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Old Dec 3, 2012, 01:15 PM   #251
eric/
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And the Mossad isn't??
Did I say they weren't?

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They weren't asking for statehood.
So they aren't part of the observer state?

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And besides they are no worse than the Israeli government. Can I claim Israel is a terrorist state?
I agree with you about not being worse, but then I realize that Israeli can be controlled and stopped.

And you can claim Israel as a terrorist state, but frankly it doesn't make any sense.

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Problem is that they are not building in Israel, they are stealing land, occupying land and then illegally building settlements for Israelis on Palestinian land. Theft and murder are considered illegal in most parts of the world.
And Hamas has been lobbing rockets at Israeli towns and suicide bombing.

They're both stupid.

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[QUOTE=takao;16418038]that on the same day Palestine get's an observer status the Israelians decide to approve 3000 additional settlers is a flat out provocation

reaction, not provocation. Regardless of how we feel about Israeli doing this (which I disagree with) it's not provocation, it's a reaction to the vote.

And of course, this was accurately predicted to further damage things.

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in fact France and even the UK are threatening with ambassador withdrawals over this ... and yet it get's rather little public coverage
People threaten to remove ambassador's all the time. Frankly it's just not that big of a deal.


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in the UN only 8 nations voted against Palestine as observer:
Israel, USA, UK, Czech Republic and 4 pacific island nations heavily dependent on the US
a rather predictable outcome (the Czechs were surprised themselves)
Because the US considers Hamas as a terrorist org, of course they would vote against it.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 03:02 PM   #252
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Because the US considers Hamas as a terrorist org, of course they would vote against it.
Hamas was not the one going for recognition. Hamas and Fatah are very different and both dislike each other. The US voted against it because there is a very strong Israeli lobby in the US.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:15 PM   #253
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Hamas was not the one going for recognition. Hamas and Fatah are very different and both dislike each other. The US voted against it because there is a very strong Israeli lobby in the US.
I don't deny that.

Did Hamas not receive any sort of recognition? Does this recognition not benefit them directly either way?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:33 PM   #254
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Did Hamas not receive any sort of recognition? Does this recognition not benefit them directly either way?
if a republican US president successfully negotiates an international treaty does the Democratic party get any sort of recognition or benefits from it ? (or vice versa)
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:36 PM   #255
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if a republican US president successfully negotiates an international treaty does the Democratic party get any sort of recognition or benefits from it ? (or vice versa)
Yes because it's not seen around the world as "a republican did XYZ", it's the United States did XYZ.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:52 PM   #256
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Yes because it's not seen around the world as "a republican did XYZ", it's the United States did XYZ.
Through Israeli actions against Fatah, they have strengthened Fatah's rival, Hamas.

Giving UN recognition through Abbas may strengthen Fatah politically.

So in this case there is a difference, possibly.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 05:20 PM   #257
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Did I say they weren't?
So you think Israel shouldn't be treated as a sovereign state?

You claim that Hamas are terrorists so that therefore Palestine can't be a sovereign state, but also that Mossad are as bad as Hamas. Given that Mossad is more clearly part of the Israeli state than Hamas is part of the Palestinian state it is totally logically inconsistent to be OK with Israel being a sovereign state if you continue this position.

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So they aren't part of the observer state?
See above.

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I agree with you about not being worse, but then I realize that Israeli can be controlled and stopped.
LOL

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And you can claim Israel as a terrorist state, but frankly it doesn't make any sense.
It makes as much sense as claiming Hamas is running a terrorist state, and you say that Hamas is no worse than Israel.

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reaction, not provocation. Regardless of how we feel about Israeli doing this (which I disagree with) it's not provocation, it's a reaction to the vote.
Same as with all of Hamas' suicide attacks.

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People threaten to remove ambassador's all the time. Frankly it's just not that big of a deal.
They do? Did the US or any other country threaten to remove their ambassador to India after the Golden Temple massacre or from China after the Tiananmen Square incident.

