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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:44 PM   #76
Defender2010
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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
Adjusting the layout of the buttons isn't going to help. You still can't see them when you're looking at the TV. And of course you can't feel where here they are. And even if you could, the lack of shoulder buttons has always been a problem for more complex games.


The Wii U controller has physical buttons and analog sticks in addition to the screen. Those are what you use when not looking at the controller screen.
Gosh, have you got zero hand/eye co-ordination? Memory issues? cant you remember "directions on left of screen, buttons on the right" shoulder buttons Can be top left and top right. Unbelievable!
WiiU requires you to touch only for certain games....eg. ZombieU. The user has to flick and move objects in their inventory,,,,without the use of an analogue stick or buttons.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:49 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by DJAKO View Post
Ya, because games like GTA, Infinity Blade, EA Sports, Real Racing, etc aren't in the app store.
Okay. You enjoy playing GTA 3, Infinity Blade, EA Sports and Real Racing on your Apple TV. I'll enjoy non-mobile and newer games on my PC and PS3.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:52 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Defender2010 View Post
Gosh, have you got zero hand/eye co-ordination? Unbelievable!
WiiU requires you to touch only for certain games....eg. ZombieU. The user has to flick and move objects in their inventory,,,,without the use of an analogue stick or buttons.
You don't seem to understand what the term hand-eye coordination means. 'Cause trying to memorize the position of something you can't see is not it. Unless you want to look down constantly, which isn't very practical for a fast paced game.

Quick flicks across the screen are one thing. That's basically using the touchscreen as a glorified trackpad. In fact a trackpad would work quite well for casual games. Or even an RTS.

And you're still ignoring the lack of shoulder buttons. Being able to use more than two digits at once is not a trival matter!
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:15 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
You don't seem to understand what the term hand-eye coordination means. 'Cause trying to memorize the position of something you can't see is not it. Unless you want to look down constantly, which isn't very practical for a fast paced game.

Quick flicks across the screen are one thing. That's basically using the touchscreen as a glorified trackpad. In fact a trackpad would work quite well for casual games. Or even an RTS.

And you're still ignoring the lack of shoulder buttons. Being able to use more than two digits at once is not a trival matter!
What's not to get? Here is a very rudimentary drawing of what I mean, users can also tweak the size of the area or button and 'multitouch' allows more than one button at a time to be used. Stop twisting for twisting sake!
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:29 PM   #80
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What's not to get? Here is a very rudimentary drawing of what I mean, users can also tweak the size of the area or button and 'multitouch' allows more than one button at a time to be used. Stop twisting for twisting sake!
  1. The more buttons you try to put on the screen, the easier it will be to accidentally press the wrong one while not looking.
  2. Try using your two thumbs and two trigger fingers on the screen all at the same time. It doesn't work very well, as they bend in different directions.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:32 PM   #81
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I'm sure it's already been said but IOS 6.1 does not have this at all.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:34 PM   #82
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Okay. You enjoy playing GTA 3, Infinity Blade, EA Sports and Real Racing on your Apple TV. I'll enjoy non-mobile and newer games on my PC and PS3.
Who said you can't have both?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:39 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
  1. The more buttons you try to put on the screen, the easier it will be to accidentally press the wrong one while not looking.
  2. Try using your two thumbs and two trigger fingers on the screen all at the same time. It doesn't work very well, as they bend in different directions.
Tumbleweed........
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:43 PM   #84
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Tumbleweed........
You think I'm being stubborn? I have considered these things. The human hand just isn't built the way you want it to be. If it were then controllers would have trigger buttons there... putting them all on one side would greatly simply the internals... instead of on top or the back, because controllers were built around hands.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 03:54 PM   #85
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Who said you can't have both?
Nobody. But it won't be a very good games console without some decent titles.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:03 PM   #86
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You think I'm being stubborn? I have considered these things. The human hand just isn't built the way you want it to be. If it were then controllers would have trigger buttons there... putting them all on one side would greatly simply the internals... instead of on top or the back, because controllers were built around hands.
Show me an iOS game that uses 'shoulder' controls...
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:48 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Defender2010 View Post
What's not to get? Here is a very rudimentary drawing of what I mean, users can also tweak the size of the area or button and 'multitouch' allows more than one button at a time to be used. Stop twisting for twisting sake!
That *looks* like an easy to use layout, but it's not. With that layout, you'll find yourself pressing the wrong shoulder buttons regularly, and your fingers probably won't end up back in the correct spots after you try. Worse, because you won't always want to press *any* of those 'buttons', you'll be keeping your finger(s) off the screen, making your next attempt to press one unlikely to be successful.

