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imurdaddy

macrumors member
Nov 6, 2012
42
0
Yes, a headache to corporations such as Apple. The economic meltdown in which the US is right now its caused because there's little regulation over what corporations can do, and that includes how they treat and pay their workers without whom they couldn't even survive.

On the contrary...it is in fact over regulation that has crippled manufacturing in many US companies...These companies, including small businesses ( which are essentially the engine of growth in the US ) are paralyzed by the lack of direction and bureaucracy of the current administration.
 

Codyak

macrumors 6502
Apr 6, 2012
370
127
DC
Hmm, only a few pages in and already politics? I guess that's not to bad all things considered. :D
 

guzhogi

macrumors 68040
Aug 31, 2003
3,725
1,804
Wherever my feet take me…
Yes, a headache to corporations such as Apple. The economic meltdown in which the US is right now its caused because there's little regulation over what corporations can do, and that includes how they treat and pay their workers without whom they couldn't even survive.

On the contrary...it is in fact over regulation that has crippled manufacturing in many US companies...These companies, including small businesses ( which are essentially the engine of growth in the US ) are paralyzed by the lack of direction and bureaucracy of the current administration.

True. We would really only need unions again if the Republicans were to control the government for a couple of decades.

I agree there are some regulations that are too burdensome. However, I do believe we need some regulations, implemented correctly. Many of those whackadoodle, super right-wing Republicans say can act responsibly, but I don't trust them. Too many people & corporations seem to only care about maximizing profits (especially short term) at the cost of safety, quality and employee morale. As good & important as profits are, they aren't the end-all, be-all of business, IMO. I would like a future where people & corporations don't base success solely on profits/material wealth, but also on how many employees a company has, how much they're paid, and how much much they like working there.

As for unions, they have good & bad qualities. Just like pretty much everything else, it's not really the idea, but the implementation that's bad. Just because the union at least partially helped cause the closing of Hostess, that doesn't mean all unions are bad, nor does it mean it's only the union's fault when a company fails. I know, it would be easier to understand if it was, but that doesn't necessarily mean better. My feeling is (I admit, I don't have all the details), both the employees & employers should have made sacrifices when facing bankruptcy.

Many of these posts have said something along the lines of "If you don't like your job, leave & find another job. It's a free country." While I agree with the fact that they could leave, it's not necessarily that easy to just find another job that pays well enough & has good enough working conditions. Or even a job period.
 

SubZer0

macrumors member
Feb 8, 2008
48
0
Anchorage, AK
Unions were needed in the days of child labor and 14 hour work days in dangerous factories with no fire exits. Now? Not so much.

Any idea what fostered the notion of worker's rights? Let's just say, it's not the company you work for. They will try to squeeze the worker for all their worth in the name of a better bottom line.

So, while you may not like unions, they do have a place. No system is perfect and there are individuals that take advantage of the protections put in place by any set of constraints. But that is true in all settings. There will always be an example of someone cheating the system.

Perhaps you would like to work for the company store? My guess is "Not so much"
 

JoEw

macrumors 68000
Nov 29, 2009
1,583
1,291
America was founded on the concepts of freedom and liberty. America is the defender of "The Free Market".

It makes no sense to have unions in America. Let's assume your employer is not violating your human rights and civil rights (you would have sued them if they were). If you don't like your job, you have the freedom to quit, you have the freedom to move to another place to search for a better job. It's a free market. At least, it was supposed to be!!

Stop pretending that unions exist only for the benefit of the workers. There is corruption and theft inside unions just like in small governments.

I think you misunderstood me, i don't like my union.. ha
 

kd5jos

macrumors 6502
Oct 28, 2007
432
144
Denver, CO
No, you're VERY wrong...

Yeah, you're right. I can't wait until we're just like China, with miserable working conditions and wages that result in widespread poverty and a lack of consumer spending leading to an eventual collapse of the domestic economy, as is now a looming threat in China. You're a genius.


Yes actually, that comment was genius. Working conditions in the U.S. PARTIALLY improved because of union, not SOLELY improved because of unions. Working conditions have improved WITHOUT union intervention. The problem is Union leaders look for any piece of ******** to attach to, so that they have a reason to charge money to union members. An example of this ******** attachment is the term, "living wage."

Working conditions would NOT devolve to misery. What WILL collapse the economy is workers that are required to be paid above what the market will tolerate causing artificial inflation driving up the price on other goods to compensate....

THAT WILL destroy an economy, and it doesn't take a genius to see it.
----------
"Democracy was needed in the days of corrupt imperialist government and taxation without representation. Now? Not so much."

Actually, with workers' wages rapidly falling in comparison to rising salaries for top management, I would argue that a strong labor movement is needed now more than ever. Too bad there's very little support for it thanks to years of propaganda being shoved down people's throats.

