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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:28 AM   #301
coolfactor
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I've had success with the few times that I've used Maps here in Canada. It has provided correct driving directions.

I'm tempted to ask why people are relying on GPS-based solutions, rather than just using good old-fashioned paper maps, but the world is changing so quickly, it's totally understandable. New roads, subdivisions, shopping centres... paper maps just can't keep up. Now Apple must figure out how to keep up, and an improved feedback-to-implementation process/timeline needs to be put into place, stat!

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Originally Posted by camman564 View Post
Wonder how many people actually used the "report a problem" feature to fix this one.

I had to use it once for a place that didn't exist in maps. It was there next time i checked.
I wonder if the "add a place" process is handled more quickly than the "move a place" process. Seems that both should involve validating the place before the mapping data is updated.

Seems that they could overlay Apple Maps on top of Google Maps and do a place-by-place comparison fairly quickly around the entire world. A week later and they would've covered thousands of places.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:30 AM   #302
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What's strange to me is that the gps on my car and my portable gps hasn't ever been that off. How come every other gps I owned worked fine but apple's is so faulty? Didn't they buy their maps from some reputable gps manufacturer?

Apple should stick to what they do best. I bet they are going to make a great tv. Facetime on that thing will be perfect. No need to start manufacturing clothing or feminine products or maps for that matter.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:35 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by reefoid View Post
I don't live in the U.S. so this means nothing to me so please explain. The onus is on you to explain to us, you're the one that's come up with this weird idea.
Just do the searches. You don't have to live in the U.S. to question why the changes in recommended routes along what essentially is the same route. I'm saying that advertising impacts routes shown, even if not the number one route shown. That's google's business. It's not a complicated business model. Google provides consumers with free products (search and maps). Google sells business advertising. Google also offers small businesses free ad placements, and value of free increases to business, and later to google, if more people respond to ads. In the end, there is no free lunch:

http://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6...on-Google.aspx
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:42 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by haruhiko View Post
Some people explained that Apple needs "crowd sourcing" to improve its Maps app.

Well, I have reported a wrong POI for ~10 times already and it's still there after a few months.
So why hasn't there been a massive push to Waze as that's exactly what you're suggesting?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:47 AM   #305
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Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Apple!!
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:55 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by mccldwll View Post
Just do the searches. You don't have to live in the U.S. to question why the changes in recommended routes along what essentially is the same route. I'm saying that advertising impacts routes shown, even if not the number one route shown. That's google's business. It's not a complicated business model. Google provides consumers with free products (search and maps). Google sells business advertising. Google also offers small businesses free ad placements, and value of free increases to business, and later to google, if more people respond to ads. In the end, there is no free lunch:

http://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6...on-Google.aspx
So it is only you with a tin foil and nothing more.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 11:58 AM   #307
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Man I was pissed when Apple Maps guided me to a Subway that didn't exist. Guess I'm lucky.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:00 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by mccldwll View Post
Just do the searches. You don't have to live in the U.S. to question why the changes in recommended routes along what essentially is the same route. I'm saying that advertising impacts routes shown, even if not the number one route shown. That's google's business. It's not a complicated business model. Google provides consumers with free products (search and maps). Google sells business advertising. Google also offers small businesses free ad placements, and value of free increases to business, and later to google, if more people respond to ads. In the end, there is no free lunch:

http://blog.hubspot.com/blog/tabid/6...on-Google.aspx
What on earth are you talking about? I just did that and both routes are I-70 to US-24 into Colorado Springs. The only difference between the two is that from St. Louis, you're on I-70 for a lot longer.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:03 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by mrxak View Post
Ars Technica had an article a while back explaining just how difficult it actually is to map the whole world. ...

What it comes down to, is humans sanity-checking the output of the machine, because garbage in, garbage out. Apple needs to do this at their end, but the world is a very big place. I remember how bad Google Maps was when it was new, and other online maps before that. It's going to take a huge amount of man hours to get this done. At the same time, people using the service need to do their own sanity-checking. If something doesn't seem right, trust the signs on the road, not your phone. The map data your phone is using might be decades or a century old, approximately transformed onto a false geometry, and stitched together with a data set using a different reference point.
Absolutely agreed with the bolded part of your post. And while I understand the complexities of mapping 3D surfaces to 2D planes and all that (and appreciate your detailed explanation), my problem is that this surely isn't the first time it's been done. Is Apple forced to start from a blank slate and build their maps from scratch using survey data points? Has the same data not already been used to generate paper maps? Or are those paper maps also grossly incorrect?

