actually started with battery life back in the day too. Start small, then ramp up.. Its a 1st gen

Give it time.

The iPad will never be considered an ultra book because its a closed OS that's not a full blown computer. Just look at iOS Safari and how bad it is. Plus processor wise the Surface Pro destroys the iPad. Hence the lower battery life. I would love to see an iPad play Doom 3 or Call of Duty or Civ 5. When that happens we can start talking battery life. Its apples to oranges for the most part besides looks, sure its a tablet, but its really a PC in tablet form.

mjtomlin · Nov 30, 2012

KanosWRX said:
The iPad ... not a full blown computer

I love when people say this... It reminds me of late 80's when Macs weren't considered computers - they were toys - because they didn't have a command line. LOL It was so conceptually different, most assumed that the OS was hidden under the graphics. The fact was, instead of letters to represent files, the Mac used icons. And in place of commands, the Mac used natural actions. This is what iOS is to traditional desktop computing.

I know it'll take time for some people to grasp - or maybe some people never will, changes and shifts are sometimes hard for people to accept.

Marcus-k · Nov 30, 2012

T-R-S said:
I tried out a surface in the San Francisco shopping mall last month.
NO LTE Option = Fail half the time I spend using a tablet I need a wireless - I am not going to pull out my phone and set up tethering to get it to work.
Plus it's made out of cheap plastic. Plus low battery life makes surface an epix fail IMO.
If you want to get people to buy your products - you need 2 things - has MUST be better and cost less....

Obviously you haven't used it at all. The Surface is made out of magnesium, not plastic, and how is 10 hours of battery life bad?

Liquorpuki · Nov 30, 2012

mjtomlin said:
I love when people say this... It reminds me of late 80's when Macs weren't considered computers - they were toys - because they didn't have a command line. LOL

I know it'll take time for some people to grasp - or maybe some people never will, changes and shifts are sometimes hard for people to accept.

Seems like nobody on this thread is allowed to point out that there are differences between mobile and PC devices unless they run it through you first

Renzatic · Nov 30, 2012

mjtomlin said:
I love when people say this... It reminds me of late 80's when Macs weren't considered computers - they were toys - because they didn't have a command line. LOL It was so conceptually different, most assumed that the OS was hidden under the graphics. The fact was, instead of letters to represent files, the Mac used icons. And in place of commands, the Mac used natural actions. This is what iOS is to traditional desktop computing.

I know it'll take time for some people to grasp - or maybe some people never will, changes and shifts are sometimes hard for people to accept.

It's not a full blown computer until I can do everything on it I can on a...wait for it...full blown computer.

Right now, the iPad is not a full blown computer.

mjtomlin · Nov 30, 2012

Liquorpuki said:
Seems like nobody on this thread is allowed to point out that there are differences between mobile and PC devices unless they run it through you first

So what? This is a discussion board. There's obviously a lot of people here that don't really understand what they're talking about - what's wrong with educating them rather than letting them live in delusional bliss?

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Renzatic said:
It's not a full blown computer until I can do everything on it I can on a...wait for it...full blown computer.

Right now, the iPad is not a full blown computer.

Yeah, I covered that. But feel free to keep repeating what has already been said.

Renzatic · Nov 30, 2012

mjtomlin said:
So what? This is a discussion board. There's obviously a lot of people here that don't really understand what they're talking about - what's wrong with educating them rather than letting them live in delusional bliss?

Who have you educated here? The only thing you've done is say something dumb, someone responds in kind, then you reword your argument and call someone stupid at the end.

The only thing I've learned from talking to you is you were probably beat up a lot in middle school.

mjtomlin · Nov 30, 2012

Renzatic said:
Who have you educated here? The only thing you've done is say something dumb, someone responds in kind, then you reword your argument and call someone stupid at the end.

The only thing I've learned from talking to you is you were probably beat up a lot in middle school.

LOL

Truth hurts.

Can't you block my posts?

Renzatic · Nov 30, 2012

You were beat up a lot in middle school?

Great. Now I kinda feel bad for making fun of you.

mjtomlin · Nov 30, 2012

Renzatic said:
You were beat up a lot in middle school?

Great. Now I kinda feel bad for making fun of you.

I do believe you were the one who said apps can't run in the background ... my post clearly showed they can, straight form Apple's developer page.

