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Old Nov 30, 2012, 09:47 PM   #401
SlCKB0Y
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquorpuki View Post
Apple didn't put out a tablet with a desktop OS. So they didn't try.
Wait, don't you mean a laptop with a tablet OS? Wait...
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:04 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
10.8? Utter failure, and utter crap.
I have zero problems with 10.8. I personally think it is great.

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Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Ding ding ding. Same specs as MBA, but thinner and lighter
Is it still thinner and lighter once you attach the keyboard?

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
In the case of the surface pro, some people will want real hardware, running real programs, doing REAL work, on a REAL OPERATING SYSTEM.
I'd be really interested for you to provide some details as to what you consider a real OS to be.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:21 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
So, you are saying that iOS - castrated version of BSD - is better than BSD (a desktop OS). Something is perverted here.
BSD was never, ever primarily a desktop OS. It was a CLI server OS.

Besides, what do you mean by "better"? They serve completely different functions.

Last edited by SlCKB0Y; Nov 30, 2012 at 10:49 PM.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:36 PM   #404
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wow, someone really called it a plastic piece of crap? I will give MS lots of kudos for the build quality of the Surface RT I played with, it felt great, dare I say better than an iPad? think so

I'll have to reserve judgment on the actual performance of Surface RT as I didn't play around with it for too long, first impression it was fine, the browser is actually quite snappy
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:38 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
Wait, don't you mean a laptop with a tablet OS? Wait...
I don't know. What are we talking about now?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:39 PM   #406
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oh yeah and Surface Pro is definitely closer to a MacBook Air, I'd have to question your deduction skills if you compare it to an iPad

could be a handy little machine
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:41 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
Tell that to the 650,000,000 people using Windows 7. And throw in that many again for XP and Vista.
This is completely false. Vista never sold that many copies.

Your statement also incorrectly implies that everyone who bought XP and Vista are still using those versions and have not upgraded to later versions.

Another logical problem with your statement is that it implies 1 user = 1 license. Between work and home I probably have 5 just for Windows 7.

Please feel free to post a source indicating 650,000,000 current Vista users. Hell, feel free to post a source showing that MS even moved anywhere near that amount of Vista licenses because it seems (correct me i'm wrong) that you are equating total Windows licenses sold for the product lifetime to current user base.

Last edited by SlCKB0Y; Nov 30, 2012 at 10:48 PM.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:03 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by Mr. Gates View Post
Install a torrent client on your iPad, I dare you. Or any other Mac program.

You can't do it, I'll tell you why because everyone is confused :That's a big iPod touch !

This is a full OS WITH ...( W I T H ) touch
That's easy. I use my ipad as a handheld display for my Mac mini and I run torrent clients and whatever else a computer runs, from my couch on my ipad and a trackpad. I run windows on my ipad as well, using the same method. It works beautifully, I recommend you try it.

Don't they say "there's an app for that" ? It's called Air Display.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:05 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by throAU View Post
Lol. torrents on a tablet.

Yeah sure, i'd love to run peer to peer software on my battery powered device with a mobile data plan and minimal local storage
I regularly use torrents on my Android tablet. I do my torrenting on this new invention called WiFi and it does so in the background whilst the biggest battery drain by far (the screen) is turned off.

Also, presumably if I am getting something on my tablet by torrent, then I want it on my tablet. Your storage comment is not thought through at all. The torrents just save me from having to involve my laptop.

It's incredibly powerful if i'm travelling with just my tablet and I can use free WiFi where I am staying.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:13 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
This is completely false. Vista never sold that many copies.

Your statement also incorrectly implies that everyone who bought XP and Vista are still using those versions and have not upgraded to later versions.

Another logical problem with your statement is that it implies 1 user = 1 license. Between work and home I probably have 5 just for Windows 7.

Please feel free to post a source indicating 650,000,000 current Vista users. Hell, feel free to post a source showing that MS even moved anywhere near that amount of Vista licenses because it seems (correct me i'm wrong) that you are equating total Windows licenses sold for the product lifetime to current user base.
XP and Vista combined, not each. XP was about 450 million and Vista was 200 million. Regardless of who upgraded and who didn't, Windows runs on over 1 billion computers worldwide. Fact.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:28 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by wovel View Post
If they weren't completely dominating the console gaming market I would be really concerned.
I hate to burst your bubble but they aren't even doing this:

Wii is just under 100 million units
Playstation 3 is about 70 million units
Xbox 360 is about 70 million units.

They are strong in the console market but they definitely aren't dominating.

