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Old Dec 7, 2012, 08:55 PM   #26
samiwas
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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Then get stuck with student debt and work at McDonalds with $50,000 (conservative estimate) in debt I guess.

Idk what else there is to say. Obviously there is a lot of value in an education, but it's not worth it if that education makes you a debt slave.
I will preface by saying that my parents did pay for my education, so that's a bonus. And also, I graduated 15 years ago, when things were different. But, even if I was on my own and had to pay every penny of school, my debt would have been only $14k-$15k.

That said, I was a theater major. Why? Because it's what I wanted to do with my life. I started as an engineering major by taking advice from my dad, who, like many here, was looking only at the job and money aspect of my future, and not whether or not I would hate getting out of bed every day. By the end of my freshman year, I hated the very thought of going into engineering.

In the end, I ended up in a career I love that gives me tons of flexibility in my life. I'm not locked into the 9-5 daily routine. I see new things every day and every week. When things are going well, I have my choice of job and can choose whether or not I want to work any given day. Hell, I've taken entire months off just to go have fun, or sit on my ass watching tv. And I'm nowhere near the top of my field currently.

Oh, and I make far more than my sister and until my step-brother went into law, more than him (maybe still...don't know). Both have "real jobs" and went through real majors from expensive colleges. I'm the only one in my family who has never had to receive financial assistance from parents since graduation.

Just because you don't get a real major doesn't mean you're destined for a life of financial servitude.

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However, when one is paying tens of thousands a year for school, not being a realist and looking at what exactly you get in return is naive imo. You have to treat college as an investment. The line of thinking proposed by some here that it shouldn't is what I would argue is a main reason for the student loan bubble. Too many kids are told to study what you are interested in and hope for the best. You can easily mitigate that concern by studying a field that is in demand in today's society.
Decent idea, but not everyone can study the same couple of fields and expect that to lead somewhere. It's always been thought that law was one of those fields, but in 2009, twice as many people passed bar exams as there were legal openings. That's not helpful for anyone. But should no one go into law because of that? Of course not. But not everyone should go to school for engineering or IT or finance...because then you just have too many engineers, IT guys, and financial wizards looking for jobs that aren't plentiful enough.

Also, what's in demand today might not be in demand in three years because everyone else did the same thing...now what?

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The real world simply does not work that way. You will have to pay back those loans. Why not put yourself in a position to do so easily eludes me. No one is saying you can't be a musician and do engineering or another STEM field. I just think that these "hobbies" should be that, "hobbies" and if they grow into more, great, if not, you have a backdrop.

Perhaps this is why I am an engineer because I have to think in terms of realities. But to each his own.
My advice would be that you don't go to a school that costs tens of thousands of dollars a year if you want to get a degree that doesn't lead to a top-dollar field. In my mind, it's completely silly to do so. I wouldn't go to Yale for a theatre degree (I went to a state school on resident status).

In the end, I thank myself every day for getting out of engineering and going the route I did. I could not see myself doing the daily grind. It's simply not for me. I'm not suggesting that someone should go to school and major in Njerep unless they have a locked in job dealing with Njerep. At least choose something halfway worthwhile. But, limiting it to only "in-demand" fields is also not the best decision, unless you have no real preference about what you do for the rest of your life.

To answer the OP (who will probably never read it anyway), I don't think there's anything any more that offers "plenty of jobs".
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 09:47 PM   #27
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dukebound I feel so sorry for you

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Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Then get stuck with student debt and work at McDonalds with $50,000 (conservative estimate) in debt I guess.

Idk what else there is to say. Obviously there is a lot of value in an education, but it's not worth it if that education makes you a debt slave.
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I agree

Education is great. And the premise stated that fields like engineering don't go beyond the how and into the why is frankly absurd imo as alot of the coursework and projects are exploring working theory and finding novel ways for solutions.

To me, there are many avenues to learning. They can be in the forms of individual, apprenticeships, hobbies, clubs, you name it.