Again, I'm not saying Apple should copy Google Maps or mine their whole database or anything like that, but a quick comparison sanity check would quickly show if your maps are showing a city to be 70 miles off from what everyone else's maps are saying.

As a software developer if I was testing these maps, even if they were generated from scratch, this is how I would do it. I would generate a series of random points -- cities, landmarks, major street corners -- and determine their coordinates from my maps, then compare with coordinates generated using other mapping sources. Survey data, paper maps, Google, Navteq, satellite imagery, whatever. As long as they were reasonably comparable, I would be happy.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:17 PM   #310
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luckily there wasnt a river or a lake in the middle of that route on apple map, should we have expected our brothers in Australia to have been found drowning cause the maps told them this is where they are supposed to go ?

Ok, I agree, apple maps stinks and the worst service provided by apple, but come on people, going into a mud road and a park away from civilization cause the maps app told you to do so ????

I wonder how much competitors (google ?) invested on this negative media...
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:29 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by tmofee View Post
It really is that bad. I tried using it for swan hill once (know where it is from here, but looking for a particular office ) and the moment I saw that apple maps had the place completely off course, I just laughed and opened the Tom Tom app,,,,
So, TT had it correct? Whatever you were looking for?

What on earth did they sell Apple? So far I've found TT and Apple to be identical, but that's just the map, I don't use POIs much. I tend to look things up online, not in a map app.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elchemor View Post
luckily there wasnt a river or a lake in the middle of that route on apple map, should we have expected our brothers in Australia to have been found drowning cause the maps told them this is where they are supposed to go ?

Ok, I agree, apple maps stinks and the worst service provided by apple, but come on people, going into a mud road and a park away from civilization cause the maps app told you to do so ????

I wonder how much competitors (google ?) invested on this negative media...
A few years ago the Google-sourced map brought me to a lonely dirt road (not even houses) instead of a tourist site. Had to find my own way to where I was going. You ought to be able to trust your map. Finding a tiny little town in a massively rural area...how are you going to know which dirt road leads there and which doesn't? That's why you pulled out a map.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:34 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Michael Scrip View Post
But the biggest thing that bothers me... there are no exit numbers on interstate exits!

I actually love Apple's vector maps and how nice it is to scroll, pinch and zoom to explore an area. But it doesn't show exit numbers! Why oh why?!?!
Agreed. I liked having the ability to see exit numbers.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:51 PM   #313
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If Maps told you to drive off a cliff...

would you?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 12:58 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elchemor View Post
luckily there wasnt a river or a lake in the middle of that route on apple map, should we have expected our brothers in Australia to have been found drowning cause the maps told them this is where they are supposed to go ?

Ok, I agree, apple maps stinks and the worst service provided by apple, but come on people, going into a mud road and a park away from civilization cause the maps app told you to do so ????

I wonder how much competitors (google ?) invested on this negative media...
People trying to reach a city(which in on a highway) near a national park, end up 46 miles away in deep wilderness without any facilities and with temps close to 115F is a life and death scenario. It could happen to us in our UT/MO/CA towns close to national parks.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:01 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by tdmd View Post
as much as i like apple, apple maps ABSOLUTELY SUCKS. it might be good for where you're at, but once you start traveling, you will realize how HORRIBLE it is. It has gotten me lost at least 5 times already. So bad that I carry my Garmin with me instead of using the iPhone for directions.
This seems sort of dumb, why not download the excellent and free Mapquest app for your iPhone?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:04 PM   #316
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Yep, Apple Maps is pretty much total poop (as someone so eloquently put it). It has gotten me lost once by directing me to an address entirely in another zip code area than the one I typed in. It was only wrong by about a mile or two but it's still annoying, and I'll most likely not use it for navigation purposes again for a long time.
Also, the satellite images in my city (which is not a small, obscure city but the fourth largest in the country) are basically useless because of clouds. In fact, they are so obscured by clouds that it's in effect black & white images I'm seeing. And it's like this in much of Denmark.

The software itself is pretty nice and the Maps are pretty, but the map data and the satellite images are so bad it's ridiculous.

