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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:16 PM   #376
Liquorpuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlloret View Post
Hm, that goes every way. I love my iPad, because of the things I can do with it, the "full blown" computer can not even dream of.
What specific things do you use your iPad for?

Reason why I want the Pro is because there are a ton of things my iPad can't do for me.

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Originally Posted by Chlloret View Post
So, if its enough, why invent situations that nobody in the target group ever encounters? As a specialist, nerd, Apple hater or Fandroid you will get something different and thats great, Surface however is catering to......well, nobody knows.
I believe Microsoft is trying to expand the tablet market to create a high end space. Just like Amazon did a year ago when they put out the Fire and created a budget submarket.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:24 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Awakener View Post
This. People keep asking "So how does it work?" but even the website isn't helpful.
Easy answer.... if the best feature was functionality, they would be advertising that.

Look at this video when Surface freezes on stage when introducing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSj8GUZDuac
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:26 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
I think it has more to do with a difference in definition here. You're going for the raw term, I'm referring to the way it handles applications. Yes, the OS can preemptively multitask. It's been able to since the days if iOS1, being basically a fork of OSX and all.

But the way it handles multiple applications isn't true and proper multitasking in the classic computer sense of the word. When I said it saves state and freezes it to ram, that's exactly what it does. It stores it away, rather than allowing it to run uninterrupted in the background (besides a few specialized tasks anyway).

So yes. iOS does preemptively multitask. No, it doesn't do it like most modern OSes.

Though truthfully, there isn't much of a reason for it to as of yet, since there's no apps I can think of that require being able to run in the background beyond those exempted few tasks.
There is only one definition of pre-emptive multi-tasking. You can't just make up your own definition! Maybe you have your own idea of what multi-tasking might be? Which is clearly the case here.

Look, if you want to call "allowing apps to run in the background without restrictions" true multitasking, that's what you're going to do, but you've just negated all operating systems from being "true multi-tasking" systems, as just about all of them place some kind of restrictions on background applications. Even in OS X you still have to tell the system what type of backgrounding your app is going to do or even if you need to run in the background - some processes are restricted from drawing to the screen while they're in the background. Some apps aren't allowed to background on the main thread, etc.


But yeah, I got beat up a lot in school, so I became a loner and got into computer programming.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:28 PM   #379
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Why do people keep comparing the Surface Pro to a MacBook Air? Why not compare it to a Samsung, Asus or Lenovo Ultrabook?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:30 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
I think it has more to do with a difference in definition here. You're going for the raw term, I'm referring to the way it handles applications. Yes, the OS can preemptively multitask. It's been able to since the days if iOS1, being basically a fork of OSX and all.

But the way it handles multiple applications isn't true and proper multitasking in the classic computer sense of the word. When I said it saves state and freezes it to ram, that's exactly what it does. It stores it away, rather than allowing it to run uninterrupted in the background (besides a few specialized tasks anyway).

So yes. iOS does preemptively multitask. No, it doesn't handle apps like most modern OSes.

Though truthfully, there isn't much of a reason for it to as of yet, since there's no apps I can think of that require being able to run in the background beyond those exempted few tasks.
Is there a dictionary where I can look up the 'classic computer sense' of words? Nobody cares about your definitions of 'true' multitasking or what constitutes a 'full-blown' computer because your definitions are arbitrary and self-serving.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:33 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by mjtomlin View Post
There is only one definition of pre-emptive multi-tasking. You can't just make up your own definition! Maybe you have your own idea of what multi-tasking might be? Which is clearly the case here.
I'm not. I'm pointing the dividing line at the apps. The OS is still handling other tasks preemptively, but the apps themselves are handled in a separate manner there from. There is no preemptive when it comes to iOS apps. They're empted entirely. Frozen, put to the side, and completely static.

Unless they're playing music or running GPS.

Man, this whole conversation is becoming really pointlessly academic.

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But yeah, I got beat up a lot in school, so I became a loner and got into computer programming.
Sorry, man. : \

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Originally Posted by Carouser View Post
because your definitions are arbitrary and self-serving.
Self-serving? What am I getting out of this?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:36 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquorpuki View Post
What specific things do you use your iPad for?

Reason why I want the Pro is because there are a ton of things my iPad can't do for me.

