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Old Dec 5, 2012, 02:46 PM   #76
VulchR
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I know this doesn't exactly follow the flow of discussion, but I was surprised that some in this thread feel like they are attacked personally for criticizing Apple. Personally, I haven't seen this, so would anybody be willing to provide anonymised examples? Not trying to provoke an argument, but trying to understand....
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 03:01 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
I know this doesn't exactly follow the flow of discussion, but I was surprised that some in this thread feel like they are attacked personally for criticizing Apple. Personally, I haven't seen this, so would anybody be willing to provide anonymised examples? Not trying to provoke an argument, but trying to understand....
Well a good example are the threads of people expressing their anger when their iPhone 5 bent.

Initial reactions from some people is that it's his fault for sitting on it even when the post specified that he/she never sat on it. Others were just deyning any possibility the phone could bend and straight out called him/her a liar.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:09 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Mac'nCheese View Post
Its mind boggling that a moderator can read things like "you're just being obnoxious" and not think that that is an insult.
It's mind boggling that you think that is an insult. I really don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Mac'nCheese View Post
I agree. But the one I quoted was. See, this is my point. I make a point, give an example of an insult and get the answer "not every rude post..." Yeah, but this one was. You guys can't stop towing the company line, so to speak.
I have to repeat that I just don't see the insult. Maybe you're a weeny bit too sensitive?
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:15 PM   #79
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I think this just demonstrates how differently members can experience certain comments.

In my personal opinion, the "obnoxious" comment wasn't an insult, but it was rude, and in addition it could be said that it isn't in line with our Rules for Appropriate Debate, because we ask that members concentrate on the content of a post, and not make characterisations of the member who posted the comment. There's nothing in the rules that says we will remove or edit posts that don't follow this guideline, as long as the line to insults isn't crossed (and like I say, that line is in different places for different people).

So what do you all think? Should comments that make a discussion personal in a negative way be removed, even if they're technically not an insult? It's a real question - this kind of feedback is interesting and useful.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 05:35 PM   #80
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I think this just demonstrates how differently members can experience certain comments.

In my personal opinion, the "obnoxious" comment wasn't an insult, but it was rude, and in addition it could be said that it isn't in line with our Rules for Appropriate Debate, because we ask that members concentrate on the content of a post, and not make characterisations of the member who posted the comment. There's nothing in the rules that says we will remove or edit posts that don't follow this guideline, as long as the line to insults isn't crossed (and like I say, that line is in different places for different people).

So what do you all think? Should comments that make a discussion personal in a negative way be removed, even if they're technically not an insult? It's a real question - this kind of feedback is interesting and useful.
I don't think being told that one is being obnoxious is an insult or being rude. I am still trying to understand the mentality of a person that would see this as an insult and I cannot fathom how such a person manages to function in every day life.

"Stop being obnoxious" is merely criticism of someone's behaviour. If someone said that to me, than I would look back at my post and try to see what I had said that could have been construed as obnoxious. I would not be running around fuming, crying and reporting it. Franky, if someone reported somebody else for saying "stop being obnoxious" on a forum that I own, then I would ban the reporter to give them a chance to grow up.

If MR moderators were to start acting on these kind of posts, then we might as well stop conversing completely, because it makes me think of a bleak, dystopian vision that a book like 1984 paints, where emotions and human feelings are discouraged and censored.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:41 PM   #81
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Further proof that you can't even have a meaningful discussion about this subject here. Yeah, I'm fuming and crying over this. Not just making a simple point.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:46 PM   #82
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It's simple...as Apple has become more mainstream, more people have begun using Apple products. Prior to this, the Apple community was full of enthusiasts who appreciated the fact that, even though the user base was small as compared to the Windows World, Apple actually made the best products and was superior to all competition. The community was full of people appreciated not only Apple products but also the community, itself, which developed around the computers.

As Apple gained mainstream popularity through the iPod and the cultural breakthrough of the iMac, new users started coming in. Many of these people care little of the Apple community and only about the products. They also bring in a general attitude of entitlement with little to no loyalty, where criticism reigns as king. You can see this mainstreaming mirrored in the changes that have occurred in MacRumors community. The increase in trolling is also due to the fact that a subset of people enjoy trashing anything that is popular…regardless of whether it is justified or not.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 06:55 PM   #83
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Unfortunately, it's futile to wish for it to be any other way. You are probably just about to get told where you can go, I'd imagine.

If you want to make yourself feel better, pop over to the snake pits that are the DPReview forums. If you survive that with any semblance of faith left in your fellow man, then you might find returning to Mac Rumors is a slightly fluffier experience than you'd thought.
Ain't that the truth!
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 07:50 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Mac'nCheese View Post
Further proof that you can't even have a meaningful discussion about this subject here. Yeah, I'm fuming and crying over this. Not just making a simple point.
I don't know, I think the fact that we are able to talk about it at all is meaningful!