However, when one is paying tens of thousands a year for school, not being a realist and looking at what exactly you get in return is naive imo. You have to treat college as an investment. The line of thinking proposed by some here that it shouldn't is what I would argue is a main reason for the student loan bubble. Too many kids are told to study what you are interested in and hope for the best. You can easily mitigate that concern by studying a field that is in demand in today's society.

The real world simply does not work that way. You will have to pay back those loans. Why not put yourself in a position to do so easily eludes me. No one is saying you can't be a musician and do engineering or another STEM field. I just think that these "hobbies" should be that, "hobbies" and if they grow into more, great, if not, you have a backdrop.

Perhaps this is why I am an engineer because I have to think in terms of realities. But to each his own.

All I know is all my friends who did engineering have no issue getting careers in their fields. Those who didn't aren't as lucky and many are working the same type of jobs they were when in hs but now saddled with loans. Sounds fun if you ask me.

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Why is that a source of relief? He, whom you quoted, recently started college himself.

I would argue going undecided is a quite costly mistake to make
Thanks for taking the initiative to think for people guys. You two obviously have it all figured out and should really make sure that the rest of the world understands how to make rational decisions involving their careers. Kudos!
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 09:58 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by einmusiker View Post
dukebound I feel so sorry for you

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Thanks for taking the initiative to think for people guys. You two obviously have it all figured out and should really make sure that the rest of the world understands how to make rational decisions involving their careers. Kudos!
Interesting you don't seem to want to say that to those who are of differing opinion.

I value the utility of the degree along with ones interest whereas others here seem to advocate that the utility doesn't matter in the least and one should pursue whatever education they wish, costs and potential employability be damned!

But don't feel sorry for me in the least. I love engineering, though must admit not always. However, I am not sure why people here think if one does engineering they will have a ****** career in terms of getting out of bed in the morning

I feel sorry for those who went to school and can't get employed and cant pay their loans off because of the discipline they chose. It is quite unfortunate and truely wish it weren't the case.

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Old Dec 7, 2012, 10:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
Interesting you don't seem to want to say that to those who are of differing opinion.

I value the utility of the degree along with ones interest whereas others here seem to advocate that the utility doesn't matter and one should pursue whatever education they wish costs be damned!

But don't feel sorry for me in the least lol. I love engineering. Not sure why people here think if one does engineering they will have a ****** career in terms of getting out of bed in the morning

I feel sorry for those who went to school and can't get employed because of the discipline they chose. It is quite unfortunate and truely wish it weren't the case.
At least they studied something they love or are actually interested in.

I certainly don't mean to generalize, but from reading MR for the past four years, it seems that a majority of engineers chose that path for three reasons;

1. Earning potential
2. Job Security
3. Aptitude for the work

Nothing is wrong with this. However, I think it's funny that engineers seem to feel the need to constantly explain why they chose the field and why they think the field is better than any other field.

IMO, there's a difference between doing something you're good at and doing something because you love it. The two are not synonymous.

I have the aptitude for many things. However, I enjoy doing a far smaller number of things. If I have to do something for the next thirty or forty years, I'd rather do something I love than something I've merely got the aptitude for.

In the long run, will it really matter that it took me an extra two or three years to find a job? No, not at all.
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 10:27 PM   #30
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Dukebound- My response was to your insinuation that studying music is only a "hobby" (your words) and that no one that studys music can find a job.

1. Earning potential
2. Job Security
3. Aptitude for the work

I studied music and in fact was paid by a top university, quite handsomely, to earn my masters degree and I have all three of the coveted things above that you feel only engineers enjoy. That is why I feel sorry for you...
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Old Dec 7, 2012, 10:34 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by einmusiker View Post
Dukebound- My response was to your insinuation that studying music is only a "hobby" (your words) and that no one that studys music can find a job.

1. Earning potential
2. Job Security
3. Aptitude for the work

I studied music and in fact was paid by a top university, quite handsomely, to earn my masters degree and I have all three of the coveted things above that you feel only engineers enjoy. That is why I feel sorry for you...
I never said there are no jobs for those that do the fine arts. But, would you say they are plentiful upon graduation? I have friends who majored in music and wanted to teach at a hs where there is literally only one position for one of his education and career goals.