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Because the US considers Hamas as a terrorist org, of course they would vote against it.
It has nothing to do with Hamas and everything to do with the Israeli lobby in the US.

In the UK it has been the #2 story today (after the Duchess of Cambridge's pregnancy), so it has been a pretty big deal.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 05:36 PM   #258
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So you think Israel shouldn't be treated as a sovereign state?
I fail to see how the two are connected. All intelligence organizations in all countries that do anything have dirt on their hands.

Following this, you should logically make the argument that the US isn't a sovereign state because of Guantanamo Bay or something. It's a non-sequitur.

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LOL


When Israel wants to go and really do something like, idk, bomb Iran, the US can put political pressure on them and reign them in.

The Israelis don't engage in hostile activities without the sanction or order of their government. Hamas, on the other hand, can't stop it's fledgling terrorist minions from blowing themselves up or firing rockets. They don't have control.


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It makes as much sense as claiming Hamas is running a terrorist state,
No. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

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and you say that Hamas is no worse than Israel.
Well, when it comes to them being childish and both using each other for political gain, no they are pretty much on par. They both do petty things.


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Same as with all of Hamas' suicide attacks.
Same with Israel bombing Palestine.

Look this can go back and forth with the who started what, I'm merely pointing at what they are doing at this very moment. Not historically.


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They do? Did the US or any other country threaten to remove their ambassador to India after the Golden Temple massacre or from China after the Tiananmen Square incident.
Countries. Not the US. Countries get into spats and remove ambassador's and stuff all the time. Frankly, at least over here such a thing isn't a big deal. It's symbolic, nothig more.

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It has nothing to do with Hamas and everything to do with the Israeli lobby in the US.
Yup. I forgot, the US is ran by Israel. We're their sheep and we must do thy masters bidding.



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In the UK it has been the #2 story today (after the Duchess of Cambridge's pregnancy), so it has been a pretty big deal.
And you think that lends credibility to your argument? Why in the world is the pregnancy of some antiquated royalty national news in Britain?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 05:42 PM   #259
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I fail to see how the two are connected. All intelligence organizations in all countries that do anything have dirt on their hands.

Following this, you should logically make the argument that the US isn't a sovereign state because of Guantanamo Bay or something. It's a non-sequitur.
Right, so what's the problem with Palestine being a sovereign state?

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The Israelis don't engage in hostile activities without the sanction or order of their government. Hamas, on the other hand, can't stop it's fledgling terrorist minions from blowing themselves up or firing rockets. They don't have control.
They can't entirely stop it, but they have a fair bit of control. I don't think the US can hold Israels leash that tightly...

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No. Hamas is a terrorist organization.
According to whom?

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Well, when it comes to them being childish and both using each other for political gain, no they are pretty much on par. They both do petty things.
If we are treating both sides equally then what's the issue with Palestine being treated as a sovereign state?

Unless we are going to take that status away from Israel.

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Same with Israel bombing Palestine.
Well obviously.


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Countries. Not the US. Countries get into spats and remove ambassador's and stuff all the time.
So the UK and France do this "all the time"? Source?

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Why in the world is the pregnancy of some antiquated royalty national news in Britain?
Because its our royalty? You think Michelle Obama becoming pregnant wouldn't be the biggest story of the day in the US? EDIT: For me its the top story on CNN, and the Israel thing is barely covered - on the US page I can't see any coverage.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 05:53 PM   #260
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Right, so what's the problem with Palestine being a sovereign state?
None, to me, so long as Hamas isn't involved.


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They can't entirely stop it, but they have a fair bit of control. I don't think the US can hold Israels leash that tightly...
Ok

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According to whom?
United States of America.

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If we are treating both sides equally then what's the issue with Palestine being treated as a sovereign state?
Nothing, so long as they aren't Hamas.

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Unless we are going to take that status away from Israel.
How or why would that happen?

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So the UK and France do this "all the time"? Source?
Did I say the UK and France do it all the time?