I'll stick with Navigon, which has yet to fail me, for my navigation purposes.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:09 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by ImAlwaysRight View Post
would you?
Only if Steve said so.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:16 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by bradgfromboo View Post
Are you recommending that Apple illegally harvest google's data to repair their own database? LOL please do ... When a disgruntled employee quits and turns them in it will be the end of them.

In case you did not know, what you are recommending is so illegal its not even funny...genius...
Of course its illegal. But illegal things go on daily in the business world. The key is trying not to get caught. As long as everything is word of mouth and no paper trail is creating, Google will have a HARD time trying to prove that Apple did indeed copy them. A single disgruntled employee's word will just be discounted as heresy. Ask that one Goldman Sach's employee who exposed what I believe is the true attitude internally of the company how that worked for him... lol
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:21 PM   #319
mccldwll
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Originally Posted by yg17 View Post
What on earth are you talking about? I just did that and both routes are I-70 to US-24 into Colorado Springs. The only difference between the two is that from St. Louis, you're on I-70 for a lot longer.
Yes. I-70 to US-24 is #1 route on both searches. However, look at the alternate routes for the two searches. Why the variance/change?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:27 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by SlCKB0Y View Post
Not really. Google "map copyright trap". It's a very common mechanism used in cartography to detect copyright infringements.
However, since Apple Maps (for the most part) has and pays for maps. They don't need to do a 1:1 copy of their information. All they need is such a small part that would never be traceable.

When someone submits an error report on a POI or other part of the map - compare to Google Maps result for same POI or map issue. This way you're just copying the parts you have "wrong".
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:27 PM   #321
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would you?
A fanboy should.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 01:40 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by katewes View Post
Apple is living in a distortion field where they think Apple is invulnerable. I suspect that most Apple employees weren't around in the bad old days when the company was a few weeks away from bankruptcy. Apple staff seriously cannot see the possibility of Android taking over the dominant place in smartphones and tablets. Thus, Apple is living dangerously.

In a recent interview, Tim Cook said that Apple could avoid Sony's spiral by keeping focused on a core area of excellence. Sure, Tim, if that was Sony's one and only frailty. There was a time in the late 90's where Sony had the slogan, "because it's a SONY". That was the era when consumers were willing to pay a bit extra just to get a Sony ... me included. Apple is there now, and it cannot see itself losing that aura. Hence, Apple is now in the danger zone. The worst way to navigate the danger zone is sheer arrogance to the point of blindness. Apple is exhibiting arrogance and blindness in bucket loads.

Baked into Apple's DNA is Steve Jobs' mantra that Apple does not listen to customers - "We don't do customer research .. we see what customers don't see etc etc". Well, I would say that every mega titan corporation that ever was the darling of its era went through a purple patch where they had a string of products that captured the market. But history shows that titans do fall.

The sheer arrogance of Apple thinking that it can focus on consumer product features, and thumb its nose at professional and corporate users. Take for instance, the issue of matte anti-glare screens. Probably a minority -- a large one though -- mostly in the professional areas, but also ordinary users who suffer from eye strain. Apple, fro 6 years, has thumbed its nose at those segment who need such products.

Then there's the removal of key features, ostensibly because the majority of consumers don't use that feature. Key example, the removal of colored icons from the left column in the Finder. Apple could have had an option in Preferences to show or hide the colors, but, no, Apple shafts those users, and focuses on the consumer majority. There are some users, who rely in their computers to get work done, and value speed over visual art. Don't tell me that the monochrome look appears nicer, because I AGREE, it does look cool, but sometimes I need to work fast, and having to read the writing in the Finder is slower than having colors to visual cues.

See this expose from a software developer on why the removal of color hinders usability. http://www.literatureandlatte.com/blog/?p=271

Every aspect of Apple's approach reeks of Steve Jobs' arrogance that's been hard baked into Apple's DNA. If you don't believe that a $120 billion cash company can be reduced to dust in 2 decades, first (1) read some history books, and (2) let's bookmark this for 2 decades and see who's right. Errr, anyone remember Digital Corporation, the Sony dominance of the 80's and 90's, Netscape etc.

