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Old Dec 11, 2012, 01:40 AM   #26
charlituna
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Originally Posted by cnymike View Post
And you're not a DJ. I am.

I have over 8,000 CD's and only about 2000 of them have been ripped. So for me an Optical Drive is an essential piece of equipment. I also make a lot of DVD's for my videography projects. And I do have an external optical drive. I want an internal drive for many reasons.
Truth of the matter is that you aren't getting one with an iMac unless you grab a refurb 2011. Apple is done with internals for the iMac. So if that is a deal breaker, grab that refurb fast.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 02:41 AM   #27
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Have you considered an external optical drive. Lots of good ones out there. I have an external optical drive, plus the one in my iMac because I need it. Do a lot of dvd burning. External is actually easier to use as I can place it anywhere I please.
These are actually better. They can be faster and have features like laser scribe for placing labels on the disc.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:32 AM   #28
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I was one of the first 4000 people to buy an Apple ][ back in 1978 and have owned countless Macs since then. My main computer is currently a MacBook Air and I love it. Doesn't bother me a bit that is thin and doesn't have an internal DVD drive.

I don't know much about the new iMacs and don't really have an opinion on them. However I don't understand Apple's obsession with "thin stuff". I get it in the case of the iPhone, iPad and laptops. But I really don't get it for a desktop machine like an iMac. I'll admit it does look cool though.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:42 AM   #29
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Yes, their design decisions were based primarily on ensuring that they will get rid of you as a customer.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:47 AM   #30
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Its odd that you need to have an internal drive.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:24 AM   #31
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I'm sitting here with the new iMac 21.5'. It is an elegant device. My old iMac 24' was nice but too large for my desk, or my needs. It had 4 GB memory and I never needed that much since I don't keep a lot of programs running at one time. I last used my CD drive a couple of years ago and really see little need for it now. I have an older Le Cie cd burner around somewhere if I need it. The fusion drive screams and the 8 GB of memory is plenty. I have no need to crack into this device. This forum's posts are mostly from tekkies that need to change things which is great, but they are the minority. Most people, such as I, buy Macs because the just work well without a lot of hassle. Plug in a printer and print! It all works and I won't spend more to gain 5 seconds of speed loading a program. The resale is good when replacing and the software upgrades beat anything Microsoft does. I have no complaints for Apple.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:49 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by old-wiz View Post
An external optical drive is also easy to replace if it goes bad. Try that with the built in superdrive.
QFT. My 2008 iMac is 4+ years old, and it went into the shop for repairs three times.

The reason for *all* those times? The Superdrive. I'm praying the Superdrive will hold on for another year, as I'm (obviously) out of AppleCare, and don't want to buy another Mac until later next year.

So an iMac sans optical drive would be great!
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 01:26 PM   #33
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QFT. My 2008 iMac is 4+ years old, and it went into the shop for repairs three times.

The reason for *all* those times? The Superdrive. I'm praying the Superdrive will hold on for another year, as I'm (obviously) out of AppleCare, and don't want to buy another Mac until later next year.

So an iMac sans optical drive would be great!

My suggestion to get the external drive now, and stop using the Superdrive. When you do retire the iMac the resale value will be much higher with a working Superdrive.... and you will still need the external for the replacement system.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 02:13 PM   #34
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The argument that "you hardly ever need it" make the omission of the drive even more onerous, cuz then you have to buy one just to use a couple of times a year.

Not everyone has Apple Headquarter's 3" thick optical cables going to every room in the place, nor does everyone live in trendy, well-wired hipster neighborhoods!
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 02:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by carlgo View Post
The argument that "you hardly ever need it" make the omission of the drive even more onerous, cuz then you have to buy one just to use a couple of times a year.

Not everyone has Apple Headquarter's 3" thick optical cables going to every room in the place, nor does everyone live in trendy, well-wired hipster neighborhoods!
"onerous" LOL.

When the majority of people have moved on from using Optical Discs daily then you now are the niche. The majority doesn't want to pay for lazy DJs.

You know your options. External Drive or Remote Disc.

Choosing who lives or dies is an agonizing decision. Choosing a f$%^&*() computer system is about the easiest thing a human can do.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 02:39 PM   #36
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A little background: I purchased a mid-2012 13" 2.9GHz MBP and a 15" mid-2012 2.7GHz i7 with Hi-Res Anti-glare MBP a couple months ago. Love them both but especially the 15". It's screaming fast. I also own an older iMac that needs to be replaced. That's the dilemma.

I was holding off upgrading my iMac awaiting the new iMac's. Now that they've been announced I"m not very happy that I"d be losing the optical drive and be getting essentially a sealed unit that is not easily user upgradeable.

So now I'm considering either getting another mid-2012 15" MBP and an external monitor or a 2011 27" iMac if one ever shows up again as a refurb.

I'm a DJ and use my MBP with VirtualDJ and I use my iMac for photography and video editing mostly.

Help me sort this out. I feel like Apple really doesn't want me as a customer anymore the direction their product line is moving.

Just curious why you might want 3 MBPs? If I was you and looking to upgrade the iMac, why not just buy a ATD to hook up your 15 MBP when you want a larger screen? Do you need 3 separate computers up and running at the same time?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 03:15 PM   #37
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Upgradability is not as important as it used to be.