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Because its our royalty? You think Michelle Obama becoming pregnant wouldn't be the biggest story of the day in the US? EDIT: For me its the top story on CNN, and the Israel thing is barely covered - on the US page I can't see any coverage.
The point is that your criticizing this irrelevant diplomatic dispute not being on national American TV, but at the same time the #1 story in Britain is this pregnancy. Frankly, it's not a big deal, and certainly not a big deal here. Maybe it's a big deal in the UK since it was your ambassador, but here? Couldn't care less about symbolic gestures like that.

And, FWIW I get my news mainly from Al Jazeera. It's not #1 (or even mentioned on the front page there).
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 10:46 PM   #261
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United States of America
OK, so if the Chinese government labeled the Dalai Lama and his allies a terrorist organisation (which from their perspective actually seems pretty reasonable) would you just accept it at face value?

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How or why would that happen?
Because at this point Israel has two allies, Germany and the US. They are in a much worse place than 15 years ago, when Europe and the US were both firmly Israel's allies. And none of the BRIC's are Israeli allies.

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Did I say the UK and France do it all the time?

The point is that your criticizing this irrelevant diplomatic dispute not being on national American TV, but at the same time the #1 story in Britain is this pregnancy. Frankly, it's not a big deal, and certainly not a big deal here. Maybe it's a big deal in the UK since it was your ambassador, but here? Couldn't care less about symbolic gestures like that.
As the British don't go around saying what they did all the time it is a pretty big deal. Additionally and more importantly the head of the UN came out and said that Israel wasn't serious about peace. That none of this stuff got any coverage in the US is really rather weird.

Additionally the British have been Israeli allies since the beginning and I believe we helped them with their nuclear program, so we aren't exactly anti-Israel traditionally.

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And, FWIW I get my news mainly from Al Jazeera. It's not #1 (or even mentioned on the front page there).
So "Israel rejects outcry over settlement plan" isn't on the front page for you?
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 09:33 AM   #262
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When Israel wants to go and really do something like, idk, bomb Iran, the US can put political pressure on them and reign them in.

The Israelis don't engage in hostile activities without the sanction or order of their government. Hamas, on the other hand, can't stop it's fledgling terrorist minions from blowing themselves up or firing rockets. They don't have control.
Here, is one of the two main reasons why the Palestinians did not have the support of the US. They do not have control over the militants who are hell bent on the destruction of Israel.

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Right, so what's the problem with Palestine being a sovereign state?

They can't entirely stop it, but they have a fair bit of control. I don't think the US can hold Israels leash that tightly...

If we are treating both sides equally then what's the issue with Palestine being treated as a sovereign state?
The second main reason why the Palestinians did not have our support is because they aren't acting like a sovereign state. They are acting like terrorists. A sovereign state either declares war and deals with the consequences, or they sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution of their dispute.

The Palestinians have rejected or walked away from UN peace efforts, US peace negotiations, and even offers from Israel that are better than the status quo. Going to the UN and requesting that their status be changed without ever negotiating a peace or a resolution of some sort with Israel is a provocation to the people who they should be talking with. The same people the militants they cannot control are shooting rockets at. The same people their government has refused to acknowledge as a valid state, and refused to negotiate with.

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OK, so if the Chinese government labeled the Dalai Lama and his allies a terrorist organisation (which from their perspective actually seems pretty reasonable) would you just accept it at face value?
If the Dalai Lama was shooting rockets into Beijing and blowing up busses of innocent civilians, then I'd probably believe the Chinese government.

(edit) If history holds true, that observation will be attacked as somehow "pro-Israel." My only point is that if the Palestinians wanted a two state solution, they could have one. If the Palestinians wanted a soveriegn state, they could be one. All they have to do is insist on Israel sitting down with them to hammer out the details. The ball is in their court.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 10:51 AM   #263
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A sovereign state either declares war and deals with the consequences, or they sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution of their dispute.
What a simplified idea. Doesn't seem to be true about the US and Iran or Pakistan.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 11:28 AM   #264
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What a simplified idea. Doesn't seem to be true about the US and Iran or Pakistan.
Of course there are situations between sovereign states that don't fit any sort of simplified descriptions, but we aren't talking about two sovereign states. We are talking about people who want to be a sovereign state. In that situation, they must act like a sovereign state, even if that means showing the world and Israel (who you must negotiate with) that you can abide by simplified constructs.