Congrats on getting paid for your masters. I have the same situation going and it is pretty nice

Nowhere have I spoken in absolutes though

Meanwhile this thread is about jobs. There are projections for industries on hiring outlooks. Engineering is up there in terms of jobs outlook. Hence why I contributed to this thread

Last edited by dukebound85; Dec 8, 2012 at 12:16 AM.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 04:47 AM   #32
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I never said there are no jobs for those that do the fine arts. But, would you say they are plentiful upon graduation? I have friends who majored in music and wanted to teach at a hs where there is literally only one position for one of his education and career goals.
Someone with average talent is going to have a harder time finding employment, but those with the drive always will fall into something. Which is why if you love the fine arts, it's fine to major in it, but don't unless you do. That tenacity is going to be what takes you far, not the simple degree you have.

My bachelors is in psychology. My masters is in photography. From the outside, neither degree is specifically leaking money. But somehow, I've managed to turn a general studies-type degree and a "hobby" degree into a career that sends me all across the globe, a professor position that allows me incredible amounts of flexibility, the opportunity to be a featured speaker at events, exhibitions across both coasts, and a summer cottage home in Maine, all while living financially comfortable. And I'm only 31, just 3 years removed from grad school. In the end, your degree doesn't land you a career. It just helps point you in the direction you want your career to happen amongst.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 06:54 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by NathanMuir View Post
At least they studied something they love or are actually interested in.

I certainly don't mean to generalize, but from reading MR for the past four years, it seems that a majority of engineers chose that path for three reasons;

1. Earning potential
2. Job Security
3. Aptitude for the work

Nothing is wrong with this. However, I think it's funny that engineers seem to feel the need to constantly explain why they chose the field and why they think the field is better than any other field.

IMO, there's a difference between doing something you're good at and doing something because you love it. The two are not synonymous.

I have the aptitude for many things. However, I enjoy doing a far smaller number of things. If I have to do something for the next thirty or forty years, I'd rather do something I love than something I've merely got the aptitude for.

In the long run, will it really matter that it took me an extra two or three years to find a job? No, not at all.
I agree, there is no reason to study a degree that you have no interest in or only go into it because of the money. I went into CompSci and the people that were there because they thought it was a good choice vs something they enjoyed were evident. They bombed in the classes, dropped out or even if they somehow made it to graduation, they were the ones that struggled to find jobs.

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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
I never said there are no jobs for those that do the fine arts. But, would you say they are plentiful upon graduation? I have friends who majored in music and wanted to teach at a hs where there is literally only one position for one of his education and career goals.

Congrats on getting paid for your masters. I have the same situation going and it is pretty nice

Nowhere have I spoken in absolutes though

Meanwhile this thread is about jobs. There are projections for industries on hiring outlooks. Engineering is up there in terms of jobs outlook. Hence why I contributed to this thread
Someone shouldn't go into a major because they think a job will land at their feet. They should look into what type of career they want and then do whatever it takes to get into that career.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 08:30 AM   #34
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Well not everyone has to go to 4 year college/university and even if you do, it doesn't necessarily need to be for the reason of getting a job.
Then before you do that, you have to make sure that you are very financially stable and have a lot of time in order to go. I think college is great, don't get me wrong, but we're talking about the aggregate.

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Meaning some people may already have their career path but want to go to college 'just because'.
Which is a very small minority.

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There are vocational 'degrees' taught at community colleges (I'm not sure if there are really any good private vocational schools anymore, for-profit schools have taken over).
Ok

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Originally Posted by leenak View Post
I went to college for 5 years (tricky situation, switched majors, switched schools which ended up adding an extra year) and I left with $11k in debt. I went into college with an idea of going to med school but realized that I didn't want to spend 8-10 years in college so I changed majors to something I liked. Now granted, the something I liked happened to get me a foot in the door to my first job but it had very little to do with what I studied in college. My goal was to get an education though.