Apple's penchant for crippling the upgradeability of its products, forcing you to buy new hardware, rather than extending the lifespan by a few years -- all that is going to come back reaped as a whirlwind. So many years ago now, Apple loyalist used to rave about how Apple computers last longer than PC's, and that the higher cost was actually an investment. Now, look at iFixit's rant from their disgust at how what used to be upgradeable components are either soldered, GLUED, or positioned behind major components so you cannot upgrade the memory and hard drive. How many of you, given the choice of having a smooth rear panel for the iMac, versus a removable panel to replace RAM and hard drives, would choose the non-upgrade path. Sure, there's the argument that 90% of people don't replace the RAM and hard drives -- but that's because Apple makes you jump through hoops to open up. If it was a simple matter of opening up a window, and inserting the new RAM or hard drive, more people would. I raise these points as evidence of Apple's sheer arrogance of dictating its agenda to consumers, with the vindictive knowledge that people will continue to buy Apple's products irrespective. Well, that's the sort of attitude that form the seeds of destruction where a titan corporation can disintegrate over a decade or two.

I speak this bitter disappointment in Apple, as a user who has been loyal to Apple since the mid 80's. I speak these words, not as an outside critic, but as someone who's grown up with Apple products all my life, who's been a Mac evangelist, someone who felt Apple was a special part of my life. Only to see it evolve into a corporate huckster, where the first decision is whether any step is going to make more money. Apple is so nice about it, couching it words such as, "we can't please everyone" and "we need to be focused" -- but how many of you would argue that that's just spin for: "If we can't make buckets of money out of you, then we're not going to make stuff for you". Without thinking, you can argue that any corporation's first role is to make money, but I'd argue that when a company gets to a certain market dominance, where people rely on its products, there comes a responsibility to supply certain minority niches that don't necessarily make tons of profit. I come back to the matte, anti-glare issue. Let's get this straight, not everyone needs matte, anti-glare screens. Not every likes them. Not every sees any need for them. Great. But many people do. Unlike DVD's - where you can carry an external DVD drive, people who need matte screens can't substitute them. It would be fine if Apple made the Mac Mini as powerful as the iMac, but, no, the Mac Mini is made slower than the iMac, so that people who are forced to buy non-Apple matte screens are restricted to using a slower Mac Mini.

All I'm saying is that, inspite of the $120 million cash mattress that Apple sleeps on, there are in 2012 the seeds of Apple's destruction clearly shown in its corporate arrogance. I grieve, because, over my lifetime, Apple has been one of my loves.

"Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
An incredibly good rant, you're spot on with every single thing you say. It may be incredibly corny, but thank you for expressing what everyone feels in words.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:00 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by devilstrider View Post
So people settling lost is a good test?

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Image

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Cannot stop laughing! Thank you
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:00 PM   #324
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Ok, I agree, apple maps stinks and the worst service provided by apple, but come on people, going into a mud road and a park away from civilization cause the maps app told you to do so ????
Well, I have not been to the area in question (or anywhere in Australia) but from what I can gather from other posts, the correct route to this city does involve driving through the wilderness. So it's not a question of saying "hmm, shouldn't the road to this city be a nice big expressway instead of this back country dirt road?" it's more like "I hope I'm on the right back country dirt road" -- which might not be obvious depending on how well the signage is out there!

I have been on the receiving end of bad online map data from Google Maps. It took me to a rickety old museum in downtown Nowhereville instead of the Hampton Inn that I was asking for. But that's far from having the entire city in the wrong place.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:21 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by yakapo View Post
What's strange to me is that the gps on my car and my portable gps hasn't ever been that off. How come every other gps I owned worked fine but apple's is so faulty? Didn't they buy their maps from some reputable gps manufacturer?
Simple: When you type in "Mildura", it doesn't take you to the city of Mildura, but to the center of the Mildura local government area. The exact, precise location of a place that you didn't want to go to. Now if you have an IQ slightly over 70, you type in Mildura, zoom in on the area, and find that it is in the middle of nowhere, you figure out that there is something wrong. So you type in "Mildura City", which finds seven different shops with "City" in their name located exactly in Mildura. And getting driving instructions from Sydney to Mildura seems to get you there correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by notjustjay View Post
I have been on the receiving end of bad online map data from Google Maps. It took me to a rickety old museum in downtown Nowhereville instead of the Hampton Inn that I was asking for. But that's far from having the entire city in the wrong place.
The city is in the right place. But there is a government district named Mildura as well. On the other hand, if you click on "Directions", enter "Sydney" and "Mildura", it will take you, well, in the centre of a large lawn in the middle of Mildura. Hope you don't drive over the grass.

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