The propaganda is what you just spouted. What you described, causes more small businesses to come into existence to compete. Instead of centralizing power in a mass work force (union), it creates competition for the oligopolies. They know it, and it's what THEY don't want.
 

curmudgeon32

macrumors regular
Aug 28, 2012
240
1
So you're proud of getting twice the salary, but doing half of the job in comparison to the private market?
Are you proud of the erosion of the middle class over the past few decades as the tiny percent of people who control the vast majority of American wealth pit workers against each other by slandering anybody who still earns decent wages for skilled labor? Or are you proud of the fact that American workers are forced to compete with very low-wage offshore labor as their standard of living inevitably declines?

----------

On the contrary...it is in fact over regulation that has crippled manufacturing in many US companies...These companies, including small businesses ( which are essentially the engine of growth in the US ) are paralyzed by the lack of direction and bureaucracy of the current administration.
Go over to China and check on their pollution levels, then get back to us about all this "bureaucracy" and "over-regulation".

But.. if only Mitt had won and gotten rid of that pesky EPA, we'd all have jobs! That's what Fox News told you, right?
 

flindet

macrumors member
Aug 8, 2011
44
6
So you're proud of getting twice the salary, but doing half of the job in comparison to the private market?

This was unnecessary, rude, and not necessarily true. The way I interpret the original author is that s/he probably lives in the US (as do I). We've outsourced so much of this type of work, that this is rare. Since s/he's a union worker, s/he is probably excited/relieved to see some support for labor in his/her area.

By the way, working at a union shop doesn't make your business public sector. Public sector usually refers to government work, which may or may not be a union shop. At least, that's how I understand it.

A lot of working class folks don't mind spending a bit more to support local business, especially small business. Obviously, that's not Apple, but could help explain OP's support for assembly in the USA. That said, union workers would probably prefer to see a more even (fairer?) distribution of wealth in terms of salaries instead of doubling costs to the consumer, but that's typically decided by the execs, not the union workers.
 

unobtainium

macrumors 68030
Mar 27, 2011
2,592
3,855
This is a fallacy. First of all wages are not dropping. You're being purposefully obtuse with your words. Of course something that is rising makes something that is stationary or moving upward more slowly appear as if it's lowering.

In fact, just as almost always is the case, wages are either maintaining or increasing. And honestly it doesn't matter who it is because these a private companies, and like it or not, you have a choice to work there. If you don't like that the CEO got a raise, leave. It's a free market (kind of) and a free country.

Secondly, if what you say is true, most Americans would be making minimum wage. However, less than 11% in all groups of hourly workers make minimum wage. And that rate is 5% for people with a high school diploma. (Bureau of Labor Statistics) It's not unions that keep us from having "miserable working conditions and wages," it's a free market that does so. Wages are part of the market. If people want talented workers they have to pay for it. That's why those who switch jobs more frequently tend to make higher wages. Labor is a commodity.

And also, the terrible working conditions and wages in third world countries are better than the alternative. In countries where child labor is prevalent, the alternative is often child prostitution. But no one mentions that. Either is sad, but working in a factory is quite a bit better than children having intercourse for money.



And the people too.

I'm the one being purposefully obtuse? You are aware that if the cost of living is rising and wages are staying stationary while salaries for CEOs balloon, that means wages are effectively dropping for labor and rising for top management right?

And you're right, Chinese workers with 15 hour days making $5 a day and living in squalor should be grateful for what the elites deign to pay them. After all, it's better than child prostitution right? We should all have that attitude!
 

ARandomFellow

macrumors member
Aug 17, 2011
77
5
So you're proud of getting twice the salary, but doing half of the job in comparison to the private market?

Or perhaps he's proud of banding together to ensure that the workers who actually make stuff and do the work get a piece of the pie. Remember this is America, land of the proud, home of the brave, land of opportunity, exporter of freedom and prosperity? Why shouldn't employees benefit when a company is succeeding? Who wrote the rule that all profit had to go to the corporation? Corporations, no doubt. The Wall Street mentality that every company has to continually make more and more and more and more profit is plain crazy. Every company should struggle and scrap and fight to create more wealth, and use that to pay its employees and improve products/services and feed the Wall Street beast last. That money will comes as well, but it is employees who make the company successful and customers who buy their products that should benefit first. Wall Street just brings money. Sure, a balance has to be found, but that shouldn't start as it generally seems to, with cutting out the employees as a factor or treating them as a liability. Anyone who suggests otherwise is smoking something.
 

ARandomFellow

macrumors member
Aug 17, 2011
77
5
Sorry just a quick rant, I work at a grocery store where i make 10 cents over minimum wage, I am part time, and I have paid 500 dollars to the Union this year.. I work much harder then most of my coworkers infact my mangers even tell me this. The only thing the union has done for me is take my money, and give my lazy coworkers job security... If we were not union, even if i only got minimum wage I would still make more money then paying union dues. Also I would have likely gotten promoted since so many unneeded lazy works would be fired. Not everyone who is in a union likes it.