We shouldn't tell people lies that they'll be guaranteed a job after college and we shouldn't tell everyone that they should go to college. For many careers, you will need a college degree but for most of them, you don't need a specific college degree. For graduate school, you can usually have any undergraduate degree.

Anyway, I think college is great, I loved college, I just think people have the wrong expectations from it.
I can agree with this.

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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
I will preface by saying that my parents did pay for my education, so that's a bonus. And also, I graduated 15 years ago, when things were different. But, even if I was on my own and had to pay every penny of school, my debt would have been only $14k-$15k.
Yeah. Except now debt without aid will be $60,000 at least.

And you're parents paid for your college. I bet if they hadn't you may have a different perspective.

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That said, I was a theater major. Why? Because it's what I wanted to do with my life. I started as an engineering major by taking advice from my dad, who, like many here, was looking only at the job and money aspect of my future, and not whether or not I would hate getting out of bed every day. By the end of my freshman year, I hated the very thought of going into engineering.
I have no problem with majoring in theater or studying it, i encourage people to do something they like to do. What I don't encourage people to do, is go to college and study something they like to do if they are going to wind up a debt slave.

And FYI, engineering isn't all about the money. I actually had never really paid attention to how much money I was going to make, I just knew that I'd be able to find some sort of job when I graduated. And I love what I learn about.

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In the end, I ended up in a career I love that gives me tons of flexibility in my life. I'm not locked into the 9-5 daily routine. I see new things every day and every week. When things are going well, I have my choice of job and can choose whether or not I want to work any given day. Hell, I've taken entire months off just to go have fun, or sit on my ass watching tv. And I'm nowhere near the top of my field currently.
That's great. But you have to understand that you are the exception in this case, not the rule. If everybody followed your advice and went and studies theater, there would be too many students studying it, and not enough positions. It's simply reality.

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Oh, and I make far more than my sister and until my step-brother went into law, more than him (maybe still...don't know). Both have "real jobs" and went through real majors from expensive colleges. I'm the only one in my family who has never had to receive financial assistance from parents since graduation.
I've never claimed that majors other than engineering or whatever weren't real jobs.


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Just because you don't get a real major doesn't mean you're destined for a life of financial servitude.
In general, yes it does.

Go go school and get a 4 year undergrad as a sociology major, and you're going to be working to pay off those college loans for a very long time, while working for meager pay. It's not because sociology isn't important, it's because everybody and their best friend want to major in that because it's not "boring math and science". Unless you're really good or go to a top school, you shouldn't bother with such a degree.

It's the sad reality. But people can at least take solace in that they can learn, literally everything they need to learn in college, by simply reading books.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 08:57 AM   #35
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Go go school and get a 4 year undergrad as a sociology major, and you're going to be working to pay off those college loans for a very long time, while working for meager pay. It's not because sociology isn't important, it's because everybody and their best friend want to major in that because it's not "boring math and science". Unless you're really good or go to a top school, you shouldn't bother with such a degree.

It's the sad reality. But people can at least take solace in that they can learn, literally everything they need to learn in college, by simply reading books.

Many employers still require college degrees, even if they are offering 'meager' pay. I know many people who did a non-science degree in college and get a meager pay and they are happy. My parents didn't provide me any money for college, I found my own scholarships and grants. Now it may be that not only college costs have gone up but scholarships and grants have disappeared? I don't know. It does seem more challenging to finance college degrees these days based on anecdotal stories.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 05:24 PM   #36
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Many employers still require college degrees, even if they are offering 'meager' pay. I know many people who did a non-science degree in college and get a meager pay and they are happy. My parents didn't provide me any money for college, I found my own scholarships and grants. Now it may be that not only college costs have gone up but scholarships and grants have disappeared? I don't know. It does seem more challenging to finance college degrees these days based on anecdotal stories.
Grants have went down and costs have went up.
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Old Dec 8, 2012, 11:54 PM   #37
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If you haven't, take at least a cursory view through here.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/

It should give you an idea of what you may be in for once you graduate. Another thing, pick something you enjoy, but make sure it's an employable thing you enjoy. If it's also employable, look at the average salaries and see if that is in line with what you want out of life. You may love history, but then find out you'll have limited options of employment and that those *usually* don't pay what you want. It's better to know some of this up front.