Also, their profits from the console sector barely makes a blip on Microsofts totals, its all about Windows and Windows software and services. If their gaming business was the only reason you weren't concerned then you should be concerned.

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Originally Posted by AppleScruff1 View Post
Windows runs on over 1 billion computers worldwide. Fact.
This doesn't surprise me. Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant...my point about Windows installs not equaling users is still accurate though.

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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
[SIZE="5"]
OH, they better drop price fast or they miss the Christmas season!
Dropping the price right after release would be a PR disaster.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:42 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
Hell, the 'iOS is only for content consumption' argument died a fiery death way back in May 2009 or so when the cover of a New Yorker magazine was created on the iPhone. How people have managed to keep that claim on life-support since then, despite a rash of counter-examples is beyond me.
Some examples of iPad art:
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/02/...s-of-ipad-art/

http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/beautif...de-resistance/

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VenusianSky View Post
I don't know why people think that Steve Ballmer single-handedly runs Microsoft. That is just foolish.[COLOR="#808080"]
A CEO doesn't single-handedly run a company but the reverse is true. A bad CEO can single-handedly ruin a company.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:58 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by DeathChill View Post
the difference is that on iOS they are limited to certain API's.
You've done a good job of minimising the differences in multitasking, but this ends up being a massive difference when actually implemented.

The difference between what a backgrounded Android app can do and what an iOS app can do are night and day.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:08 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by robanga View Post

What exactly is a full blown OS?
Simple. It's an OS that Win geeks have their lips permanently attached to. "Fully..."
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:10 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Great. Now I kinda feel bad for making fun of you.
Why were you making fun of him? He was 100% right when talking about the specifics of the OS functionality.

In fact pretty much anyone who is involved in or has studied computer science would agree with him.

From a technical standpoint, OS X and Android are both "proper" operating systems. Any limitations which you might perceive are a result of the user interface and the application level stuff. Neither of those things are OS.

Plenty of people with opinions like yours have been asked to define what they consider a "real" or "proper" OS and it hasn't been done yet. What we've seen is people use a circular argument and define a "real" OS as not iOS.

So, what is your definition of a "real" OS? What technical features or characteristics do you require for a "real" OS? If you can't define what a "real" OS is from a technical standpoint, how do you possess the knowledge to make the distinction of iOS not being a "real" OS?

Last edited by SlCKB0Y; Dec 1, 2012 at 12:15 AM.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:18 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
Yes, the 150 million was under the guise of a cross-licensing agreement but the rest of this absolute rubbish. Got a source that they weren't near to going under?
By pretty much all accounts (even from Jobs himself) Apple was at most a couple of months away from going bankrupt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrS7JQv-zgY

Around the 1:23 second mark.
And you really think $150m saved a multi-billion dollar company? Lack of understanding and perspective.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:29 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
but I'm right because...

...it's not what I'd call true and proper multitasking
. It's not multitasking in the same way OSX does. It's far more limited in comparison.
So you define what "true and proper multitasking" actually is, and then (surprise surprise) iOS doesn't match YOUR definition therefore making you justified?

Are you serious?

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Originally Posted by JAT View Post
And you really think $150m saved a multi-billion dollar company? Lack of understanding and perspective.
Where did I say that? Where did I make any comment as to what that 150M did? I simply said that the poster was wrong when stating Apple was in no immediate danger. They were in immediate danger.

Let me help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

Quote:
A strawman...is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
But I'll play along...What if that $150M allowed them to NOT default on a payment to an essential supplier or creditor. How does having a 2-3 billion dollar market cap in anyway reflect how a 150M investment would affect day to day operations without knowing what the circumstances were at the time?

What if that investment (and Microsofts assurances of 5 years of Office and Internet Explorer) sured up the stock price and investor confidence?

Neither you nor I can possibly know to what degree Microsofts involvement (hint, it wasnt just cash) helped Apple save itself from Bankruptcy.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:44 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by JAT View Post
Simple. It's an OS that Win geeks have their lips permanently attached to. "Fully..."
Oh....so an OS that does real work?

Go play your Angry birds and watch youtube.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:53 AM   #419
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Oh....so an OS that does real work?
Again, not a definition of an OS. Also, what is "real" work? Is it as indefinable for you as a "real" OS?
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 12:56 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
I have zero problems with 10.8. I personally think it is great.[COLOR="#808080"]
I could write a thread on it, its gimmicky, its garbage, and full of useless crap I don't want.

Though, it is STILL better than 10.7, what a waste of my drive space that was.

Quote:
Is it still thinner and lighter once you attach the keyboard?
I am not sure, but my type cover on my Surface RT weighs next to nothing.