Sounds to me like you have a lousy union. Or a lousy employer. Or both. The fault isn't that the union exists though. The fault is in this particular relationship between union and employer. Obviously, something is broken and needs to be fixed.
 

danranda

macrumors member
Aug 23, 2012
56
27
Executive Raises & laborer pay cuts

That whole "union" thing worked out great for Hostess employees!

Have you actually done any amount of research about the crisis at Hostess? :confused:

CEO "earns" a 300% raise during the filing of bankruptcy? who the hell earns a raise for being the chief officer at the helm as the ship sinks? must have been those damn unions right?

9 executives earn pay increases of 60 - 100% during this same time frame to skirt regulation regarding bonuses.

Meanwhile, over the years, the bakers have taken pay cuts, severe cuts to their pension plans and medical benefits, and were now asked to extend further pay cuts for 5 more years.

Would you elect to work harder, make less money, receive less benefits AND pay more for the meager benefits you will receive, ALL WHILE WATCHING YOUR COMPANY LEADERS DOUBLE AND TRIPLE THEIR PAY??
 

Minja

macrumors newbie
Oct 30, 2012
2
0
the american factory workforce priced itself out of the high tech market. wages they demand are high compared to chinese and vietnamese and even east european. has anyone calculated how much more apple products would cost if they were made in the usa? maybe americans would pay more for 'patriotic products'. it's hard to say now. another way would be for apple and other usa based companies to use the large mexican and central american illegal immigrant workforce now living in the usa to make products because they could get away with paying them chinese wages :)) and it would still be made in the usa:))
 

snberk103

macrumors 603
Oct 22, 2007
5,503
91
An Island in the Salish Sea
I tell you, if Apple gave me the choice of selecting my assembly location, USA or China and even if they charged me more for the USA one, I would pick it and pay more. I would home other Americans would do the same!

What about all the non-Americans who buy Apple products? And there are more of us than there are of you. Should we pay more for a product just so more Americans can work? How about we just set up a factory in the USA to supply American domestic needs? Then we could still buy the less expansive stuff, and you could buy the more expensive stuff. Which would, frankly, be a nice switch.

This means a lot. The other 95% of the world's population have their money invested in the USA. Manufacturing coming back to America would only mean we would see productivity improvements and more innovation in the USA. This means growth and higher returns on their investments.

Actually, we don't. The world is rapidly diversifying where it invests its money. Once upon a time, the US dollar was the reference currency. Now... even the Canadian dollar has been added as a reference currency - because so many people globally are investing here. Along with Australia, among others.

Except if you support your own country with goods produced there, then more people have jobs. ...your choice, America is great like that.

But what about the majority of the Mac buying world who are not American?
 

2499723

Cancelled
Dec 10, 2009
812
412
So you're proud of getting twice the salary, but doing half of the job in comparison to the private market?

Workers protections...yes, because with them, we'd be like...gasp...a totalitarian state? Go find a rock to hide under and don't push your political ideology on a website dedicated to the feverish consumption of capitalist goods. We've all heard the 'private' is better than 'public' drivel before. There are other forums for that debate...
 

marc11

macrumors 68000
Mar 30, 2011
1,618
4
NY USA
What about all the non-Americans who buy Apple products? And there are more of us than there are of you. Should we pay more for a product just so more Americans can work? How about we just set up a factory in the USA to supply American domestic needs? Then we could still buy the less expansive stuff, and you could buy the more expensive stuff. Which would, frankly, be a nice switch.



Actually, we don't. The world is rapidly diversifying where it invests its money. Once upon a time, the US dollar was the reference currency. Now... even the Canadian dollar has been added as a reference currency - because so many people globally are investing here. Along with Australia, among others.



But what about the majority of the Mac buying world who are not American?

My comment was only about me as an American wanting to support my own country and economy. You can do the same for your country if you like. Then cost of goods in your country and where they are made is really not my concern nor in my control.
 

Chupa Chupa

macrumors G5
Jul 16, 2002
14,835
7,396
this is great. I come from a union household and I really support this

What if they are made in a non-Union factory? Do you still support it? American jobs are American jobs, right? So why inject the union into it?
 

snberk103

macrumors 603
Oct 22, 2007
5,503
91
An Island in the Salish Sea
My comment was only about me as an American wanting to support my own country and economy. You can do the same for your country if you like. Then cost of goods in your country and where they are made is really not my concern nor in my control.

Yes, but your desire to increase the cost of Apple goods because it is good for Americans affects everybody. It is not uncommon, though, Americans to be so self-centric. That is the philosophical view. The logical view, however is that while it may be argued that Americans might buy more expensive American made goods for patriotic reasons, the vast majority of the rest of the world is not. It is much more likely that Apple will suffer financially, which puts any initial American job gains at risk in the long term.

But like I also suggested, perhaps the Americans can set up a factory just for domestic production. Although, past experience seems to indicate that more than anybody else, American consumers actually purchase based on price above all other considerations. I would predict a quick failure of a factory dedicated to domestic production.
 
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