Good luck.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 07:09 AM   #38
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It should give you an idea of what you may be in for once you graduate. Another thing, pick something you enjoy, but make sure it's an employable thing you enjoy. If it's also employable, look at the average salaries and see if that is in line with what you want out of life. You may love history, but then find out you'll have limited options of employment and that those *usually* don't pay what you want. It's better to know some of this up front.

Good luck.

That is the thing though, technically, very few undergrad degrees lead to a specific degree and thus would be considered employable. History, as an example, can lead to a ton of careers, just not one specific one but it often means a graduate degree is required as well or working towards the career in general. I know someone who majored in history and has a great job without a graduate degree related to his field. That is a pretty rare occurrence to have a job that aligns with your undergraduate degree. That is why it is better for people to figure out what they want to do and work towards that.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 09:06 AM   #39
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I can't think of ANY undergraduate degree these days that automatically lead to a job. Graduate school is practically imperative to finding a decent job.

I'll say iut again... if you just want a "job" go to technical/vocational school. Thats where the "jobs" are. If you want an "education" go to college and grad school.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 09:21 AM   #40
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I can't think of ANY undergraduate degree these days that automatically lead to a job. Graduate school is practically imperative to finding a decent job.

I'll say iut again... if you just want a "job" go to technical/vocational school. Thats where the "jobs" are. If you want an "education" go to college and grad school.
For engineering, going to graduate school right after undergrad can often times place you out of the job market.

No degree automatically leads to a job, but there are some which have greater prospects than others.

Graduate school is an absolute must for any social science or liberal arts major.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 09:26 AM   #41
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For engineering, going to graduate school right after undergrad can often times place you out of the job market.

No degree automatically leads to a job, but there are some which have greater prospects than others.

Graduate school is an absolute must for any social science or liberal arts major.
yeah but I'd rather sign up for my lobotomy than study engineering
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 09:27 AM   #42
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 09:46 AM   #43
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http://ch.tbe.taleo.net/CH15/ats/car...cws=40&rid=643

http://jobs.ebaycareers.com/us/new-y...6codes%253DIND

https://careers.peopleclick.com/care...MIUM_POST_SITE

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Old Dec 9, 2012, 09:56 AM   #44
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Graduate school is an absolute must for any social science or liberal arts major.
Absolutes don't work. I've known social science/liberal arts majors to get a job directly related to their field without a graduate degree but it is rare. It also depends on what they want to do. There are many careers that will accept someone with a social science/liberal arts degree but it takes research of the person to find what they want to do then make sure they take the steps to get there.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 11:35 AM   #45
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Just to clarify for this thread. The OP, Waloshin, is in Canada which changes things a bit.

First: when we say 'college' we mean a technical school - usually a technical college. In BC some of the technical colleges have recently been upgraded to 'university' status, but I don't think it's a national thing. When we talk about University, we mean university.

Two: Tuition in Canada at University is much cheaper than the US. It is entirely possible to go through and get a degree without incurring huge debts. A quick scan shows that for Canadians (you foreigners pay an international rate) most schools are charging in the $3000 to $6000 range (except for Quebec which starts at $2000). The most expensive public school was pushing $9000, with a couple of private schools going to close to $20,000.

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Honestly though, go for a career you would honestly like doing for the next 60 years of your life. ....
Research, live a little, get out there and see what you want to do in life. It is perfectly acceptable to enter college undecided.
I agree with your 2nd thought... you gotta live and get out there a bit, most people only work 40 years of their lives, and then usually they also work several to multiple jobs in their careers. So it's possible to find a job you want to do for 10 years, and then move on.

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Then get stuck with student debt and work at McDonalds with $50,000 (conservative estimate) in debt I guess. ...
Only in the US. In the rest of industrialized world government supports higher education since an educated population benefits everybody.

The OP is in Canada, so has some options.