Unless of course, you're busy looking at your controller's layout, rather than the screen the game is being displayed on.

The complete lack of tactile feedback makes an utterly flat controller lousy for any game where you require multiple, discrete inputs, and you can't be looking at the screen every time you need to trigger one of those inputs.

The virtual game pad concept works for smartphone and table games because you're looking at the 'controller' while you play. That's hand eye coordination. If you don't believe the well-informed among you, try it yourself. Find an iPhone/iPad game which works with AirPlay mirroring. Try playing the game while your hands (and the device) are under a blanket so you can't see them. Then post video of your results.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 05:01 PM   #88
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Show me an iOS game that uses 'shoulder' controls...
That's the problem; Lack of shoulder buttons makers many tradition genres clunky in iOS. Most notably first and third person shooters:
  • On consoles the primary and secondary fire buttons are assigned to shoulder buttons, allowing one to move, aim, and shoot all at the same time.
  • On iOS the fire and aim controls are both on the right side of the screen, meaning that you have to constantly juggle your right thumb between the two tasks.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 07:17 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
He's talking about emulators, APIs etc.
The AppleTV needs 3rd party emulators? They need help from third parties to deliver an iOS API?

Who wrote the API's for OSX? Who wrote the API's for iOS? And... the AppleTV RUNS iOS. They would need to open up a very thin UI layer on top of the exact same OS that's already in every phone and tablet. And they ALREADY use that UI layer privately to deliver their own apps.

No... we won't hear rumors about Apple getting help from 3rd party developers in order to deliver an open API on the iOS based AppleTV.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 12:34 AM   #90
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but there are Shoulder controllers

Turn your iphone around, the volume up and down would make two perfect shoulder buttons.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 01:41 AM   #91
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Besides games what apps would be useful on Apple Tv? I can't think of any.
WebTV dedicated channels, meteo, social apps, browser ecc..
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:34 AM   #92
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If the iPad, iPhone, iPod ever included this textured technology, then they might make decent controllers. http://techland.time.com/2012/03/07/...en-technology/
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:54 AM   #93
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Turn your iphone around, the volume up and down would make two perfect shoulder buttons.
If Apple permitted it that would certainly help a lot. Though they've always been reluctant to allow apps to remap the physical buttons. Only after years of considerable demand did they finally let us use the volume up button as a shutter release.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 04:02 AM   #94
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This is some cringe-worthy speculation. Have you even tried to pretend to use the volume buttons as shoulder buttons, or hit the top of the screen with the side of your index fingers? It doesn't work.

-The Ouya, an indie gaming console running on Android, just had the most successful Kickstarter campaign in history.
-This has been the worst year for the videogame industry since it crashed in the 80s, partially because casual and old-school gamers are choosing iOS over consoles.
-The target market for the AppleTV, and the supposed AppleTV televisions, is people who already own at least one iDevice.
-Obviously the next AppleTV will have a lightning connector for receiving video output from iDevices.

So we're looking at a $100 console that upgrades every time you buy a new smartphone, controlled by a $50 proprietary Bluetooth controller, with a library of games that travels everywhere with you, some of which you already own, many of which can be played on-the-go with the touch screen. Whereas Sony will charge you an extra $40 to play on the go with tactile feedback (which gamers have already decided isn't worth it by not buying Vitas), and NO company will allow you to take your game to a friend's house without bringing the whole console. Apple could always release a portable controller case as well, though I doubt they would.

Basically, Apple can take over the videogame industry by releasing a Bluetooth controller. I know very few people who plan to buy a next-gen console, and if consumers are suddenly expecting to be able to play Madden for iOS on a big screen with tactile feedback, $30 for an app will be a much easier sell than it is now. Two years from now, iPhones will be as powerful as today's consoles, and next-gen consoles will be.....$400. Almost like PC gaming, it will only be worth the expense to the dwindling number of hardcore gamers, and if companies like EA decide to make up for lost sales by putting an OnLive-type service on AppleTV, the gamers with fast internet connections won't buy consoles, turning online console gaming into a lagfest. Not to mention, as next-gen consoles approach a point where they can be sold at a profit, iPhones will be getting more powerful with each passing year.

I'm excited for the future.
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