FTC Investigating Kids Apps Over Privacy Concerns

Renzatic · Dec 10, 2012

LagunaSol said:
I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.

A goodly portion of people making apps today probably started their professional lives trying to figure stuff out on a Commodore 64.

They had something that's a bit lacking in these days of siloed apps and restricted access to the hardware. Sometimes, I think a little too much has been sacrificed for the "it just works" mentality. Yeah, sure. It works fine without any hassle. Most of the time that's all we want. But you can't play with things anymore.

morespce54 · Dec 10, 2012

Small White Car said:
When all these app stores started gaining popularity in 2008 and 2009 they called it a gold rush for developers.

Predictably, the gold rush has led to a sort of wild west where there are very few sheriffs.

Ah well, like all other forms of media, eventually apps will all be consolidated and bought up by Disney and Viacom and that will solve that.

Right. Then, children data-mining will be "legal" (read: bless by pretty much all institutions!)

LagunaSol · Dec 10, 2012

7enderbender said:
Pretty much, albeit very simplified. I thought it was something between hilariousness and scary that the big scandal with Grand Auto Theft or whatever was that there were some titties and prostitutes build in somewhere - yet nobody seemed to be bothered by the underlying theme. But even that's not even the point really. To me the question is always: you have nothing better to do?

Addiction to anything is a bad thing. But I think addiction to porn is a far more destructive condition than addiction to gaming.

bogatyr · Dec 10, 2012

7enderbender said:
Math-games for lazy parents and teachers? Take your pick.

God forbid a parent augment their child's math learning with some games to make it at least somewhat entertaining.

macs4nw · Dec 10, 2012

dankly said:
Google data mining children....nothing wrong with that!
Poor google get such a hard time for such a credible organization.

I'd say to GOOGLE as well as to APPLE, a more thorough check of those submitted Apps is in order.

gotluck said:
This article is not about Google.
Good reading comprehension!

Small White Car said:
When all these app stores started gaining popularity in 2008 and 2009 they called it a gold rush for developers. Predictably, the gold rush has led to a sort of wild west where there are very few sheriffs.....

Small White Car said:
So I guess you just read the first 20 words and decided to take a break? Man, are you gonna be surprised when you come back with your snack and start back with the 21st word in the article.

We can argue about who's responsible, APP store/Google Play marketplace or the APP developers, but more importantly, where is all that Data going? Isn't it kind of underhanded to prey on the innocence of children to obtain all that info? Shame on those developers involved in these shady practices.

gmanist1000 · Dec 10, 2012

LagunaSol said:
Addiction to anything is a bad thing. But I think addiction to porn is a far more destructive condition than addiction to gaming.

An addiction to MacRumors is bad?

ChristianVirtual · Dec 10, 2012

WestonHarvey1 said:
7enderbender said:

They want to play computer games then they need to learn how to program them for themselves.

Click to expand...

Now that's an idea I can get behind.

That remind me to an early argument in school (80th of last century) that every developer should write its own compiler ... It is for sure a learning experience; which can be fun. Same for games.

Renzatic said:
to figure stuff out on a Commodore 64.

They had something that's a bit lacking in these days of siloed apps and restricted access to the hardware. Sometimes, I think a little too much has been sacrificed for the "it just works" mentality. Yeah, sure. It works fine without any hassle. Most of the time that's all we want. But you can't play with things anymore.

Good ol' days. Peek and Poke to create sprites and ADSR waves. Tweaking the firmware of the 1541 ... Non of those apps would ever make it through the approval process these days.

7enderbender · Dec 10, 2012

bogatyr said:
God forbid a parent augment their child's math learning with some games to make it at least somewhat entertaining.

And that's what scares me for our future. Gee, actually talk to them? Worse: actually learn something about each other and the subject? Ever thought that math or really any subject can actually be quite entertaining if not ruined by the school system?