You didn't learn anything from that?

For iOS apps, it is crucial to know whether your app is running in the foreground or the background. Because system resources are more limited on iOS devices, an app must behave differently in the background than in the foreground. The operating system also limits what your app can do in the background in order to improve battery life and to improve the user’s experience with the foreground app. The operating system notifies your app whenever it moves between the foreground and background. These notifications are your chance to modify your app’s behavior.

tumtumtum · Nov 30, 2012

Renzatic said:
iOS doesn't preemptively multitask, it state saves and freezes to ram. In other words, if its in the background, it isn't running, it's waiting.

That's totally untrue. iOS is a preemptively multitasking OS. If your app plays music it can request that iOS allows it to continue running in the background. If you're a normal app you can ask iOS to allow you to continue running in the background for up to 10 minutes. The restrictions are purely about battery life not about whether it can do preemptive multitasking. iOS is a full pre-emptive multitasking operating system. Any restrictions on multitasking is purposeful. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

Jookbox · Nov 30, 2012

It's pretty sad to see how people here enjoy watching Microsoft fail. Enjoy the incremental ipad updates.

Renzatic · Nov 30, 2012

I dunno if I could call it true and proper multitasking in the oldschool sense because it's only designed to allow apps to perform a limited number of specific tasks while in the background. Any app that doesn't make any of these background calls is, in fact, save stated and frozen in ram.

Unless things have changed greatly between iOS4 and 6 on that front, they were limited to playing music, updating location data, and VoIP tasks. Both of you are probably right in the sense that it is built upon OSX, and it's probably relying on the methods it uses to manage threads for applications have been pushed out of focus, but I'm right because...

...it's not what I'd call true and proper multitasking. It's not multitasking in the same way OSX does. It's far more limited in comparison.

D-a-a-n · Nov 30, 2012

Wut no touch cover included, what are they thinking? Jesus christ...first all the ads on how everything 'clicks' bla bla bla and then you have to pay 100$ extra for an already expensive tablet? Come on Ballmer, just leave..

AppleScruff1 · Nov 30, 2012

D-a-a-n said:
Wut no touch cover included, what are they thinking? Jesus christ...first all the ads on how everything 'clicks' bla bla bla and then you have to pay 100$ extra for an already expensive tablet? Come on Ballmer, just leave..

Kinda like having to buy an adapter for every Apple product?

Chlloret · Nov 30, 2012

Renzatic said:
It's not a full blown computer until I can do everything on it I can on a...wait for it...full blown computer.

Right now, the iPad is not a full blown computer.

Hm, that goes every way. I love my iPad, because of the things I can do with it, the "full blown" computer can not even dream of. So I guess, the real computer is for every one a different story. The "real" computer was always restricted and when I see what people can do with the iPad, people that NEVER would dream of doing anything on a "real" computer, people in there 80s and 90s but also kids, 4 or 5 years old, it is mindboggeling.
You mess up the wrong file on a desktop, you are lost. Can't happen on a iPad. You like to do something, no matter what, you ask the app store and say what app you like. A minute later and you are using it.
Finding, buying, downloading, after the download finding, installing and then using a program on a pc (each step with its own menue, questions "are you sure" dialogue, next, next, I agree, next, next, please restart) Is such a daunting task for so many people, its unbelievable. But it seems, nobody seems to do any research into the usability of there apps/programs. On other plattforms every app seems to be different. Every Program is controlled in a different way.
Android got that problem, even if you make it thru the slightly confusing app store, there is no consisting interface, there seem to be no guidelines.
On the Surface (we only had the RT) the desktop is not only confusing but right out agressive with the ever changing tiles, it did not go down well at all with our test group. Infact, NOBODY liked it, a first. Not the "computer savy" people, not the computer newbies, no tablet users, no "silver surfers"
Not even the testers themselfes here where interested, we send our two test machines back, without the usual "take my money, great, wow" you get with some products.
The iPad however, is regarded by a lot of people as full computer or, as my mother (84) puts it, "nobody needs more computer"
It is a universal programable machine, a computer. As a consumer product, it is difficould to find something, it can not do. It gets many gadgets into one and is usable, basically without any prior knowlege. It easely covers 90%+ of all computer needs of the average user and the things it can not do (I'm sure somebody finds a special use no one would atemt on a tablet but point out that the iPad can not do it) will never be done on any tablet anyway.