As it stands, they aren't.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 11:46 AM   #265
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OK, so if the Chinese government labeled the Dalai Lama and his allies a terrorist organisation (which from their perspective actually seems pretty reasonable) would you just accept it at face value?
I don't accept anything at face value.


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Because at this point Israel has two allies, Germany and the US. They are in a much worse place than 15 years ago, when Europe and the US were both firmly Israel's allies. And none of the BRIC's are Israeli allies.
BRIC doesn't matter.

So you think the UN is going to just wake up tomorrow and "take away" Israel as a state? That's delusional at best friend. Israel is a functioning government, with control over its territory and militaries. The UN could vote all it wants, but Israel would still be a government.


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As the British don't go around saying what they did all the time it is a pretty big deal. Additionally and more importantly the head of the UN came out and said that Israel wasn't serious about peace. That none of this stuff got any coverage in the US is really rather weird.
It's not weird, because nobody cares about symbolic political posturing.

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Additionally the British have been Israeli allies since the beginning and I believe we helped them with their nuclear program, so we aren't exactly anti-Israel traditionally.
Never said the British were or weren't.

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So "Israel rejects outcry over settlement plan" isn't on the front page for you?
That doesn't say "UK and France bring their ambassadors back".

Then in the article it's mentioned on one line.

Dude, it is not a big deal. At all.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 01:37 PM   #266
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Of course there are situations between sovereign states that don't fit any sort of simplified descriptions, but we aren't talking about two sovereign states. We are talking about people who want to be a sovereign state. In that situation, they must act like a sovereign state, even if that means showing the world and Israel (who you must negotiate with) that you can abide by simplified constructs.

As it stands, they aren't.
Did Israel formally declare war on Lebanon in 2006?
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 01:41 PM   #267
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Here, is one of the two main reasons why the Palestinians did not have the support of the US. They do not have control over the militants who are hell bent on the destruction of Israel.



The second main reason why the Palestinians did not have our support is because they aren't acting like a sovereign state. They are acting like terrorists. A sovereign state either declares war and deals with the consequences, or they sit down and negotiate a peaceful resolution of their dispute.

The Palestinians have rejected or walked away from UN peace efforts, US peace negotiations, and even offers from Israel that are better than the status quo. Going to the UN and requesting that their status be changed without ever negotiating a peace or a resolution of some sort with Israel is a provocation to the people who they should be talking with. The same people the militants they cannot control are shooting rockets at. The same people their government has refused to acknowledge as a valid state, and refused to negotiate with.



If the Dalai Lama was shooting rockets into Beijing and blowing up busses of innocent civilians, then I'd probably believe the Chinese government.

(edit) If history holds true, that observation will be attacked as somehow "pro-Israel." My only point is that if the Palestinians wanted a two state solution, they could have one. If the Palestinians wanted a soveriegn state, they could be one. All they have to do is insist on Israel sitting down with them to hammer out the details. The ball is in their court.
By looking at the map today it looks to me like the Israelis are hell bent on the destruction of Palestine and not the other way around as you claim. Abbas recognizes the State of Israel and a two state solution while Israel does not recognize a Palestinian State and a two state solution. The latest veto proves this and speaks for its self.

Are you Jewish or follow the Torah by any chance?
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 02:42 PM   #268
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Abbas recognizes the State of Israel and a two state solution while Israel does not recognize a Palestinian State and a two state solution.
Would you provide a reference that Abbas recognizes the state of Israel? Because all my sources point to no.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 03:00 PM   #269
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Would you provide a reference that Abbas recognizes the state of Israel? Because all my sources point to no.
The PLO which he is in charge of recognizes Israel. The letter may have been signed by Arafat, but I haven't seen anything to say that they've unrecognized Israel. Added bold to show where they recognize Israel.