----------



I believe Microsoft is trying to expand the tablet market to create a high end space. Just like Amazon did a year ago when they put out the Fire and created a budget submarket.
Well, I know several people that got those cheap 7" tablets. The fire is out, because allthou based on Android, its not Android, same for the Nook. Most I see are those cheap china tablets, 7" 2-4h battery but $100 or less. Most get an iPad afterwards. You live and learn.

What I do with the iPad? Well, I travel a lot, so it is of course communications, phone, text, facetime, e-mail ect. I use it as TV, worldwide reception of my fav channels, Radio, Navigation in cars, newspapers, I upload to my blog (wordpress) upload pictures and videos, after they have been worked on, also on the iPad. I play roulette, I have to review and correct documents the office sends (word, excel) I have a little quadcopter I love and fly controlled by the iPad (including live video feed) Flipboard, control of our cameras around the world, remote access to my home system (OSX) over a nifty AR app I can find worlwide the satellites to get the internet going and get the flyaway orientated, with my wife we went on extensive geocashing trips, translating strange lingo, oh, yes, surfing on the internet and reading things in forums.
Those are basics. There is more, we also have a few custom apps (not on the App Store) special for my company, but basically that covers most of it.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:40 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Self-serving? What am I getting out of this?
"Self-serving" means you've defined those terms in way that supports your argument, and then flail your hands about how you're just using the 'old school' or 'classic' definition or whatever other weasel word you use to legitimize your selective definition. The argument only turned 'academic' because people didn't let you run your opinion roughshod all over the forums and clap you on the back for it.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:40 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
Why do people keep comparing the Surface Pro to a MacBook Air? Why not compare it to a Samsung, Asus or Lenovo Ultrabook?
This is supposed to be a Mac-centric site. Besides, they basically have the same specs, price. Actually, I keep wondering why people aren't comparing it to other Windows tablets?

I don't really think it matters. Windows tablets will remain a niche market, just as they've always been, with or without the Surface. Sure some people are going to find them useful and may even be productive on them, but to most people it will remain a gimmick - a step backwards (10 years) in tablet computing.

You can put lipstick on a pig but you wouldn't want to make out with it, would you? That's all Windows 8 is. An archaic OS dressed in drag for a somewhat new form factor.

But more power to them if it works this time. Microsoft has never been a company to give up so quickly. Hell, they lost billions on the Xbox, but kept it going all these years. What other company is capable of (or willing to do) that?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:42 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
I'm not. I'm pointing the dividing line at the apps. The OS is still handling other tasks preemptively, but the apps themselves are handled in a separate manner there from. There is no preemptive when it comes to iOS apps. They're empted entirely. Frozen, put to the side, and completely static.

Unless they're playing music or running GPS.
Just thought I'd point out that Android multitasking works in a similar manner to iOS. Apps get frozen unless the app requests to run in the background. the difference is that on iOS they are limited to certain API's.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:58 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
It's not really a tablet in the same sense as an iPad. I'm excited about it because being able to run Photoshop at 1920x1080 on a portable, light netbook/tablet with a touchscreen digitizer is pretty damn awesome to me.

That's who the Surface Pro is aimed at. It's not a device designed around light work and entertainment. It's a fairly heavy duty machine for the size.
Do you think you would find doing professional work on a 10-11" screen, with that style of keyboard/ mouse set-up comfortable?

I'm not a professional photographer, but I do use photoshop for web graphics on my site. I know I would feel very constrained on such a small device.

Can anyone comment on how those keyboards feel? Are they rubbery/plastic/?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 07:59 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
Didn't you just contradict yourself?
How so?

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Besides Apple has brought some overlapping design features between the two
That's not the same as trying to marry the two together in one deviceónot even close. OS X remains a pointing device platform (the Magic Trackpad might well be magical, but it's still fundamentally a pointing device), while iOS remains a touchscreen platform.

We've been enduring these predictions of Apple merging the two together for some years now. Many people talk like it's a guaranteed thing. Why? Because the Mac now has Dashboard? Please.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:04 PM   #388
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I know this an apple site. But people are looking at this product the wrong way..well alot are but not all.

I dont think this should be called Surface Pro, if it is then they should of called the RT windows tablet or somthing. They are shouldnt be compared as a RT vs PRO. That is truly like comparing an Ipad4th gen "with somekind of keybaord" vs a macbook. While the surfaces may look the same the performances and what they can run isnt in the same ball-park.