And who are we kidding here about "augmenting" anything. This stuff is about busy parents where all parents work all day to pay for the second car, the mortgage for the big house that houses the various flat screen TVs and the granite counter top while the kids are spending more than half their lives in prison-like schools and when they finally come home they're plopped in front of stupid games or movies because everyone is exhausted. I know this is overly generalizing and I don't think it's driven by bad intentions. But this has become such a part of our culture it's borderline insane. When is the last time anyone checked how the Western world is on average doing in some of the basic skill-sets, math and otherwise? Not looking so pretty. And Dora La Genia en math ain't gonna fix that, i guarantee you.

phillipduran · Dec 10, 2012

gotluck said:
This article is not about Google.
Good reading comprehension!

The linked report Mobile Apps for Kids: Disclosures Still Not Making the Grade, is partly about the Google app store. The report points out the app stores are included in the list of parties the FTC urges to address the privacy disclosure issues.

Would that be good reading comprehension on my part?

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Renzatic said:
I glanced through the AP link, and the closest anyone comes to mentioning Google is...

Unless you think the phrase "privacy concerns" is an automatic bash against Google specifically, the article is more about the apps in general on both platforms.

The google app store is mentioned by the FTC in the linked report.

7enderbender · Dec 10, 2012

LagunaSol said:
Addiction to anything is a bad thing. But I think addiction to porn is a far more destructive condition than addiction to gaming.

I would agree that any addiction is very problematic. Which one is worse is difficult to decide. If there are signs that anyone has problems to self-regulate anything then it's maybe time to say something - or do something if it's a child. And I understand that "banning" stuff in general can be an issue. If you don't allow chocolate or something chances are your kids may find other ways behind your back. I get that. I just have this aversion to gaming. I've seen pretty bad things happening to people who had completely free access to this from a very early age. I'm pretty convinced that at least for some people gaming messes with their brain chemistry and physiology.

phillipduran · Dec 10, 2012

7enderbender said:
This is not a regulatory issue but a parenting issue...

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Don't go preaching your personal responsibility ideas in this time and age. That era has passed.

skinned66 · Dec 10, 2012

Since this involves "the children" I expect careful reasoning and no overreactions by anyone involved whatsoever.

paulbennett95 · Dec 10, 2012

LagunaSol said:
Parents are supposed to sift through app code to determine whether any data collection is being done?

Yes. People forget that they have to do things themselves rather than rely on the government to do it..

mabhatter · Dec 10, 2012

dankly said:
Google data mining children....nothing wrong with that!
Poor google get such a hard time for such a credible organization.

According to most schools, kids don't HAVE a right to privacy.

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The article had me going until the mentioned suing Delta over their on app privacy... The FTC suing an AIRLINE because their mobile app collects three pieces of information and doesn't tell you???? Really that's a big problem... I mean ACTUALLY paying agents to molest people and viewing customers with clothes removing radar would seem to be a bigger issue than collecting my phone number... The amount of REAL personal info you have to turn over to USE their services is far more invasive that a mobile app.

This is "look busy" work for privacy groups that doesn't actually mean anything. Nothing more.

WilliamDu · Dec 10, 2012

Why allow data mining in the first place?

I would like an explanation of why software bought for either education or entertainment purposes should provide the author thereof any right to include routines initiating transfer of information about the user to anyone, the author, or as seems to be the case, third parties that gather data about children for any use, commercial or otherwise.
This practice should be totally prohibited.
The purchase of applications should provide the product purchased, without spy inclusions to extract user data for ANY purpose.
When you buy a pair of shoes, would you want your shoe size or any other personal data automatically provided to the maker of the shoes?
This practice is extremely aggressive and objectionable.
It's nice for the FTC to investigate and report, but the results should generate immediate action to censor the company in highly financial terms, sufficient to put them out of business for violations of privacy.

The rant above is on the way to my Federal reps and Senators. A more useful and possibly effective process than countless threads here.

skinned66 · Dec 10, 2012

ChristianJapan said:
I hope they also request Apple to make GameCenter controllable under parental control and avoid these permanent login requests we have to cancel. I don't want my kid using GC at all.

You can disable multiplayer games and adding friends for GC in iOS 6. What else is left that concerns you?