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September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:
The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.
The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.
The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.
The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators
In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

Sincerely,
Yasser Arafat

Chairman

The Palestine Liberation Organization
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ce/recogn.html

Edit: after looking at some of the links on your search, it looks like what you are confusing is the fact that they wont recognize Israel as a Jewish state since that would mean that Palestinian refugees who want to return couldn't. They have recognized Israel's right to exist as a state for almost 20 years though.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 03:12 PM   #270
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The PLO which he is in charge of recognizes Israel. The letter may have been signed by Arafat, but I haven't seen anything to say that they've unrecognized Israel.
Thanks.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 03:21 PM   #271
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Would you provide a reference that Abbas recognizes the state of Israel? Because all my sources point to no.
Guess it depends on how you define recognizing a state.

If Abbas recognized Israel with the 67 borders and no right of return I would consider that recognizing Israel.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 03:46 PM   #272
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I don't accept anything at face value.
Except the word of the Israeli government.

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BRIC doesn't matter.
Um, yes they do. They are the countries where most people in the world live. Its practically guaranteed that at the end of the 21st century that they will be world powers as they have the most people - even if they stick as middle income countries.

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So you think the UN is going to just wake up tomorrow and "take away" Israel as a state?
If they did then Israel would be in a very weak position.

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It's not weird, because nobody cares about symbolic political posturing.
Its not really symbolic when the head of the UN says you aren't serious about peace - and when two of your very small number of remaining allies reject you.

The same applied when Turkey withdrew their co-operation with Israel.

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If the Palestinians wanted a soveriegn state, they could be one. All they have to do is insist on Israel sitting down with them to hammer out the details. The ball is in their court.
Funny how the head of the UN utterly disagrees with you.

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That doesn't say "UK and France bring their ambassadors back".

Then in the article it's mentioned on one line.

Dude, it is not a big deal. At all.
If you understood how few allies Israel had these days you'd understand that actually it is a big deal. Additionally the whole surrounding issue is even more important, especially the statement from the head of the UN, and none of that has been covered even by CNN.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 05:22 PM   #273
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Of course there are situations between sovereign states that don't fit any sort of simplified descriptions, but we aren't talking about two sovereign states. We are talking about people who want to be a sovereign state. In that situation, they must act like a sovereign state, even if that means showing the world and Israel (who you must negotiate with) that you can abide by simplified constructs.
How many other people living under enemy military occupation would you apply this criterion to? Just curious.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 06:24 PM   #274
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Except the word of the Israeli government.
Good thing you're hear to tell me what I think.


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Um, yes they do. They are the countries where most people in the world live. Its practically guaranteed that at the end of the 21st century that they will be world powers as they have the most people - even if they stick as middle income countries.
Implying Russia doesn't become an autocracy.
Implying China and India don't implode

Brazil is the only one that has a fighting chance.


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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
If they did then Israel would be in a very weak position.
You really think that the UN, whom created Israel and legitimized it's existence, would vote to not have them a state? Why not North Korea?

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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
Its not really symbolic when the head of the UN says you aren't serious about peace - and when two of your very small number of remaining allies reject you.
Let's be clear here. When you say allies, you're using the term politically. The British and French, Germans, and the US would rush to Israel's aid if they were attacked unprovoked. NATO would in general, and the UN likely would as well.

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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
The same applied when Turkey withdrew their co-operation with Israel.
And?

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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
If you understood how few allies Israel had these days you'd understand that actually it is a big deal. Additionally the whole surrounding issue is even more important, especially the statement from the head of the UN, and none of that has been covered even by CNN.
And do you know why it hasn't been covered?

I'll give you a hint:

It's not a big deal
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 07:24 PM   #275
Macky-Mac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
..... on the US page I can't see any coverage.
maybe the UK version of the "US" page doesn't show what we're actually getting on CNN?

CNN today: Israel defies international criticism of settlement plans
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