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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:24 PM   #226
Lancer
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Originally Posted by rocknblogger View Post
Actually touch on a large screen is a lot more natural than you think. Its not meant to replace a mouse and keyboard but rather add to the overall experience. I can think of plenty of instances where touch on the screen would be helpful and make sense. Just because you may not have the imagination to come up with anything doesn't mean that there's no use for it. Jeez neck and back problems
ITA, it's not like Apple would take away the KB/mouse and only allow users to touch the screen like the iPad.

I think either touch or motion tracking could have been the tech buzz needed to push the new iMac over the edge and get more people interested.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 05:41 PM   #227
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I like the concept of a touch screen monitor, but in practice I think there are few real applications. Even in the photo of the guy using a touch screen to edit an animated video, it looks like he needs to keep his hands and arms hovering above the screen to prevent inadvertently messing up the content and the screen.

The mouse and keyboard are fantastic devices for navigating large screens because a small excursion can cover a large area.....very efficient. Portable smaller screen devices (phones and tablets) benefit more from touch because the hands are already on the device and the smaller screen size requires smaller excursions.

The trade off with a smaller screen touch device is that desktop software is just not practical. For example, the MS Office ribbon is a nightmare in touch mode on a smaller portable device....so, touch screen devices really need to run touch optimized apps.

Again, I am not saying there aren't some applications for touch screen monitors, but I don't think it is a mainstream need at this time.
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Old Dec 1, 2012, 11:24 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Lone Deranger View Post
Actually, you’d be surprised how few of us CG-artists are actually using Wacom Cintiq devices as shown in your photograph. Many like the idea of using a Cintiq/Touch screen, it’s true, but they rarely live up to artists' expectations. Problems most commonly experienced are:
•Cursor lag (onscreen feedback is unable to keep up with quick gestural strokes).
•Cursor misalignment (the onscreen cursor is not precisely aligned beneath the tip of the stylus, especially in the corners of the tablet).
•Heat radiated by the display makes long drawing sessions uncomfortable.
•Poor display quality. Narrow colour gamut, inability to be properly colour calibrated, etc.
•No driver support under Linux.
•Uncomfortable surface grip. “Painting” on a display front made of glass (or some other highly smooth surface), with a plastic tipped stylus is slippery and not particularly pleasant.
•Uncomfortable to use in combination with a keyboard that offers hotkeys, marking menus, pie-menus, hotboxes, etc. Using one with a 3D application, while certainly possible, is often experienced as awkward and limiting. The Cintiqs have a few controls on the side that the user can program to function as hotkeys. And that works… kind of. I can’t see Apple designing a Touchscreen/Stylus Mac with controls like that on the side.

Now these problems may eventually be eradicated by better hardware and designs but there are other problems that are harder, maybe impossible to solve, like:
•Ergonomics. It’s hardly the best posture to maintain for 9-10 hours a day.
•Dirt/grease on the screen. You’d be surprised how often I’ve mistaken a grease smear on my display for a very light grey brush stroke on a white canvas in Photoshop.
•A touch screen would have to have a coating with low porosity to make sure it cleans properly. Matte coatings are problematic here. So this poses a problem with reflections of ceiling mounted lighting on that glossy surface, which after all needs to be orientated more or less horizontally to avoid further fatigue. Working on dark/black canvasses in such a situation would be horrendous. Forget about drawing anything subtle in shadows and expect it to come out correctly.
•Hands are in the way of the artwork. And this is a big one. Lots of artists don’t want to go back to having their own hands obscure the piece as they are working. Having a regular Wacom tablet in front of a normal display is actually favored by most, myself included. One hand on the tablet, holding the stylus, the other on the keyboard controlling hotkeys.

There are exceptions of course. Search and you will find artists that love their Cintiqs and would never go back to more, shall we say, conservative input devices. But they are in the vast minority, despite Cintiqs having already been out there for quite a few years.


I’m not saying things won’t ever change, just telling you what the current lay of the land is as I far as I can see.
Informative comment like this deserves a thumb up.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 01:53 AM   #229
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 01:55 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Or this...



...which is the second time I've posted this picture today, in response to the same tired argument.
What's missing in that picture? Keyboard! Where would the keyboard go? Two options I can think of:

1. On the screen. Blech. I can tolerate that on the iPad / iPhone but that's because I don't type much on those devices. On a desktop though, typing is my primary input.