...

Base level hardware is now "good enough" for most people and there's no real killer app (i.e., something everybody MUST HAVE) on the horizon to make use of the cpu power.
And this may be (is?) true for a large number of users. I just don't understand the logic behind making it difficult to upgrade anything. I upgraded my HDD on my old Black MacBook as well as the memory. I was grateful to be able to do so. My new MBP I can't do ANY of that.

Why? There's no benefit to Apple and they've annoyed a long-time customer. I'm not going to drop Apple, but it seems like senseless aggravation to me...

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
Choosing who lives or dies is an agonizing decision. Choosing a f$%^&*() computer system is about the easiest thing a human can do.
Yeah, you missed me at the Apple store staring between a MBP & MBA. Small columns of smoke emanating from my ears. Overall, not my strongest impression...

Plus: how many MBP vs MBA posts do we get in here?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 04:02 PM   #38
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I can understand the loss of ability to ugprade/replace RAM and HD, but the optical drive is actually a nice loss. I personally rarely use one, if ever. And when I do, my Samsung USB drive that I bought for 50 bucks works great. Plus I can plug it into any machine to use.

In place of the optical drive, I use services such as Dropbox and a USB flash drive as a fall back in case network activity is slow or N/A.

For portables, its a great loss. You save on power and weight, abliet a small amount.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 05:33 PM   #39
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Down with internal optical drives! Anyone who wants one should just get an external, as mentioned several times in this thread.

No, Apple isn't trying to get rid of you as a customer, they're just trying to make their computers more conservative as most people don't even use optical drives, and people who do can just buy an external drive.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 05:40 PM   #40
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I think they've pressed beyond what's reasonably necessary for a desktop, regarding thinness. I'm not lugging a desktop with me like I am with a notebook, so I'd prefer to have the additional features.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 07:08 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Just curious why you might want 3 MBPs? If I was you and looking to upgrade the iMac, why not just buy a ATD to hook up your 15 MBP when you want a larger screen? Do you need 3 separate computers up and running at the same time?
I'd like to know about this too... I guess I can see why you might want a 13 and 15 inch (portability and power) and maybe can just about see the reasoning behind an imac (although a display with either of the mbps would be a cheaper and probably better choice). But I just fail to see how having 2 of the same computer, and using only one with a display is at all necessary.

In fact assuming the OP doesn't need a particularly great GPU, they could almost certainly get away with just a 13" and a display. (that assumption could well be wrong but even so the 2 laptops would be fine)
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 07:46 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by cnymike View Post
A little background: I purchased a mid-2012 13" 2.9GHz MBP and a 15" mid-2012 2.7GHz i7 with Hi-Res Anti-glare MBP a couple months ago. Love them both but especially the 15". It's screaming fast. I also own an older iMac that needs to be replaced. That's the dilemma.

I was holding off upgrading my iMac awaiting the new iMac's. Now that they've been announced I"m not very happy that I"d be losing the optical drive and be getting essentially a sealed unit that is not easily user upgradeable.

So now I'm considering either getting another mid-2012 15" MBP and an external monitor or a 2011 27" iMac if one ever shows up again as a refurb.

I'm a DJ and use my MBP with VirtualDJ and I use my iMac for photography and video editing mostly.

Help me sort this out. I feel like Apple really doesn't want me as a customer anymore the direction their product line is moving.
Honestly, as someone who values the optical drive and covets having it in his own 2012 15" non-retina MacBook Pro (same machine you have), I find it less egregious to have it missing from the iMac or the Mac mini than I would a machine that I have to carry around (and thusly want to tow as few accessories as possible with).

My reasoning for this is that before owning the MacBook Pro, I used to own a 2010 Mac mini Server that I used as a non-server Mac, and with it, I used an external 5.25" Tray-load form-factor DVD drive and not only was it faster than what Apple previously included in both the iMac and the Mac mini, but it was also way more reliable (and cheaper to replace if ever it broke). While I'm not thrilled about Apple's push away from optical media, as far as their desktop lines are concerned, I'm okay with it because their optical drives were unreliable, needlessly expensive, and slow. I say get your 2012 iMac, get an external optical drive like I had with my former computer and you will be no less satisfied than if Apple included it (hell, you'll likely be more so).
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 07:54 PM   #43
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And this may be (is?) true for a large number of users. I just don't understand the logic behind making it difficult to upgrade anything.
It's a matter of what sells.

Apple machines are often purchased because they look stylish.

Apple has chosen to get to the "stylish" by making them thinner, lighter, etc.

The removal of slots, removable covers, etc has enabled them to save space. It's a means to an end, not the end game itself. Given that few people use them, they were likely seen as a worthy trade-off. For most users, i'm inclined to agree - hardware progress has slowed down a heap in recent years, as pe rmy previous post.

The removal of the optical drive has enabled them to be thinner and lighter than others who haven't had the balls to draw the line in the sand and say "no more optical".

Putting slots in a machine that perhaps 2-3% of their userbase will ever make use of is a waste of time, money and space.