@OP You want a paying job? Go into the trades... Electrician, plumbing, etc. Call a highly rated plumber up and make like you have a problem, and ask about their rates - and then their availability. You'll see why it is a good job.

Geriatrics. Anything to do with old people, and it doesn't have to be health related. There is a huge clump of people getting older. We need things to do, places to live. We need people to do the things we can't do for ourselves right now. We have time on our hands, and a good proportion of us have money.

As a weird example, but maybe it shows how geriatric care encompasses broad fields. Hand weaving is becoming booming hobby. The places that make looms, after decades of fighting off oblivion now can't make looms fast enough. Remember that women outlive men, so there are more of them. So, in retirement they are getting back into the hobbies they always wanted to do. So, right there one opportunity. Loom gadgets. But... there is more. Many of those women have lost dexterity in their hands and fingers. So, ergonomics is now a big factor. Looms are being computerized so that women with limited dexterity can still weave. There are people who will come out and warp up a loom for people who can't do it themselves.

I'm not suggesting you get into the loom business specifically, just using it as an example of an opportunity that is available due to demographics. My suggestion, if you want a job, is to look at the demographics in the next 5 to 25 years and figure out what jobs are going to be needed.

Good Luck.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 12:46 PM   #46
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Two: Tuition in Canada at University is much cheaper than the US. It is entirely possible to go through and get a degree without incurring huge debts. A quick scan shows that for Canadians (you foreigners pay an international rate) most schools are charging in the $3000 to $6000 range (except for Quebec which starts at $2000). The most expensive public school was pushing $9000, with a couple of private schools going to close to $20,000.
In Ontario most schools charge $5-6k per year. I'm at UofT and I pay $13k per year, but I'm in a specialized program (there are several that cost this much). This is not including any residence fees, which are around $6k from what I heard. International students also pay upwards of $25k.

Now more onto the topic that's being discussed. I've talked to a bunch of arts majors, poli sci majors in particular, who have no idea what they're doing or what they want to do when they finish school. A lot openly admit that they will not end up doing something related to their major. And they're not exactly passionate about poli sci, they're just there to get a degree - any degree it seems. I think this is what some posters mean when they say some degrees are a waste of money.

That's not to say I haven't met poli sci majors who know what they're doing. Recently I met a girl who's graduating this year in poli sci and she has an internship at a big bank for public relations and was talking about networking and what she wants to do in the future. She also said that her poli sci degree isn't related to what she's doing and wants to be doing but she chose that major because it was interesting and she needed a degree.

So I think it's fine to take something that interests you, but you will need a job after you graduate so you need to plan for that too otherwise you're wasting money and not going anywhere. I worked in retail during my 2nd year in uni and scanned a lot of resumes we got in and a lot were university graduates with english, poli sci, arts, psychology majors who were applying for minimum wage jobs, it's a little sad.

And as for the people who have a success story with their random major of interest, you are a minority and things were different back then. It is harder to land a job for most majors these days, let alone for a specialized one in arts. It may be what you want to do but if you can't break into the industry, you'll have to settle some some average paying job doing who knows what just to get by.


There is, however, one major with a 100% employment rate and it's actuarial science It is very math and stats intensive and not a lot of people can sit and just do that stuff. I have a family friend who's starting her undergrad next year in actuarial science in the best program in Canada and am excited to see how she does and where it takes her.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 02:49 PM   #47
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But not everyone should go to school for engineering or IT or finance...because then you just have too many engineers, IT guys, and financial wizards looking for jobs that aren't plentiful enough.
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That's great. But you have to understand that you are the exception in this case, not the rule. If everybody followed your advice and went and studies theater, there would be too many students studying it, and not enough positions. It's simply reality.
Interesting. I said exactly the same thing, but with regards to the "safe" majors. If everyone went the safe route, then suddenly you'd have too many people with that type of degree, and it would no longer be safe. There is no perfect degree that everyone should go for that will lead to future prosperity.