2. The keyboard could possibly go in front of it, but you need to move the screen away 6-8 inches. Because your viewing angle has changed, you would have to elevate the screen more vertical so you could see it. Because of that elevation and the distance from the user, you'll get gorilla arms using the touch screen exclusively.

Another issue, is the touch area of a finger is significantly larger than a mouse pointer, so all your icons would need to be a lot bigger like MS tiles, or more spread out like launchpad.

Also, how would clicking and dragging work? How would right click work? iOS has removed the need for both, but they're still needed on the desktop. I think it's a gee-wizz thing that will wear off fast and people will be reaching for the trackpad.

Don't get me wrong, that is a great surface / touch screen for artists, but for everyone else, I don't think an exclusive touch screen is practical on a desktop.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 06:41 AM   #231
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Buy now or wait?

Does anyone else have a bad feeling about getting the new iMac now?

I'm afraid it will receive another update in no time, much like the iPad. I bought my iPad 3rd Gen two weeks before the iPad 4th Gen was released and I'm afraid I might get screwed again.

I was hoping for an iMac with Retina display. While I'm not disappointed the new model doesn't have one - knowing how good the displays look already - I'd be furious if another new model with Retina display was released next June.

So what do you think, wait because a better model should be released in no time, or get one now?

Thx!
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:20 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Virinprew View Post
Informative comment like this deserves a thumb up.
Thank you.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:29 AM   #233
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:30 AM   #234
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maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem too ergonomic to have a touchscreen for a desktop. a tablet.. yes.. but desktop my arms would have to keep hovering in the air frequently to do tasks if i were to really forego the traditional keyboard/mouse
Not only ergonomically, but just complete nonsense to have touch screen capability on a desktop or laptop.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 09:21 AM   #235
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Is there already cinebench or cinegeek stats for the 27'' / 3.4 i7 ???
Thank you.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 02:05 PM   #236
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Since there are no more Samsung displays in the new iMacs and only LGs, I'm a little concerned about color accuracy and reproduction. My 27" has been fantastic, but I'd definitely like to upgrade to a Thunderbolt machine soon - anybody have any gamut info for the new display vs the old one?
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 02:05 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by knewsom View Post
Since there are no more Samsung displays in the new iMacs and only LGs, I'm a little concerned about color accuracy and reproduction. My 27" has been fantastic, but I'd definitely like to upgrade to a Thunderbolt machine soon - anybody have any gamut info for the new display vs the old one?
i was under the impression that apple only sourced ips panels for imacs and that they have always been LG because samsung doesnt fabricate ips displays. Samsung does make some good VA displays though.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:17 AM   #238
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 04:26 AM   #239
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On the OP (sorry, Johnny-come-lately here), liking these new iMacs, particularly the 27".

Traditionally I would have held a bit more upgradability would be nice, but the reality is with the pace of technology and the refinement of OS X, by the time a maxed or judiciously BTO example is noticeably slowing up technology will have moved on by another four or five years anyway. Then it will make more sense to sell and buy new, regardless of upgrade options (lower-volume professional workflows will be a bit different, but I recall Tim Cook mentioning something about new Mac Pros here..). Apple have done a good job to make the all-in-one a compelling option.

Re touchscreens, if a persuasive use case(s) and implementation comes to light (and it wouldn't surprise me given the Windows 8 push in this area, provided voice or some other technology doesn't overtake it) then no doubt Apple will release their own elegant design that overcomes issues with competitors' products and is timed for market success. Then everyone will sit back and ask why no one did it before
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:28 AM   #240
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Just hope the screen doesn't get dust like the old ones. Then ill buy it in a heartbeat!
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:49 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Stotka View Post
Just hope the screen doesn't get dust like the old ones. Then ill buy it in a heartbeat!
Seeing as the screen is right up against the glass I doubt dust would get in.

From the official Apple site...
The new iMac display is not set behind the cover glass — it’s right up against it. The LCD itself is 5 mm thinner than before, and we used an advanced process called full lamination to eliminate a 2-mm gap between the LCD and the glass, something that has never been done on a display this large.