AppleScruff1 · Nov 30, 2012

Chlloret said:
The iPad however, is regarded by a lot of people as full computer or, as my mother (84) puts it, "nobody needs more computer"

Huge numbers of people need more computer than the iPad offers.

dona83 · Nov 30, 2012

DaMike8 said:
900 dollars for a tablet? LOL what a joke.

$900 for something that's pretty much like a MacBook Air, plus a touchscreen, minus an included keyboard.

From what I'm hearing from a lot of people though who were interested in this product is that it's too expensive.

Renzatic · Nov 30, 2012

Chlloret said:
Hm, that goes every way. I love my iPad, because of the things I can do with it, the "full blown" computer can not even dream of. So I guess, the real computer is for every one a different story. The "real" computer was always restricted and when I see what people can do with the iPad, people that NEVER would dream of doing anything on a "real" computer, people in there 80s and 90s but also kids, 4 or 5 years old, it is mindboggeling.
You mess up the wrong file on a desktop, you are lost. Can't happen on a iPad. You like to do something, no matter what, you ask the app store and say what app you like. A minute later and you are using it.
Finding, buying, downloading, after the download finding, installing and then using a program on a pc (each step with its own menue, questions "are you sure" dialogue, next, next, I agree, next, next, please restart) Is such a daunting task for so many people, its unbelievable. But it seems, nobody seems to do any research into the usability of there apps/programs. On other plattforms every app seems to be different. Every Program is controlled in a different way.
Android got that problem, even if you make it thru the slightly confusing app store, there is no consisting interface, there seem to be no guidelines.
On the Surface (we only had the RT) the desktop is not only confusing but right out agressive with the ever changing tiles, it did not go down well at all with our test group. Infact, NOBODY liked it, a first. Not the "computer savy" people, not the computer newbies, no tablet users, no "silver surfers"
Not even the testers themselfes here where interested, we send our two test machines back, without the usual "take my money, great, wow" you get with some products.
The iPad however, is regarded by a lot of people as full computer or, as my mother (84) puts it, "nobody needs more computer"
It is a universal programable machine, a computer. As a consumer product, it is difficould to find something, it can not do. It gets many gadgets into one and is usable, basically without any prior knowlege. It easely covers 90%+ of all computer needs of the average user and the things it can not do (I'm sure somebody finds a special use no one would atemt on a tablet but point out that the iPad can not do it) will never be done on any tablet anyway.

I agree with most of what you're saying. I love my iPad, and I agree it's pretty close to being the perfect computer for the average consumer. I can think of a number of people who don't need any more than what it provides. It's brilliant in a lot of ways, and I applaud Apple for quite a few of the good ideas they've come up with.

Thing is, I'm not the average consumer. For me, the iPad is more a supplementary device than a stand alone computer in its own right. The way I try to use it also points out, to me anyway, the weak points of Apple's app centric approach to OS design. It can sometimes be incredibly difficult to send files where I want them because everything is siloed to hell and back. It makes for a more secure experience for the casual user, but for me, it adds a ton of unnecessary steps.

I'll basically put it like this...the day I can run multiple high end programs, send files between them without having to fight the OS, and switch between them as quickly and easily as I'm doing here is the day I'll consider the iPad a full blown computer. It's still got a ways to go before it reaches this point.

And it's not like its far out in the future. I'm doing all this on my little dual core Opteron DDR1 machine with 4GB ram (mostly because it's in the warm, comfy bedroom and not my freezing ass cold study). At the very least, I'd love to play with Photoshop on a tablet. It's the most natural place for it.

Moreso than the iPad, I love tablets. I want to be able to actually design stuff on a tablet one day. Right now, the Surface offers me a better chance of doing so, even if the UI isn't the best fit for a touch/stylus driven device. The iPad? It offers up apps, some of them quite good, but it's still a little weak on that front. At least for everything I'd want out of it.

Chlloret · Nov 30, 2012

AppleScruff1 said:
Huge numbers of people need more computer than the iPad offers.

No problem, there are numerous offers everywhere.
Still, iPad sales go up, year by year, outpacing the ( shrinking) pc market. It seems, that for more and more people it is enough of a computer.

