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Old Dec 10, 2012, 06:23 PM   #76
faroZ06
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The cost of this FTC investigation is probably the cost of buying an iPod touch for every kid affected. I don't understand why it's legal to data-mine adults but not children, but it is. Oh gee, they're mass collecting data from kids to suit the advertisements better for them, so horrible

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Originally Posted by 1080p View Post
Why don't we put issues like this on the back burner and let's worry about this little December 31st deadline known as the "fiscal cliff", ok?
Maybe the FTC should be one of the cuts that helps resolve it. This stuff is serious nonsense that people are paying taxes for.

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Originally Posted by ChristianJapan View Post
I hope they also request Apple to make GameCenter controllable under parental control and avoid these permanent login requests we have to cancel. I don't want my kid using GC at all.
It's already like that. You can disable the Game Center in the parental controls section, and I have for myself just because it's as annoying as retarded Ping.

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Originally Posted by 7enderbender View Post
Exactly right. What "apps" (why did we stop calling things computer programs?) does a kid need to download? Computer games? Doro the ****? Let-me-blow-your-brains-out-VII? Math-games for lazy parents and teachers? Take your pick.

Kid needs a word processor, Excel or access to internet research? It's already installed. No need to download any "apps". Not gonna happen in my house until they're old and experienced enough to understand the consequences. And can buy their own computers.
Kids need Super Smash Brothers Melee, not joking.

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Originally Posted by rjohnstone View Post
Considering the FTC has nothing to do with negotiating a "deal" for the fiscal cliff issue, I think they can continue to do THEIR job and not worry about what Congress and the Pres are doing.
They can continue doing their job, but the FTC itself is part of the reason why we have the fiscal cliff problem. They spend money on useless causes. Think about it; this money could have been spent fixing the debt problem or feeding Syrian refugees who are starving, but we're using it to make sure nobody knows how to advertise to children.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 06:29 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by 7enderbender View Post
Yeah, actually yes. They're doing ok. And there are not too many limitations actually in our house with normal stuff. They can read whatever they want for instance. You know, books and stuff. But no Angry Birds or anything like that for us. They want to play computer games then they need to learn how to program them for themselves. Pretty simple. I don't need a government agency reading the fine print for us.
Amen. People don't realize how much of their life they waste playing games these days. I understand playing Angry Birds in a waiting room somewhere, but my issue is with people who identify themselves as a "Gamer". Games should be for recreation only and not a second life. A lot of people waste many hours of each day playing some game or another, when they could be doing something that actually contributes something to society. Games are pure dopamine. You can get that doing many other things; hell, you might even make a living at the same time.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 07:16 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by dankly View Post
Google data mining children....nothing wrong with that!
Poor google get such a hard time for such a credible organization.
I don't think you read this at all.

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Originally Posted by ConCat View Post
Amen. People don't realize how much of their life they waste playing games these days. I understand playing Angry Birds in a waiting room somewhere, but my issue is with people who identify themselves as a "Gamer". Games should be for recreation only and not a second life. A lot of people waste many hours of each day playing some game or another, when they could be doing something that actually contributes something to society. Games are pure dopamine. You can get that doing many other things; ****, you might even make a living at the same time.
That's not totally true. A lot of FPS games are mindless, but I've found that all the kids who play some games, mostly Nintendo games, are the best at math and science. But people who are true "gamers" are usually (not always) pitiful. The annoying thing is when they claim that PC gaming is better than console gaming and say that console-playing people are "noobs". Yeah, a gaming PC is better, but paying that much to play silly games is pointless.

Last edited by faroZ06; Dec 10, 2012 at 07:29 PM.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:08 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by sashapave View Post
I don't see how the apps for kids fall outside of the normal app privacy terms and conditions set in the iTunes store.
They don't. The articles are very clear with the details, especially breakdowns of which apps were looked at and what they were found guilty of. It's great to know 150 apps were gathering location information without warning but its a far different story if it turns out they were all Google apps and no Apple app was found to do this.

And what about the state of things now. This survey was like a year ago. Polices change. It would be nice to see a mention of that

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Originally Posted by LagunaSol View Post
Parents are supposed to sift through app code to determine whether any data collection is being done?
Doing your homework is part of being a parent. At the least they should be aware of their kids having a Facebook account, etc.