I bet you that there will be some kind of dock that will hook up the PRO to a monitor/keyboard/mouse..and would be one heck of a PC. Then take it to go as a tablet.

Those are just my thoughts on the two, very bad marketing.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:21 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Right now, the iPad is not a full blown computer.
The iPad has always been a full blown computer. So has the iPhone. Oh and the iPod before that. And even the MP3 players that predate the iPod. My car's ECU is also a full blown computer.

A computer is considered "full blown" as long as it respects the definition of a computer : A device that can take input, process it according to some program, and produce output, while also providing storage.

The iPad does all of this. So does my car's ECU, or my old iRiver MP3 player.

Should we go into Alan Turing's computability theories ? Or is the simple fact that "Computer" is a pretty generic term enough for you ?

Stop harassing the guy that says the iPad is a full blown computer. It's as much a computer as a Mac or as my Integrity boxes or as an old SGI Octane or even as that NES system in your closet.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquorpuki View Post
I believe Microsoft is trying to expand the tablet market to create a high end space. Just like Amazon did a year ago when they put out the Fire and created a budget submarket.
I think this "high end" tablet market existed way before today. The Surface Pro ? It's simply the Windows 8 version of the old Tablet PCs you had back in the days running Windows XP Tablet Edition.

Microsoft isn't doing anything new or novel here, nor are they expanding anything.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:41 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Eric5h5 View Post
No, because that wasn't a bail-out, it was a cross-licensing agreement. Apple had $1.2 billion in cash at that point and were in no immediate danger of going under (though they probably would have eventually if they'd continued on the path they were on at that time).
Yes, the 150 million was under the guise of a cross-licensing agreement but the rest of this absolute rubbish. Got a source that they weren't near to going under?
By pretty much all accounts (even from Jobs himself) Apple was at most a couple of months away from going bankrupt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrS7JQv-zgY

Around the 1:23 second mark.
Quote:
Well Apple was about 90 days away from going bankrupt back then
Steve Jobs.

Last edited by SlCKB0Y; Nov 30, 2012 at 09:10 PM.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:43 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
The iPad has always been a full blown computer. So has the iPhone. Oh and the iPod before that. And even the MP3 players that predate the iPod. My car's ECU is also a full blown computer.

A computer is considered "full blown" as long as it respects the definition of a computer : A device that can take input, process it according to some program, and produce output, while also providing storage.

The iPad does all of this. So does my car's ECU, or my old iRiver MP3 player.

Should we go into Alan Turing's computability theories ? Or is the simple fact that "Computer" is a pretty generic term enough for you ?

Stop harassing the guy that says the iPad is a full blown computer. It's as much a computer as a Mac or as my Integrity boxes or as an old SGI Octane or even as that NES system in your closet.

----------



I think this "high end" tablet market existed way before today. The Surface Pro ? It's simply the Windows 8 version of the old Tablet PCs you had back in the days running Windows XP Tablet Edition.

Microsoft isn't doing anything new or novel here, nor are they expanding
anything.

Thank you. My tv is a full blown computer and I agree I had origami tablets when they first game out. Not a lot of difference.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:51 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by inhalexhale1 View Post
Do you think you would find doing professional work on a 10-11" screen, with that style of keyboard/ mouse set-up comfortable?

I'm not a professional photographer, but I do use photoshop for web graphics on my site. I know I would feel very constrained on such a small device.
Truthfully, the UI elements would probably be a little difficult to see on a screen that small. The most exciting thing about it is the potential moreso than anything. A well designed, (relatively) light tablet PC with a pressure sensitive onscreen digitizer is a hard thing for me to resist.

It's what I've wanted since I first heard mention of tablets, and the iPad has only fed my burning lust for the idea. I'm probably going to set out the first rev of Pros, but it's definitely piqued my interest to the point I'm going to keep a close eye on it.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:51 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
Yes, the 150 million was under the guise of a cross-licensing agreement but the rest of this absolute rubbish. Got a source that they weren't near to going under?
By pretty much all accounts (I believe even from Jobs himself) Apple was at most two months from bankruptcy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Microsoft_deal