I have private a 27" iMac, 3 years old, a MacBook, also 3 years old, a Windows7 mini Laptop (before they where called Ultrabooks, a SONY TT) and my iPad. First the original, now a two and all the other gadgets collect dust.
Granted, I do know about gadgets and computers and yes, I probably tickle a lot out of the pad, still, its what is used 99% of the time, 1% for remote access to a OSX system for a specific monitoring software.

So, if its enough, why invent situations that nobody in the target group ever encounters? As a specialist, nerd, Apple hater or Fandroid you will get something different and thats great, Surface however is catering to......well, nobody knows.

AppleScruff1 · Nov 30, 2012

Chlloret said:
No problem, there are numerous offers everywhere.
Still, iPad sales go up, year by year, outpacing the ( shrinking) pc market. It seems, that for more and more people it is enough of a computer.

I have private a 27" iMac, 3 years old, a MacBook, also 3 years old, a Windows7 mini Laptop (before they where called Ultrabooks, a SONY TT) and my iPad. First the original, now a two and all the other gadgets collect dust.
Granted, I do know about gadgets and computers and yes, I probably tickle a lot out of the pad, still, its what is used 99% of the time, 1% for remote access to a OSX system for a specific monitoring software.

So, if its enough, why invent situations that nobody in the target group ever encounters? As a specialist, nerd, Apple hater or Fandroid you will get something different and thats great, Surface however is catering to......well, nobody knows.

And who was the iPad catering to when it was first released? It created a market where none existed.

mjtomlin · Nov 30, 2012

Renzatic said:
...it's not what I'd call true and proper multitasking. It's not multitasking in the same way OSX does. It's far more limited in comparison.

Oh, so it's not what you'd call true and proper multitasking. Well now I'm understanding you a little better... Your knowledge of multitasking is fairly limited... You seem to think it only applies to the running of apps in the background and letting them do what ever they want?

Multi-tasking has nothing to do with what a system allows processes to do while in the background. True pre-emptive multi-tasking is the ability of the OS (kernel) to divide CPU cycles among running processes that need it. How is that need determined? It depends on what the system's purpose is.

The fact is, most operating systems with some kind of processing management can do the same thing as what's being done in iOS. In UNIX, any process can be 'halt'ed by the system or given lower priority so they play 'nice' and make sure they don't hog up system resources. So because this can be done in any UNIX would consider them to not be "true and proper multitasking" then?

While Apple limits Apps from running amuck in the background, it does not mean it is not a true multi-tasking system, regardless of what you believe that to be.

But, please continue to accept your beliefs as gospel and I'll stick with the facts - the way it actually works and what it really means to be a pre-emptive multi-tasking system.

Chlloret · Nov 30, 2012

AppleScruff1 said:
And who was the iPad catering to when it was first released? It created a market where none existed.

Well, some truth there. However, when the iPad came out, it was first of all quite a tech marvel for an unbelievable low price. And it was introduced as an "extention" to your pc/mac. As a matter of fact, you needed a pc/mac to activate it, to sync it, you needed the ominous iTunes. Well you had tons of restrictions for the iPad, basically to get rid of a Notebook or not having to get one in the first place. You could do things on the go with just a pound of gear, all day long, without the danger of messing things up and even the boss could use it.
Still, they managed dozens of millions in sales. There was no competition until 2 years later. And that messed it up. So, everyone is pitting promotional "Tablets" (Nook,Fire ect) as iPad competition, to no avail.
Today the iPad is independent of any other computers, you CAN sync, you do not have to. It is, in fact, a stand alone machine, a computer, touch operated but allows a keyboard.

Renzatic · Nov 30, 2012

I think it has more to do with a difference in definition here. You're going for the raw term, I'm referring to the way it handles applications. Yes, the OS can preemptively multitask. It's been able to since the days if iOS1, being basically a fork of OSX and all.

But the way it handles multiple applications isn't true and proper multitasking in the classic computer sense of the word. When I said it saves state and freezes it to ram, that's exactly what it does. It stores it away, rather than allowing it to run uninterrupted in the background (besides a few specialized tasks anyway).

So yes. iOS does preemptively multitask. No, it doesn't handle apps like most modern OSes.

Though truthfully, there isn't much of a reason for it to as of yet, since there's no apps I can think of that require being able to run in the background beyond those exempted few tasks.

Microsoft Details Surface Pro Pricing Amidst Reports of Poor Sales of RT Version

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