Quote:
I'd be really interested for you to provide some details as to what you consider a real OS to be.
Alright, just to be clear. I don't give a crap about some stupid dictionary definition of what " multi tasking " is, I don't care whats going on behind the scenes.

A REAL operating system to me ( And yes, I have owned iPhone before, and used them for years, so I know how they operating. I have used iPads, my GF was stupid enough to waste her hard earned money on one, when she could have just got a laptop ).

1: User end Multitasking, I want to be able to display more than one program on the the screen at the same time, I can't do this in iOS, sure I can play Music, and do something else at the same time, but that's not really multi tasking the way I see it, why can't I put a video into a small window and write a document at the same time? iOS cannot do this.
2: I want the ability to install any software I want, from whoever I want, whenever I want. iOS cannot do this, your limited to the App Store, your limited to what Apple says you can and cannot buy, I don't like that. ( Don't get me wrong, not a fan of it in Windows RT either, which is why I'll be buying the Pro as soon as it comes out, but I wanted to try out the surface, and 500 bucks isn't really an object for me )
3: I want mouse support, iOS is nice for touch, but without mouse support, its pretty useless for anything worthwile.
4: I want compatibility with standards, like office. Something which the iOS does not have on any decent level, sure some word processors you can get are compatible with word files, but most of them are garbage.
5: Filing system, I want to be able to access my own damn filing system. Fail on iOS's part.
6: I want to be able to make any kind of user end changes to the OS, I want to be able to select my default programs for actions, I can't do this in iOS, like Maps, I upgraded my 4S Work phone to iOS6, sure I could download a different maps application, But I can't set it to defult, then I'll be stuck with the terrible Apple maps, as I am stuck with sub par safari ( I prefer Opera )

These are just a couple of things, I could go on and on. But to me iOS is nothing more than a Phone OS. Half assed on anything that isn't a phone, Windows RT isn't all that much better if I am honest.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
Again, not a definition of an OS. Also, what is "real" work? Is it as indefinable for you as a "real" OS?
See my new post, if your happy with a Phone OS that can't do real work, then more power to you.

And at least for ME, iOS cannot do real work. Neither can the hardware it comes on, ****. A surface pro is still gonna choke on what I do to make money, but it beats my 11 pound laptop lol.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 01:10 AM   #421
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A REAL operating system to me...

1: User end Multitasking, I want to be able to display more than one program on the the screen at the same time, I can't do this in iOS, sure I can play Music, and do something else at the same time, but that's not really multi tasking the way I see it, why can't I put a video into a small window and write a document at the same time? iOS cannot do this.
2: I want the ability to install any software I want, from whoever I want, whenever I want. iOS cannot do this, your limited to the App Store, your limited to what Apple says you can and cannot buy, I don't like that. ( Don't get me wrong, not a fan of it in Windows RT either, which is why I'll be buying the Pro as soon as it comes out, but I wanted to try out the surface, and 500 bucks isn't really an object for me )
3: I want mouse support, iOS is nice for touch, but without mouse support, its pretty useless for anything worthwile.
4: I want compatibility with standards, like office. Something which the iOS does not have on any decent level, sure some word processors you can get are compatible with word files, but most of them are garbage.
5: Filing system, I want to be able to access my own damn filing system. Fail on iOS's part.
6: I want to be able to make any kind of user end changes to the OS, I want to be able to select my default programs for actions, I can't do this in iOS, like Maps, I upgraded my 4S Work phone to iOS6, sure I could download a different maps application, But I can't set it to defult, then I'll be stuck with the terrible Apple maps, as I am stuck with sub par safari ( I prefer Opera )
G51989, I was trying to make a point here. Based on this list of yours above, command line/server Linux (on which most of the internet runs) is not a "real" OS.

Conversely, Android can do everything on your list except it only has third party MS Office compatibility. Do you consider Android a "real" OS?
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 01:20 AM   #422
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G51989, I was trying to make a point here. Based on this list of yours above, command line/server Linux (on which most of the internet runs) is not a "real" OS.
I said, for ME. Not for someone else, not for servers, not for giant oversized iPhones, for me. Your taking it completely out of context, I told you what I want in an OS, and what I feel is " Real OS " for my use. Not someone elses, if someones needs are so simple that they can get along with iOS fine, good for them.

Quote:
Conversely, Android can do everything on your list except it only has third party MS Office compatibility. Do you consider Android a "real" OS?
Via my defitnioan of what I feel a " real OS ", yes. Because I'm not locked into some ****** Walled Garden Ecosystem, I can do what I want with Android, I cannot with iOS, no modifications of any kind.