My brother has a ten year old and gave my nephew his old iPhone to use as an iPod touch. It's on restrictions and Dylan knows if he tries to get cute it, his computer and game consoles will be taken away. There have been several games that Kyle wouldn't buy because he didn't think they were proper. WhenDylan fusses, Dad reminds him that its just a game and when he's an adult he can do what he wants. And that he can not have an iPod very quickly

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Originally Posted by ChristianJapan View Post
I hope they also request Apple to make GameCenter controllable under parental control and avoid these permanent login requests we have to cancel. I don't want my kid using GC at all.
Agreed. Game Center accounts, along with the built in twitter and Facebook should be in the accounts restriction

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Originally Posted by skinned66 View Post
You can disable multiplayer games and adding friends for GC in iOS 6. What else is left that concerns you?

Or is it an older device where this is not available?
They can still log in and have what they are playing visible. May not seem like a big deal to you but you aren't the parent in this case so its their desire that matters. So why not have apple include it for those that want to use it with their kids
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:30 PM   #80
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Guess the FTC found their new cash cows.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 08:30 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by faroZ06 View Post
I don't think you read this at all.

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That's not totally true. A lot of FPS games are mindless, but I've found that all the kids who play some games, mostly Nintendo games, are the best at math and science. But people who are true "gamers" are usually (not always) pitiful. The annoying thing is when they claim that PC gaming is better than console gaming and say that console-playing people are "noobs". Yeah, a gaming PC is better, but paying that much to play silly games is pointless.
Thats a bit unfair, a gaming pc can easily go for less than a Mac. My pc serves both roles, you could argue that I saved money becuase I dont need a console. I think parents are right to restrict video games,mine did- but not totally, but I dont think Im a damaged human because of them. Games are recreation, i would be reluctant to let my hypothetical child attempt to make a career out of it. To each their own.

Ah, and I hope everyone hating on games feels the same way about TV & Movies, becuase they're the same damn thing!
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:25 PM   #82
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Not that it really matters, but the pic for this article isn't actually the FTC's logo/seal/whatever it is.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 09:47 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by MacMilligan View Post
The apps we are working on do not collect any information what-so-ever except in-app save data (such as preference settings and in game flags) that are never transferred off the device. I'm surprised Apple hasn't stepped up with a tougher review process for apps targeting children.
why not all apps in general? the lack of respect for the users by various app programmers is getting ludicrous
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 10:30 PM   #84
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Kid-apping.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 12:26 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ALCRON View Post
Kid-apping.
That was really a good one ... Creative ... and spot-on
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 12:38 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by dankly View Post
Google data mining children....nothing wrong with that!
Poor google get such a hard time for such a credible organization.
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Originally Posted by gotluck View Post
This article is not about Google.
Good reading comprehension!
No but its about underhanded data mining of children. Google lead the way in data mining and are the world leaders in that area these companies learn from googles methods. Bigger picture my egotistical compadre
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 02:06 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by 7enderbender View Post
Yeah, actually yes. They're doing ok. And there are not too many limitations actually in our house with normal stuff. They can read whatever they want for instance. You know, books and stuff. But no Angry Birds or anything like that for us. They want to play computer games then they need to learn how to program them for themselves. Pretty simple. I don't need a government agency reading the fine print for us.
Right, right... And if they want Fish n' Chips for dinner do they need to first go out and catch sum shark and farm sum potatoes?



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Originally Posted by 7enderbender View Post
I would agree that any addiction is very problematic. Which one is worse is difficult to decide. If there are signs that anyone has problems to self-regulate anything then it's maybe time to say something - or do something if it's a child. And I understand that "banning" stuff in general can be an issue. If you don't allow chocolate or something chances are your kids may find other ways behind your back. I get that. I just have this aversion to gaming. I've seen pretty bad things happening to people who had completely free access to this from a very early age. I'm pretty convinced that at least for some people gaming messes with their brain chemistry and physiology.
I reckon that restricting things just makes their want for it worse - Because you always want what you're not allowed. When I was young my parents, while I had a good relationship with them (and still do), didn't really restrict me on most things. So I did have free access to computer games, junk food and porn from pretty early on. But after the initial curiosity wore off I kinda 'got over it' and learned to use them responsibly, as such Now I'm not addicted to anything.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 07:45 AM   #88
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Regardless if you can disable in-app purchases this needs to be looked at. I always wondered what would happen if you brought up the fake gold/game money up and let a 12 yr old start clicking lol. Suddenly a 1k bill from apple$$$
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 09:16 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by faroZ06 View Post
I don't think you read this at all.