In and of itself a post that says "You're just being obnoxious" simply wouldn't be considered an insult by most of the mods here. It's clearly rude, and generally not helpful, but if we were to moderate it it would be due to the context that surrounds it, not just for that one line.

Believe it or not, we don't moderate the tone of posts as there is no rule against simply being rude. That's what I meant by not all rude posts are insults or trolling, in the absence of more context we'd probably not act on such a report beyond noting it as unnecessarily rude.

Several users including at least one mod and an admin have said that they don't find the statement to be a prima facie insult.

As annk suggested, how about telling us a bit more about why you think it should be treated as an insult beyond just saying that it's mind boggling that we disagree with you on this?

B
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 08:06 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
I don't understand the somewhat vitriolic nature of your responses.
I can only assure you that no vitriol was intended! As I said in my first response I think we agree, but that wasn't 100% clear to me from your original message which is why I was asking you to clarify it.

I quoted the three mentions of trolling in the MR rules and it matches up quite well with the urbandictionary version you posted, and also how we apply it behind the scenes.

The things I've said in the thread also coincide with the UD definitions of what shouldn't be considered trolling
Quote:
Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling;
So I really don't see where how we mod here simply isn't an application of the UD definition of trolling? Genuinely

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Old Dec 5, 2012, 10:54 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by balamw View Post
I can only assure you that no vitriol was intended! As I said in my first response I think we agree, but that wasn't 100% clear to me from your original message which is why I was asking you to clarify it.

I quoted the three mentions of trolling in the MR rules and it matches up quite well with the urbandictionary version you posted, and also how we apply it behind the scenes.

The things I've said in the thread also coincide with the UD definitions of what shouldn't be considered trolling

So I really don't see where how we mod here simply isn't an application of the UD definition of trolling? Genuinely

B


It was not. All I was doing was further adding to the debate by inserting a modern dictionary meaning for the word Troll.

You will, as I posted before, note that at no time did I single out any one forum or board either here or anywhere else. The slightly hostile nature of your response did puzzle me, but I guess you mis-understood my post.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 05:38 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
The slightly hostile nature of your response did puzzle me, but I guess you mis-understood my post.
As you did mine, as no hostility was intended. I was just trying to clarify who was doing the mis-classifying alluded to in your post.

B
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 05:46 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
What one may be perceived as "bashing" apple, another may perceive it as being objective between various platforms and the direction apple is going in.

It is possible to critique apple yet still enjoy their products. There are many here who have such a blind loyalty to apple, it is borderline annoying. I much prefer hearing from not these individuals, but those who utilize apple not out of this "blind loyalty", but rather as a preference that fits their current needs and have no qualms looking at other players in the industry.

It is the latter's opinion I care to hear.

Additionally, I have not really encountered those who actually always bash apple on these forums. Rather, I think it is those who think apple is the "end all be all" that gets offended at the notion of looking at other solutions and interpret it as bashing IMO.
Winnie and Calidude spring to mind. 100% negative.

I use the report button more and more lately. Sorry mods, must be annoying!
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 06:00 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
.
I use the report button more and more lately. Sorry mods, must be annoying!
Please continue to do so. That is how we expect the system to work!

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Old Dec 6, 2012, 07:36 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
I use the report button more and more lately. Sorry mods, must be annoying!
It's actually not annoying at all. If the post warrants our attention then report it. If you think it may have already been reported, report it anyway. If the same post is reported multiple times, the system bundles them together. We get to see that multiple members reported the post, but we only have to deal with it once.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 08:50 AM   #91
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ok that's cool.

I never want to be "that guy" who reports everything but if you guys don't mind I'll click the little button
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:03 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
Hi,
First off - before I say this, this isn't a complaint about moderation, it's about the community itself.
Hello.

Interventions are more difficult when served up by a team of one.

I've found that the community is a relatively intelligent community with a few members suffering from the dreaded common online brain disconnect.

Aren't there people in real life you ignore?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:14 AM   #93
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...

It's hard to hold a sensible discussion, or to argue your point in a mature way, when you're confronted with comments like "I love how you're back-pedalling, hard."...
This is the sort of concrete example we can really use.

We're constantly trying to define trolling in the context of situations that come up in threads, and since we can't have a rule about every type of comment it's immensely helpful to have this sort of example. Not only will it help the moderators be more specific about how we moderate what we/members perceive to be trolling, but examples are also something that can be linked to in the rules, to give members a clearer idea of what we expect.

(Again, please don't link to real posts - make the example at least quasi-fictitious, like this one ).

Keep 'em coming.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 02:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
It was not. All I was doing was further adding to the debate by inserting a modern dictionary meaning for the word Troll.

You will, as I posted before, note that at no time did I single out any one forum or board either here or anywhere else. The slightly hostile nature of your response did puzzle me, but I guess you mis-understood my post.
To me, this is where it can get tricky. Interpreting typed text will vary with mileage. I didn't see anything hostile at all in balamw's reply. This isn't to say Macman's take isn't valid, just his take & he expressed it without going off the deep end. Well done.