The point I am trying to make, is iOS as capable as a Windows, Linux, OSX, BSD, Unix, whatever the hell you want it to be. No, no its not. Its in my opinion a very content consumption based operating system, and for me. That's useless, at least for me.

The problem with iOS for me, is that don't get me wrong, its made Apple a ton of money, and I think for someone playing Angry birds and watching youtube, its great.

However, I've owned the iPhone 3G, and the 3GS, my employer ( would be ironic if you knew who it was ), gave me a 4S for work, got a deal or something, I've used my GF's iPad 2.

And it almost seems like the App Store is 99.9% Flashlight and crappy games Apps, and .1% of stuff that is actually useful.

Last edited by G51989; Dec 1, 2012 at 01:39 AM.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 01:30 AM   #423
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Yes the battery life is quite mediocre. Aside from that, why all the hate? Its a ultra book with a detachable keyboard that has the option of functioning as a tablet while running a fully featured native OS. It is like if the mac book air's screen could be detached from the keyboard while still running native OSX and utilizing a touch screen interface.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 01:44 AM   #424
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Yes the battery life is quite mediocre. Aside from that, why all the hate? Its a ultra book with a detachable keyboard that has the option of functioning as a tablet while running a fully featured native OS. It is like if the mac book air's screen could be detached from the keyboard while still running native OSX and utilizing a touch screen interface.
Because it just shows the amazing stubbornness of Microsoft while they should be moving things forward.

Look at this thing
Thumb resize.

and this



Both were "fully featured" tablets with full Windows that were released in the recent years with a stylus and a good processor in a relatively compact package - in fact the Samsung was nearly identical to the Surface Pro in its size and weight I believe. However they all failed.

The argument this time was that because Windows 8 is touch optimized, it'd actually succeed. However they still haven't addressed the fact that the vast majority of the applications that require "full" Windows 8 do not run well with touch input.

All the arguments I've seen in this thread for Surface basically argues that this comes with a "full" OS. OK but why would you buy this over other Windows 8 laptops when they are so much better as a laptop? Other Windows laptops have much better ergonomics because they don't have to deal with the odd weight distribution and doesn't require a flat surface for that kickstand.

As a stand alone tablet? It will probably last less than 5 hours, heavier than iPad, has less resolution than iPad, and is awkward to hold due to a 11.6" wide screen monitor. All in all, a very uncomfortable tablet and one without many touch optimized apps.

Of course there are a niche group of people who want to use Windows with touch input or stylus for whatever reason, such as artists. However I'd suspect they'd probably use the more sensitive Intuos rather than the stylus that comes with these tablet and the stand alone tablets such as Intuos are more comfortable in some ways - many designers I've talked to actually do not like Cintiq even without the big price tag because of the working angle. More importantly I doubt there are that many artists to make it a big seller.

So at this end, I just don't see what's so appealing about the Surface Pro in comparison to other failed tablet PCs with "full" Windows. These have always been bad tablets and mediocre laptops. What exactly does Surface Pro offer over that Samsung Slate PC?

Last edited by fertilized-egg; Dec 1, 2012 at 01:49 AM.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 04:02 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Read through the rest of the arguments, that's one of the things iOS allows apps to process while running in the background. Music, GPS, and VoIP.
Are you really arguing this point still and not exactly knowing what you're talking about?

There are three main types of background processing in iOS

#1 Finite time
#2 Notifications
#3 Long term processing

#1 You can do ANYTHING within a certain amount of time in the background... finish a download, finish a sort, finish an encryption... WHATEVER. But there is a limited amount of time you need to this before the system says, "You're done." and kills you.

#2 This is an indefinite amount of time that allows any app to monitor for any kind of updates and notify the system/user.

#3 This is what you're talking about... From Apple's developer page...

Quote:
audio—The app plays audible content to the user while in the background. (This content includes streaming audio or video content using AirPlay.)
location—The app keeps users informed of their location, even while it is running in the background.
voip—The app provides the ability for the user to make phone calls using an Internet connection.
newsstand-content—The app is a Newsstand app that downloads and processes magazine or newspaper content in the background.
external-accessory—The app works with a hardware accessory that needs to deliver updates on a regular schedule through the External Accessory framework.
bluetooth-central—The app works with a Bluetooth accessory that needs to deliver updates on a regular schedule through the Core Bluetooth framework.
bluetooth-peripheral—The app supports Bluetooth communication in peripheral mode through the Core Bluetooth framework.
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