Or is it an older device where this is not available?

Papajohn56 · Dec 10, 2012

The FTC has been overstepping their bounds quite frequently as of late.

bogatyr · Dec 10, 2012

7enderbender said:
And that's what scares me for our future. Gee, actually talk to them? Worse: actually learn something about each other and the subject? Ever thought that math or really any subject can actually be quite entertaining if not ruined by the school system?

And who are we kidding here about "augmenting" anything. This stuff is about busy parents where all parents work all day to pay for the second car, the mortgage for the big house that houses the various flat screen TVs and the granite counter top while the kids are spending more than half their lives in prison-like schools and when they finally come home they're plopped in front of stupid games or movies because everyone is exhausted. I know this is overly generalizing and I don't think it's driven by bad intentions. But this has become such a part of our culture it's borderline insane. When is the last time anyone checked how the Western world is on average doing in some of the basic skill-sets, math and otherwise? Not looking so pretty. And Dora La Genia en math ain't gonna fix that, i guarantee you.

Yeah, but we also don't have 24/7 to educate our kids. Spend a couple hours a night teaching them letters and numbers, but we still have to work 9 hours, commute, cook, clean etc. So yes, augment because I'd rather my child spend time learning through games than vegging out in front of the TV or playing with Barbie dolls.

LethalWolfe · Dec 10, 2012

7enderbender said:
I just have this aversion to gaming. I've seen pretty bad things happening to people who had completely free access to this from a very early age. I'm pretty convinced that at least for some people gaming messes with their brain chemistry and physiology.

Have you considered that those people already had a problem and a symptom of the problem was excessively playing video games? The first generation that can't remember a time without video games is hitting their mid-30's now (and the average age of a game is late 30's) so I think it would be very apparent if playing video games was as detrimental as you think it is. There have been a number of studies done about video games and child development (mostly centered around violence) and pretty much they only conclusion they end up with is that children with violent tendencies usually enjoy playing violent video games. Not really an Earth shattering discovery, IMO.

Tech198 · Dec 10, 2012

So. What does this investigation prove?

Every phone and app, contain some privacy stuff unique to the device its installed on, let alone in-app purchases lead to more privacy issues anyway.

so what?? Thats normal. You con't like it?? Turn privacy settings for that app off (if available) or don't use the app.

KdParker · Dec 10, 2012

While they are at it, they look at the in app purchases for kids games.

The default for these games should be off IMHO.

ChristianVirtual · Dec 10, 2012

skinned66 said:
You can disable multiplayer games and adding friends for GC in iOS 6. What else is left that concerns you?

Or is it an older device where this is not available?

All devices on iOS 6.x; I don't want to login and bothered with GC at all. The setting you mentioned are done; but still I get asked for the GC login each time. And for a device for my kid I just don't want that. Pressing cancel is not that big effort; it's more the mindset that I get kind of pressed to use it. Still resists though.

Renzatic · Dec 10, 2012

phillipduran said:
The google app store is mentioned by the FTC in the linked report.

So is the Apple app store, what's your point?

It doesn't change the fact the article isn't about Google specifically, rather about the mobile app landscape in general. I haven't read to the bottom of the AP article yet, but from the first 2/3rds, neither Google nor Apple are singled out as being better or worse than the other.

So why treat it as such here? "olol, just Google being evil", they said, as Apple quietly does the same thing.

Thunderhawks · Dec 10, 2012

Renzatic said:
Man, this thread went from zero to stupid faster than usual...

About a non issue IMHO

Obviously it will be fixed. Most consumers click on any button to make it go away until they get what they want to buy.

No different there.

Wouldn't be surprised if over 50% let the kids shop, who realy don't care about the legal mambo jambo.

nagromme · Dec 10, 2012

I wouldnt worrymost companies are honest and use only anonymous data. So all they know is how many children are at a given place and time, what their ages and genders are, what their likes and dislikes are, and maybe first names. They dont track last names. So we're good!

FTC Investigating Kids Apps Over Privacy Concerns

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