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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:45 AM   #26
Moyank24
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
From their doctor/pharmacist. You are acting like you have to run the gauntlet to get this stuff. Its a simple visit to the doctor, pick up the phone, call, make an appointment. We didn't have planned parenthood in rural Kansas, if its easily accessible there, then its easily accessible everywhere.
I'll have to take your word for it, as you are obviously an expert on how teenage girls obtain birth control.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:47 AM   #27
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So, instead you would rather pay for the results of a woman not being able to get an abortion/birth control? I assure you we are paying much for the unplanned children than we are to prevent them.

It just doesn't make sense. And the fact that people think it does amazes me.
Aie. And a welfare supported baby costs the tax payers a lot more than a condom.

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No, I would much rather the person who had the child pay for their own child.
Just how do you expect people below the poverty line to do that?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:49 AM   #28
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I'll have to take your word for it, as you are obviously an expert on how teenage girls obtain birth control.
Is there something you wanted to add? Do you have to have a bachelors degree or a masters to make an appointment with your doctors to discuss birth control and get a prescription?

I went with my wife a few months back, she didn't say anything about a polygraph or physical endurance tests to get a prescription.

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Just how do you expect people below the poverty line to do that?
Getting a job.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:50 AM   #29
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No, I would much rather the person who had the child pay for their own child.

Theres a lot of talk about the "man" holding you down, but I see very little in terms of personal responsibility.
Of course you would rather them pay for their own child. We all would. But here in the real world, let's try to actually try and solve the problem instead of just saying NO to everything. Let's be realistic and try to prevent this stuff from happening.

And in terms of personal responsibility, isn't that exactly what a woman is trying to do when obtaining birth control? Why rely on the man?

And, again, in terms of personal responsiblity, the woman has much more reason to want to protect herself than a man does. Unless something has changed since I was a kid and men can now get pregnant.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:51 AM   #30
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It has always amazed me that the anti-abortion crowd was always against sex education and contraception (even barrier methods and methods that prevent implantation). I was an elected member of a parent council at our local secondary school. The school screened a sex ed video to get comments from the parents about whether it was appropriate. Given the level of prudishness the parents exhibited, you'd they'd had sex no more times than they had children.....
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:52 AM   #31
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And in terms of personal responsibility, isn't that exactly what a woman is trying to do when obtaining birth control? Why rely on the man?
So you don't want to rely on a man, but you want him to fund your contraception?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:53 AM   #32
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Getting a job.
These people usually have jobs. They just don't pay enough to support a child.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:54 AM   #33
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Is there something you wanted to add? .
Only that your anecdotal evidence and your unrealistic, ignorant thinking doesn't exactly give you much credibility, which is why I'm questioning you.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:55 AM   #34
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These people usually have jobs. They just don't pay enough to support a child.
Do they pay enough to fund condoms?

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Only that your anecdotal evidence and your unrealistic, ignorant thinking doesn't exactly give you much credibility, which is why I'm questioning you.
Just as I thought. Nothing to add.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:55 AM   #35
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Do they pay enough to fund condoms?
Not necessarily, no.

Also many younger people don't see condoms as a priority for their limited funding. Especially when they think they know how to "cheat" the boilogical system.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:57 AM   #36
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Not necessarily, no.
Minimum wage dictates an hour of work is going to buy you enough condoms to last at least a couple days unless you are running this as a business.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:00 PM   #37
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Minimum wage dictates an hour of work is going to buy you enough condoms to last at least a couple days unless you are running this as a business.
People at minimum wage struggle to pay for food and rent. Every dollar counts. Condoms aren't viewed as a priority. Especially for those who think they can "cheat" the biological system, as many teenagers and young adults unfortunately do. (ie. pulling out early... Jumping around right after... "she can't get pregnant her first time")
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:04 PM   #38
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So you don't want to rely on a man, but you want him to fund your contraception?
So, men are the only Americans who pay taxes?

I'm going to have to call Obama and ask for a refund.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:09 PM   #39
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----------

Just how do you expect people below the poverty line to do that?
Very good question - and, in a time of deep recession, - jobs are not easily come by. And the ones that are, tend to be miserably paid.

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It has always amazed me that the anti-abortion crowd was always against sex education and contraception (even barrier methods and methods that prevent implantation). ....
Yes, and this is why I have long doubted that it is to do with money (or, as some would see it, 'subsidising the sex lives of others'), but is to do with the deeper issue of control over sexually active women.

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Of course you would rather them pay for their own child. We all would. But here in the real world, let's try to actually try and solve the problem instead of just saying NO to everything. Let's be realistic and try to prevent this stuff from happening.

And in terms of personal responsibility, isn't that exactly what a woman is trying to do when obtaining birth control? Why rely on the man?

And, again, in terms of personal responsiblity, the woman has much more reason to want to protect herself than a man does. Unless something has changed since I was a kid and men can now get pregnant.
Exactly.