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I have no problem with majoring in theater or studying it, i encourage people to do something they like to do. What I don't encourage people to do, is go to college and study something they like to do if they are going to wind up a debt slave.
It doesn't matter what degree you get, you can always become a debt slave. In fact, most of the people I know who are debt slaves have "real" degrees. Because they went somewhere fancy to get them. Most people I know with "hobby" degrees are not loaded with debt, because they didn't choose an Ivy League school to get them from.

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Graduate school is an absolute must for any social science or liberal arts major.
Really? I know almost exactly no one in my field that has gone to graduate school, unless they want to be a teacher.

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For the record, I'm all for public education being funded by taxpayers. But not so that everybody goes to college so they can get a degree in gender studies.
This, I'm in full agreement with. Though, I think if higher education was opened up for all, you wouldn't have a glut of people going for useless degrees, but you would likely get a lot of those who want to go to college but can't afford it currently trying to expand their viability.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 06:50 PM   #48
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My belief is that you either know what you want to do, and get an education that gives you the credentials. Or... you get an education that teaches you to think critically, and teaches you how to learn. So... you get a PoliSci degree, and then decide to go into a teaching career. The PoliSci degree has taught you how to get through teachers college. It means you can concentrate on the content being taught, instead of how to just pass an exam.
Does poli sci actually teach people to think critically? It seems like people usually just complain about the crap essays they have to write (which may be too subjective to even properly evaluate how "critically" the person thought).

Also, I know a lot of people who want to go to teacher's college and there are separate programs for that. UofT calls them the Concurrent program when you pick a major within the program (ex. math, french etc) and do it for 5 years then you can go to teacher's college. It's more of a defined path.

I met some girls at a party in October and when I told them I was in Commerce they laughed and said "oh that's so hard and boring, I'm glad I don't have to work with numbers". Turns out they were all Art History majors I'm very curious what skills that major teaches people. They told me they had assignments where they would visit a museum and "evaluate" paintings to determine what the meaning might be. Don't see how this can bring any value to society let alone teach any applicable skills.
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 07:34 PM   #49
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Does poli sci actually teach people to think critically? It seems like people usually just complain about the crap essays they have to write (which may be too subjective to even properly evaluate how "critically" the person thought).
Yes. As it happens, I have a nephew who did PoliSci at UofT. He learned how to develop an idea, and how to present with a logical argument. Of course he complained about the crap essays.... doesn't mean he didn't learn how to think his ideas through, though.
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Also, I know a lot of people who want to go to teacher's college and there are separate programs for that. UofT calls them the Concurrent program when you pick a major within the program (ex. math, french etc) and do it for 5 years then you can go to teacher's college. It's more of a defined path.
It is interesting. We seem to be taking the education of our teachers much more seriously now. Not that long ago all needed to go into teaching was a BA.
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I'm very curious what skills that major teaches people. They told me they had assignments where they would visit a museum and "evaluate" paintings to determine what the meaning might be. Don't see how this can bring any value to society let alone teach any applicable skills.
It teaches them about art, and culture. A society without art is in very serious trouble. If you look at the great societies of the past, they all produced great art as well. Art nourishes the society in general, and helps it to accommodate all of its members. Including the Commerce Majors....
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Old Dec 9, 2012, 08:16 PM   #50
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Does poli sci actually teach people to think critically? It seems like people usually just complain about the crap essays they have to write (which may be too subjective to even properly evaluate how "critically" the person thought).

Also, I know a lot of people who want to go to teacher's college and there are separate programs for that. UofT calls them the Concurrent program when you pick a major within the program (ex. math, french etc) and do it for 5 years then you can go to teacher's college. It's more of a defined path.

I met some girls at a party in October and when I told them I was in Commerce they laughed and said "oh that's so hard and boring, I'm glad I don't have to work with numbers". Turns out they were all Art History majors I'm very curious what skills that major teaches people. They told me they had assignments where they would visit a museum and "evaluate" paintings to determine what the meaning might be. Don't see how this can bring any value to society let alone teach any applicable skills.
I've had the pleasure of working with numerous Art History majors who were archivists, curators, appraisers, etc...
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