Some posts are blatantly rude, others approach a gray area. Sometimes you need to take a breath, walk away, go outside or whatever it is you normally do to give yourself a break before jumping to a conclusion and reacting. I think if we're honest, all of have had times where we react without thinking it through. We're human. Stuff happens.

In a place like this forum where we exchange info, ideas or offer help, rude posts seem unnecessary, often bordering on being ridiculous. Life's too short to get your knickers in a twist over a forum post. But if you see a post you feel is out of line, report it. The staff here can't catch every thing.

I don't know if the mods here get paid (I doubt it), but having been a mod at various fora, I know from experience it can be a thankless job. Usually it's done by people who genuinely care about a particular forum. From what's been explained in this thread, MR has good checks and balances in place, ie: transparency for mod/admin actions. Some places wouldn't even allow a discussion like this. The mandate would be "this is how's it's going to be, deal with it". At least here, they are open to suggestion .

When all else fails, ignore and moving on can be great tools. Trolls thrive on attention and personally, I'm not into feeding that affliction.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 04:35 PM   #95
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Perhaps we could implement some sort of psych quiz as a mandatory requirement before joining MacRumors that ultimately determines whether you like Apple products or not.

I agree with the OP on this one, one thing I can't stand is the non-apple products section that welcomes obvious Apple haters to the boards just so that those of us who truly love the products suffer their trolling/hate.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 05:34 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by FlatlinerG View Post
Perhaps we could implement some sort of psych quiz as a mandatory requirement before joining MacRumors that ultimately determines whether you like Apple products or not.

I agree with the OP on this one, one thing I can't stand is the non-apple products section that welcomes obvious Apple haters to the boards just so that those of us who truly love the products suffer their trolling/hate.
Quiz ? Nice try, will not work. And to like Apple products don't mean to dislike other products.

Second and as mentioned many time before: don't go in the "dark areas" of MR if you fear the shadows. Use the report button to get disturbing posts moved into the proper places (alternative, wasteland, trash).

I like the diversity&inclusion approach. Specially if I can decide what to include.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 07:05 PM   #97
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Quiz ? Nice try, will not work. And to like Apple products don't mean to dislike other products.

Second and as mentioned many time before: don't go in the "dark areas" of MR if you fear the shadows. Use the report button to get disturbing posts moved into the proper places (alternative, wasteland, trash).

I like the diversity&inclusion approach. Specially if I can decide what to include.
Not being entirely serious with that post by the way. What I meant from it is how these boards are getting progressively more and more flooded with apple haters.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 09:51 PM   #98
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Not being entirely serious with that post by the way. What I meant from it is how these boards are getting progressively more and more flooded with apple haters.
Eh, I'm not seeing it. You do get the occasional "olol apple sux ur all dum cuz u use baby ios ANNNNNDDROOOIIDD 4-EVA" posts from some random new guy around here, but they seem to get the boot pretty quickly more often than not.

...though not always.

On the other hand, there are some people here who might like Apple products, but tend to be a little critical of some of the things they do. They're not "Apple haters", though they tend to be labeled (rather unfairly) as such.

It's hard not to sound condescending when I say this, but you can like a company's products without necessarily liking everything that company does. I like my iPhone, love my iPad, and I'm thinking about getting either an iMac or an rMBP here in the very near future (damn halo effect). You could consider me a fan of Apple stuff, but I tend to argue against Apple when yet another one of the patent lawsuit threads pop up. Why? There's a thousand reasons why, and those thousand reasons aren't all necessarily focused on Apple specifically, rather the situation in general. But when I argue with someone who claims Apple did or didn't do this or that, and I end up being called an Apple Hater Google Fanboy because of it, I just have to wonder...

...why?

I'm not bashing the company as a whole, just calling them out on this one situation. Why treat it as a them or us situation? Why go screaming "THIS BOARD IS FILLED WITH APPLE HATERS LIKE YOU" simply because I'm not offering my complete 100% unwavering support for every single thing the company does and demonizing the competition?

No offense to anyone here, but some of the people who go around screaming about the unreasonable Apple Haters and the unabashed Google Lovers tend to be the equal opposite of the people they're rallying against. There's no big Android invasion going on here. Some of you just tend to take things a little too close to heart.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:14 PM   #99
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Not being entirely serious with that post by the way. What I meant from it is how these boards are getting progressively more and more flooded with apple haters.
I am not sure I follow entirely. Are you suggesting that if I dare to criticise Apple products, then I am a hater troll?

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Originally Posted by Mac'nCheese View Post
Further proof that you can't even have a meaningful discussion about this subject here. Yeah, I'm fuming and crying over this. Not just making a simple point.
And you still don't get why people call you obnoxious? Maybe a bit of self introspection might be in order?
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 11:21 PM   #100
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I am not sure I follow entirely. Are you suggesting that if I dare to criticise Apple products, then I am a hater troll?
The two are not one in the same. Those signing up just to troll are annoying. Those signing up who "hate" Apple products (are very immature) and are annoying, but for different reasons.
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