And, for those right-wingers who come up with (spurious) economic arguments, any aid worker knows that the surest way of improving a nation's GDP is to educate and economically empower women. This presupposes easy (easy as in hassle-free) access to cheap, (that means affordable), reliable (well, that means reliable) birth control.

When women have access to affordable, reliable birth control, abortion rates fall. (Surely this is what those who are anti-abortion claim to want?) And birth rates tend to fall, too, as women have children when they choose to have them, not when they are obliged to have them.



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So you don't want to rely on a man, but you want him to fund your contraception?
Excuse me? Again, the argument is for ready access to affordable birth control. And again, the argument is about control, whether the woman has control over her own fertility or whether that control is ceded elsewhere.

Besides, relying on male goodwill in such matters does not always work.

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So, men are the only Americans who pay taxes?

I'm going to have to call Obama and ask for a refund.
Yes, I know. You have to spell it out - women pay taxes, too.

Somehow women don't rank as fully human in some discussions concerning female sexuality. And, as we all know, those who are not seen as fully human, do not always get to enjoy the rights of adult citizens.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 12:10 PM   #40
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It makes me curious as to why it seems to frighten people (and specifically some people on this board) that women might be sexually active and want to be proactive in pregnancy prevention.

Secondly, as a woman in Ohio, I had a hell of a time getting a prescription for birth control at 15. The kicker was, it was given by my doctor as part of the regimen to prevent a relapse of my ovarian cancer. It wasn't like I was going in going "Oh gimme a pill doc, I'm looking to **** every guy i see", but I had to have both parents' signatures, which is sad, because my dad had passed by that point.

Fortunately, there was a planned parenthood in my area. Mom and I went in, $5 later I had my prescription.

Oh and to the persons fixated on "free birth control", most PP's charge a $5-10 for the pill. Generally at PP what's free are condoms. Volunteered at one in college, as much as people want to call it some kind of tax leech, the truth is, most condom/IUD/pill/etc manufacturers supply to PP for either low cost or free as a tax shelter. Most of the tax funding goes to pay the doctors and nurse practitioners for their time (as well as administrative costs).
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 01:01 PM   #41
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http://www.mnn.com/family/babies-pre...tes-to-plummet

...and this just in, water is wet.

What irritates me the most about this study, is how many people and politicians scream and gnash their teeth over the idea of insurance paid and free birth control. These are also some of the biggest anti-Abortion advocates, I just don't get it. If you want to cut the number of abortions, make it easier to access contraceptives (and obviously education).

But no, expect other people to be celibate to protect your fragile sensibilities.
More importantly, while free birth control causes abortion rates to go down, outlawing abortion doesn't:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html

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A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:49 PM   #42
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Excuse me? Again, the argument is for ready access to affordable birth control. And again, the argument is about control, whether the woman has control over her own fertility or whether that control is ceded elsewhere.

Besides, relying on male goodwill in such matters does not always work.
Every pharmacy carries birth control, it is manufactured and sold just like any other drug. It's as affordable as it is to manufacture and bring to market dictates, end of story.

Sorry to end the crusade, but you already have full control of your body, including making sure that whenever you choose to have sex that some form of contraception is used.

You can also seek an abortion, although not tax payer funded.

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So, men are the only Americans who pay taxes?

I'm going to have to call Obama and ask for a refund.
Men pay at least 50% of the taxes, so by asking for tax payer money you are asking men to subsidize you. Those same damn dirty men who are chaining women to chairs and forcing them to have sex without contraception around the US.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:59 PM   #43
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Every pharmacy carries birth control, it is manufactured and sold just like any other drug. It's as affordable as it is to manufacture and bring to market dictates, end of story.

Sorry to end the crusade, but you already have full control of your body, including making sure that whenever you choose to have sex that some form of contraception is used.

You can also seek an abortion, although not tax payer funded.

Men pay at least 50% of the taxes, so by asking for tax payer money you are asking men to subsidize you. Those same damn dirty men who are chaining women to chairs and forcing them to have sex without contraception around the US.
You really have a simplistic and completely unrealistic world view, don't you?

This isn't a crusade - it's logic. And logic and reason don't seem to be strong points for many when talking about women and sex.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 03:04 PM   #44
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Men pay at least 50% of the taxes, so by asking for tax payer money you are asking men to subsidize you. Those same damn dirty men who are chaining women to chairs and forcing them to have sex without contraception around the US.
I can't say your replies surprise me but let me ask you this. Do you have the same problem with women subsidizing Viagra for all the limpy guys out there?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 03:29 PM   #45
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I can't say your replies surprise me but let me ask you this. Do you have the same problem with women subsidizing Viagra for all the limpy guys out there?
Actually yes, if the government is subsidizing Viagra with tax money I would.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 03:36 PM   #46
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I'm thankful every day my tax money doesn't go to an abortion because that's one more study participant I can fund to have an orgasm while hooked to an EEG.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:00 PM   #47
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I really don't understand why anyone cares if contraceptive is given out free.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:11 PM   #48
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I really don't understand why anyone cares if contraceptive is given out free.
Because contraception reminds people that women have sex - and apparently people are obsessed with the fact that women have sex.