I'm actually more worried about there being a newer model in no time, like it happened with the iPad. Who knows if Apple will release an updated model with Retina display next June? I don't want to get screwed again...

Edit: Typo.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:59 AM   #242
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Im not to eager of a retina iMac for now. Don't even want the rMBP for the screen, more for the size/specs. From the looks of it my current iMac will be sold and ill get the 2012 27" just because of the dust thats starting to show up
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:18 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Stotka View Post
Im not to eager of a retina iMac for now. Don't even want the rMBP for the screen, more for the size/specs. From the looks of it my current iMac will be sold and ill get the 2012 27" just because of the dust thats starting to show up
My iMac is the older model from 2007 and it also has dust behind the glass. It only really shows when it's turned off, I don't notice it when it's running... but it's annoying nontheless.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 12:17 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Or this...

Image

...which is the second time I've posted this picture today, in response to the same tired argument.

Most people griping about monkey arms or whatever are only doing so because Steve Jobs said something back in the day, and now they're regurgitating it nonstop in an attempt to look smart.

You know, he was right...when it comes to vertically standing monitors. But for screens you can slide right in front of you and tilt back? There's no reason not to have them touch enabled. They'll be as comfortable to use as an iPad.
There's quite a few false assumptions here. I never heard Job's speech on touch screens and I don't care to. I use my current iMac 9 hours a day, and could not imagine holding my arms up for that long. Angled screen or not.

Something I don't think has been emphasized enough here is how a mouse or tablet shortens the distance your hand has to travel to do simple tasks. I can tell you without doubt that I will preform nearly any task quicker with my tablet versus whatever touchscreen.

Bottom Line: Touch-screen devices have a important role in many applications. However, a desktop computer is not one of them.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 10:46 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by brbrown1988 View Post
There's quite a few false assumptions here. I never heard Job's speech on touch screens and I don't care to. I use my current iMac 9 hours a day, and could not imagine holding my arms up for that long. Angled screen or not.

Something I don't think has been emphasized enough here is how a mouse or tablet shortens the distance your hand has to travel to do simple tasks. I can tell you without doubt that I will preform nearly any task quicker with my tablet versus whatever touchscreen.

Bottom Line: Touch-screen devices have a important role in many applications. However, a desktop computer is not one of them.
I agree, but our points are totally moot when compared against any other implementation that doesn't require such use.

I run the equipment/production/media department at a university and I have to feed close to a thousand students information about everyday. That also involves the many minor tasks like running web applications where students can sign up for proficiency tests.

Having a touch screen computer with a screen like the iMac allows the students to input information, surf the intranet for info, and do many other things without the need for a keyboard or mouse. Eliminating the keyboard and mouse makes it easier for the students to navigate and most importantly helps us not have to replace stolen input devices every semester.

Now, an iMac would be the perfect all-in-one Mac solution. Or, I can do the Mac Mini mounted under a table with touchscreen, or I could use a touchscreen PC.

I'd prefer the Mac of course.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 09:54 PM   #246
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Hi,

I am an old Apple customer from the times of Apple //e

well I am very disappointed at apple for their lack of researching what the customers want. they like to Force their choices on people.

For Example , the Lack of Second harddrive cage .. even a slim 7cm 2.5 inch ones ..

and add to that , if the Harddisk fails you will have to tear the system apart to replace it ... come on !

just put it accessable from behind just like the Ram is this VERY hard to do?

no ... and it is Frustrating. they just want to FORCE you to buy their SSD...

BAD MOVE ! APPLE.

did they manage to steal people money for that? big no all people opened their imacs and replaced their Harddisks , and added another one using the Optical drive bay , Sadly now we cant do that no more optical drive to use .

next comes the Graphic card ... APPLE WHERE ARE YOU FROM INNOVATION ?

let me explain ... there ARE 16x PCI Express CABELS !!! where is the PCIE 16X PORT ? who cares about a STUPID thunderbolt that works at PCIE 4x only ?

do you guys know that a PCIE 16X port needs no chip? it is just like a riser card. no additional cos at all. CRAZY ! just make standard PCIe 16x external port and NO COST and the CPU lanes take care of it !!!