Unfortunately, yes - if you're in that 2-3% of users (and I am myself) you will be upset.

At the moment your choice (for aftermarket RAM upgrades at least) is a Mac Mini, 27" iMac, Classic MBP or Mac Pro.

Yes, the Mac Pro is well overdue for an update. Again, it is a very small segment of apple's sales....

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlgo View Post
The argument that "you hardly ever need it" make the omission of the drive even more onerous, cuz then you have to buy one just to use a couple of times a year.
That 30 dollars is sure going to break the bank.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:04 PM   #44
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... I just don't understand the logic behind making it difficult to upgrade anything. ...

Why? There's no benefit to Apple and they've annoyed a long-time customer. I'm not going to drop Apple, but it seems like senseless aggravation to me...[COLOR="#808080"]
...
It's the appliance thing. Apple thinks computers should be appliances. I think they'd rather we even got away from calling them computers. You don't open up and upgrade your fridge or your TV. Apple wants their computers to be the same. Just like a stove...you take it home, you plug it in, you set the clock, it works.

Upgrading things harkens back to the Model T days of cars, when you need to be able to tinker your car from one end of city and back. Now, we just get in and drive. That's what Apple is aiming for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post
I think they've pressed beyond what's reasonably necessary for a desktop, regarding thinness. I'm not lugging a desktop with me like I am with a notebook, so I'd prefer to have the additional features.
Yeah, but we are talking about it a lot aren't we? Best marketing ever.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by cnymike View Post

I have an external optical drive that I use with my laptop but I'd prefer an internal drive.
If you didn't see the demise of the optical drive, nobody can help you.

If you go for an external optical, you'll get Blu-ray as a bonus. How could that be an issue on a desktop Mac?

I have 16GB RAM in my 2011 iMac and it's never even used half of that RAM. It's expand on purchase nowadays. Again, if you couldn't see that coming…

I believe you can still get into the 27" somewhat - THAT's a bonus.

Is it just the thought of these changes that puts you off buying, or some practical issue?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:46 PM   #46
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They want you - just buy an external optical drive as noted above.
And use up one of the 4 USB ports. Assuming you use a wired keyboard and mouse, and have a printer... good luck plugging in anything else.

Just get a Mac Pro, or a PC. The new iMacs are more like tablets than computers, from a repair standpoint.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 09:04 PM   #47
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I'm with you Mike. I have a 2008 iMac that I just put a SSD in to squeeze another year or two out of. If I was in the position of upgrading today, I'd probably choose a refurb old model over the new ones. Thin doesn't mean anything to me when it means loss of optical drive, switch to a slow 2.5" laptop drive, and a glued-in screen. I actually use my optical drive regularly, both to rip cd's and dvd's, and adding an external is counter to the point of an all-in-one.

I'm not sure what I'll do when it's actually time to upgrade, but it well could be a maxed-out mini and my own display, which bums me out because I've loved my current iMac - perfect form factor with just enough ability to upgrade to keep it going.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 09:28 PM   #48
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It's the appliance thing. Apple thinks computers should be appliances. I think they'd rather we even got away from calling them computers. You don't open up and upgrade your fridge or your TV. Apple wants their computers to be the same. Just like a stove...you take it home, you plug it in, you set the clock, it works.

Upgrading things harkens back to the Model T days of cars, when you need to be able to tinker your car from one end of city and back. Now, we just get in and drive. That's what Apple is aiming for.
I and others wish Apple would price their RAM upgrades closer to what the true market prices are rather than adding the Apple premium to a RAM upgrade.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:12 AM   #49
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I and others wish Apple would price their RAM upgrades closer to what the true market prices are rather than adding the Apple premium to a RAM upgrade.
Why? Apple is also adding the labour cost of installing, plus the cost of handling the warranty on bad sticks. Plus the consumer "experience" of not having to worry about their RAM. Most products in consumer life are not priced based on cost+plus+expenses. They are priced on what the market will bear. It's only on a store-wide basis that you can get the overall all mark-up for a product segment.

Here's a news flash... there are some products sold at, horrors! - a loss!! Just because it brings people into a store who will buy other things. Generally speaking - the further you get from the front doors, the lower the mark-up. Apple stores excepted, of course....

Sigh...
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:20 AM   #50
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Why? Apple is also adding the labour cost of installing, plus the cost of handling the warranty on bad sticks. Plus the consumer "experience" of not having to worry about their RAM. Most products in consumer life are not priced based on cost+plus+expenses. They are priced on what the market will bear. It's only on a store-wide basis that you can get the overall all mark-up for a product segment.
Why? Because I don't want to overpay for something and throw my money away. If you read my comment you would notice I said closer to the market price. Sure Apple can charge a slight fee, but is it really any different putting in a 8GB ram kit vs 16GB kit? I think not. They have to put in some ram whether it is 8, 16, or 32.

Warranty issues, I have no problem dealing with amazon or the manufacturer. The few times I have ever had an issue I had new sticks within a few days.

So yes I wish apple would bring the price down closer to the market average. Never said bottom barrel pricing. But closer to the norm. Their prices are outrageous and have no bearing on the market.

Double sigh...
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