Our taxes pay for a great amount of ridiculous and needless medical procedures / medications that don't have the positive impact that contraception has - and yet, nobody seems to complain about it. But *gasp* women having sex?? It becomes a problem.

Hyprocrisy and ignorance all around.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Every pharmacy carries birth control, it is manufactured and sold just like any other drug. It's as affordable as it is to manufacture and bring to market dictates, end of story.

Sorry to end the crusade, but you already have full control of your body, including making sure that whenever you choose to have sex that some form of contraception is used.

You can also seek an abortion, although not tax payer funded.

----------



Men pay at least 50% of the taxes, so by asking for tax payer money you are asking men to subsidize you. Those same damn dirty men who are chaining women to chairs and forcing them to have sex without contraception around the US.
As is usual, condescending and patronising nonsense from the conservatives. Confusing argument with insult - an old, old strategem. I have already posted that I am not from the US and nor do I live there, so your observation that 'every pharmacy' carries birth control is not true. Until quite recently, certainly within my life time and my memory, the happy position you post was not the norm in large parts of Europe, and is still not the norm in vast tracts of the world.

In the Catholic part of Europe where I grew up contraception was illegal. Information on contraception was illegal (in 1976 the Government banned a family Planning (Information) leaflet under the Censorship Act on the grounds that it was 'obscene' literature). The sale and distribution of contraceptives was illegal. Get real. The world does nor begin and nor does it end with your cosy corner of the United States.

This is not a 'crusade' but a desire to have the same civil and economic and political and social rights as heterosexual males. Simple logic, something rational, believe it or not. Essentially, it is the desire to have control over our bodies. And our lives. And please don't tell me that the 'crusade' is won, not when vast tracts of the USA seemed quite willing to contemplate a giant leap backwards into the welcome deep, dank foliage of the Dark Ages where attitudes to women (and race, gender, gays, & ethnic minorities) were simply ghastly & quite primitive (remember the revealing eloquence of the slip of the tongue when Mr Romney argued that his people had brought him 'binders full of women?') by considering a vote for the dreadful platform of Mr Romney...

I have worked in countries where women are kidnapped, raped and then forced to marry the perpetrator because not to do so - were she to decline his 'offer' of marriage - would case him to lose face and force her family to face disgrace. This practice goes by the gnomic euphemism of 'bride kidnapping'. On my most recent mission (which took place this year, when I observed an election), this had happened to the splendid young woman who served as my interpreter. So, don't give me that insulting patronising offensive nonsense about 'women chained to chairs'. It happens. I have worked with people to whom something this grotesque happened. With respect, your knowledge of the world appears.......spectacularly uninformed, (clearly by complacent desire, as you clearly have no intention of rectifying the many gaping holes in your knowledge of women's lives), corralled as it by a world view informed by strident attitudes reinforced by rigid ideology.



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You really have a simplistic and completely unrealistic world view, don't you?

This isn't a crusade - it's logic. And logic and reason don't seem to be strong points for many when talking about women and sex.
Oh, yes, oh, yes. Agreed.

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I really don't understand why anyone cares if contraceptive is given out free.
They shouldn't but they do because it is all about control, and power, not money. Money is just the excuse, the fig-leaf to confer a veneer of spurious logic on an utterly repellant position.

If these conservatives really believed the utter tosh they say they believe, then they would campaign for a vast increase in the funding of education for the poor and for women (because nothing else succeeds in terms of dollars - or any other currency - in transforming a country for the better; nothing) - but they don't. They whine and whinge about 'taxes' and 'Government' intruding on their lives.

Again, it is tedious to see that one needs to reiterate the old, and obvious - almost tired - point. Allowing women control over their lives (which, by definition includes sexual autonomy and independence, which, of course cannot be achieved without political, social and economic autonomy), is something which really touches a visceral nerve in some conservative circles.

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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
Because contraception reminds people that women have sex - and apparently people are obsessed with the fact that women have sex.

Our taxes pay for a great amount of ridiculous and needless medical procedures / medications that don't have the positive impact that contraception has - and yet, nobody seems to complain about it. But *gasp* women having sex?? It becomes a problem.

Hyprocrisy and ignorance all around.
You took the words right out of my mouth......but it is that women are - or might be - having sex without having sought permission to do so (i.e. being married or some other form of socially approved sexual activity), the old, old fear of 'uncontrolled' female sexuality with which so many religions are utterly and neurotically obsessed.

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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:38 PM   #50
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Our taxes pay for a great amount of ridiculous and needless medical procedures / medications that don't have the positive impact that contraception has - and yet, nobody seems to complain about it. But *gasp* women having sex?? It becomes a problem.
Is this actually true? Because if taxpayer money were being used to fund "a great amount" of procedures and/or medications that are both "ridiculous" and "needless," I would oppose that, too.

Contraceptives are legal prescription drugs. They should be treated as such, with no more or less consideration than any other legal prescription drugs. The government isn't paying for mine, and I'd rather not pay for anyone else's. Women having sex, however, I'm okay with.
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