Imagine a Graphic card box with powersupply that takes any VGA card sits beside the imac OPTIONAL. and make the imac smaller by keeping it on ivybridge HD4000 inside. it will run cooler also.

next the touch screen ... make the track PAD a 7 inch ips multi touch screen NOW. they are not expensive today. which works as a second screen .

where is the innovation APPLE ?

ofc the screen itself can be made touch screen too.

now the speakers ...

put a speaker to each corner and a center speaker and a subwoofer on the back. 4+1+1 surround imac is this too hard to do ?

and lastly ...

make every thing accessable ! Hard disk , RAM , Wifi board , Msata board.

if you do all those in new mac I will never buy a pc outside mac.
As much as I agree, Apple isn't trying to innovate for people like me or you. They are trying to innovate for people like my mother, who doesn't even care about computers, but wants them to look pretty, weigh 10lbs., and have little to no cables sticking out the back. If such people have a problem, they don't want to think about it. They will call people like me or you to fix it, or they will pay Apple to fix it, as long as they don't have to think about it.

From that perspective, taking possible options away could appear very similar to innovation.

The sad part is that some of these same people don't know or care what an SSD is, what difference it makes, and they certainly wouldn't understand if/why they should pay another $250 to add something with the word fusion in it. At some point, saying things like "It is faster," loses meaning.

Apple knows that people like my mother might buy whatever base model they offer, and that they can get away with including less in base models, while charging more knowledgable customers an extra $250 to add an important item they would normally want to be in that base model.

As always, it all comes down to economics.

But, then again, Apple has always wanted to make great products for "average" people.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 10:30 PM   #247
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Oh damn

Seems like my wife won

She prefers no wires and no clutter at the PC

Even though no wires an no clutter mean getting raped

Get the lube
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 11:29 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by RammyXX View Post
Does anyone else have a bad feeling about getting the new iMac now?

I'm afraid it will receive another update in no time, much like the iPad. I bought my iPad 3rd Gen two weeks before the iPad 4th Gen was released and I'm afraid I might get screwed again.

I was hoping for an iMac with Retina display. While I'm not disappointed the new model doesn't have one - knowing how good the displays look already - I'd be furious if another new model with Retina display was released next June.

So what do you think, wait because a better model should be released in no time, or get one now?

Thx!
I agree with you on the iPad 4. I was in the same boat. I wasn't happy.

But I don't see the same risk with the 2013 iMac. The big difference in the iPad 4th gen is the speed and that is from a chip that was released for the iPhone soon after the iPad 3rd gen release. I don't see new chips from Intel being twice as fast as Ivy Bridge.

What would be the significant changes that they can bring in less than a year? Faster processor. Better SSD or Fusion. Better graphics card. The design will unlikely change. Apple is not big on adding things they have taken away so forget DVDs, BluRay, microphone inputs, Firewire, decent speakers.

I keep hearing about retina screens, but at a cost of over $200 for a 13" screen, that cost would be considerably higher on a 21 or 27 inch retina screen. And I don't know that much about screens, but I think that the difficulty in getting a screen that big in production, with reasonable yields, might be difficult. The power in the CPU and GPU would be higher just to support the screen. And then the software to take advantage of it would have to be made available. I might be missing something, but I think the gap between "Hoping" for a retina screen and a "reasonable expectation" of delivery is huge. And given that they were a year and a half in releasing these iMacs, and their focus is so much more on the portable products, I can't see anything significant next year. And any focus on the high end stuff will almost surely be on the MacPro.

If I am off base let me know, because I am looking to purchase a new iMac in the next couple of weeks.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 12:13 AM   #249
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Not sure if serious....

I mean it looks like serious work getting the display off, not to mention the high risk of damaging something whilst opening the imac, but the ram is industry standard ddr3 sodimms. OTOH MBA and rMBP have the ram soldered into the logic board and are hopelessly un- upgradeable
Yep, I was serious, but misinformed! I thought this one was soldered-in like the rMBPs, but apparently you can do it yourself if you've brave enough.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:06 PM   #250
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i was under the impression that apple only sourced ips panels for imacs and that they have always been LG because samsung doesnt fabricate ips displays. Samsung does make some good VA displays though.
Samsung's PLS tech is basically the same as IPS tech. I believe I read there were both Samsung and LG panels in iMacs, but I suppose I could be wrong.
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