Quote:
The day before the announcement Apple had a market cap of $2.46 billion,[40] and had ended its previous quarter with quarterly revenues of US$1.7 billion and cash reserves of US$1.2 billion,[41] making the US$150 million dollar amount of the investment largely symbolic. Apple CFO Fred Anderson stated that Apple would use the additional funds to invest in its core markets of education and creative content.
http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-202143.html

Quote:
Apple, which ended its third quarter with $1.2 billion in cash, will use the additional $150 million to invest in its core markets of education and creative content, Anderson said. He added that the company expects to gain a higher percentage of its revenues from software and services in these core markets in the future.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 08:59 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
Snip
I guess saying the OS is a little too limited and restricted for my tastes would've been a better way to put it, considering I've claimed I consider the iPad to be a proper PC in the previous discussions.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:06 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
I think this "high end" tablet market existed way before today. The Surface Pro ? It's simply the Windows 8 version of the old Tablet PCs you had back in the days running Windows XP Tablet Edition.

Microsoft isn't doing anything new or novel here, nor are they expanding anything.
I owned a P1510 tablet PC. Resistive touchscreen, convertable laptop form factor, useless for anything other than handwriting recognition and drawing directly into MS Office with a stylus at high latency. The Pro doesn't have anything in common with old Windows tablets other than they both run some version of Windows. If it was the same, I wouldn't want one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlloret View Post
Well, I know several people that got those cheap 7" tablets. The fire is out, because allthou based on Android, its not Android, same for the Nook. Most I see are those cheap china tablets, 7" 2-4h battery but $100 or less. Most get an iPad afterwards. You live and learn.
The budget submarket for tablets is about 15 million units - it's something like 8 million Fires, the rest Nooks and Nexuses. I don't know how many people switch to iPads but that submarket is pretty sizable

Quote:
What I do with the iPad? Well, I travel a lot, so it is of course communications, phone, text, facetime, e-mail ect. I use it as TV, worldwide reception of my fav channels, Radio, Navigation in cars, newspapers, I upload to my blog (wordpress) upload pictures and videos, after they have been worked on, also on the iPad. I play roulette, I have to review and correct documents the office sends (word, excel) I have a little quadcopter I love and fly controlled by the iPad (including live video feed) Flipboard, control of our cameras around the world, remote access to my home system (OSX) over a nifty AR app I can find worlwide the satellites to get the internet going and get the flyaway orientated, with my wife we went on extensive geocashing trips, translating strange lingo, oh, yes, surfing on the internet and reading things in forums.
Those are basics. There is more, we also have a few custom apps (not on the App Store) special for my company, but basically that covers most of it.
It sounds like a good fit for you.

I'm an engineer and I want to be able to use a tablet to do Word, Excel, and Access at a level I can't do on an iPad without jumping through hoops, if at all. I do CAD work on Microstation and the iPad has nothing I can use to import or view these files unless I want to use PDF converters. I program devices out in the field and on a Pro I'd be able to install proprietary vendor software, do settings, stick an interface in the USB port, and flash the device directly from the tablet. I actually got a bunch of uses in mind for it, work and non-work related. These are all things I hoped the iPad would eventually be able to do when I bought one back in 2010 but the apps to do these things never materialized.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:11 PM   #396
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Guess Steve Jobs was wrong then? Check my edit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrS7JQv-zgY

Just as another point, nothing you quoted supports that they weren't in trouble. Revenue and cash reserves are meaningless without also posting their operating expenses and liabilities.

Also, do you really think the CFO of a company which is in trouble isn't going to try and put some spin on it?

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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:15 PM   #397
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:17 PM   #398
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iOS doesn't preemptively multitask, it state saves and freezes to ram. In other words, if its in the background, it isn't running, it's waiting.
Then why can I listen to the music player while typing this post???
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:26 PM   #399
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Then why can I listen to the music player while typing this post???
Read through the rest of the arguments, that's one of the things iOS allows apps to process while running in the background. Music, GPS, and VoIP.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:33 PM   #400
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And the 11" MBA is basically an overpriced netbook. See how that works?
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Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
You're absolutely correct about the current 11"MBA. It is far from a netbook. I posted that due to the first version of the 11" MBA being called an overpriced netbook by many here a year or so ago.
Can you see how your use of "is" caused the confusion? You're using present tense to reference the past.

Regardless of that, the MBA has had core i5/i7 for the past 18 months, and prior to that, core 2 duo. Even Core 2 duo absolutely destroyed any Atom on the market at that time.
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