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That's not totally true. A lot of FPS games are mindless, but I've found that all the kids who play some games, mostly Nintendo games, are the best at math and science.
That may well be. Not sure about the causality though. I wouldn't be surprised if people who are drawn to math and science are also interested in playing these kind of games. But I doubt that playing anything makes you "better" at math or science - whatever that means really.

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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
Have you considered that those people already had a problem and a symptom of the problem was excessively playing video games? The first generation that can't remember a time without video games is hitting their mid-30's now (and the average age of a game is late 30's) so I think it would be very apparent if playing video games was as detrimental as you think it is. There have been a number of studies done about video games and child development (mostly centered around violence) and pretty much they only conclusion they end up with is that children with violent tendencies usually enjoy playing violent video games. Not really an Earth shattering discovery, IMO.
You make a good case. What else can I say. I don't want it in my house. And it's really one of the few things that make me cringe. And smoking. Seems just so unnecessary and a waste of time and money - with the potential for adverse affects on health and otherwise. So it's still a no, but like I said, I totally get your point.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 10:13 AM   #90
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You make a good case. What else can I say. I don't want it in my house. And it's really one of the few things that make me cringe. And smoking. Seems just so unnecessary and a waste of time and money - with the potential for adverse affects on health and otherwise. So it's still a no, but like I said, I totally get your point.
Not really trying to start an argument here, how you raise your kids is your own business. Do you allow TV & Movies in your house? The way I see it, they have all the negatives that games do. They are just more socially acceptable, particularly with the older generation. When my parents would moan at me about games, I would say I'm trading my TV/Movie time for it.
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Last edited by gotluck; Dec 11, 2012 at 10:31 AM.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 12:24 PM   #91
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Not really trying to start an argument here, how you raise your kids is your own business. Do you allow TV & Movies in your house? The way I see it, they have all the negatives that games do. They are just more socially acceptable, particularly with the older generation. When my parents would moan at me about games, I would say I'm trading my TV/Movie time for it.
No, indeed no need to look at this as an argument. Everyone has to figure this out for themselves and there is no "right" or "wrong" here as absolutes probably. But, indeed we try to keep TV and movies within limits as well. My 9-year old daughter could care less and looks at movies like a social event, such when we do our weekly family movie together or go to the movie theater. My 6-year old son would probably be happy to watch TV 24/7. Go figure. We came actually pretty close to canceling our cable TV recently and we still may. I only use it to watch the news every no and so often (which in our 24-hour news cycle and the constant availability of the web is usually completely redundant). I'd rather pay for Netflix and have much bigger variety -if there is time. We had that for a while and got rid of it because we never used it.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 01:06 PM   #92
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why not all apps in general? the lack of respect for the users by various app programmers is getting ludicrous
Thank all the analytics companies out there that hook up with the business side of app development companies. Programmers mostly groan when having to implement something like that. Luckily, we are independent and chose long ago not to mine data or plaster ads all over our apps.

In a way though, consumers are partially at fault. The race to the bottom price-wise has given a lot of companies no choice but to rely on unconventional methods to monetize their apps. For most people, even 99 cents is too much these days for a good apps that may have taken a team several months to a year to produce.

It is gross, but not surprising that even children's apps do this.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 04:38 PM   #93
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Try the very first sentence in the very first post of this thread.
i see APP STORE and Google Play

sounds like its talking about MOBILE APPS in general
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 05:35 PM   #94
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That may well be. Not sure about the causality though. I wouldn't be surprised if people who are drawn to math and science are also interested in playing these kind of games. But I doubt that playing anything makes you "better" at math or science - whatever that means really.
Assuming that people can be naturally good at math and science, there's not an easy way to tell. I don't think anyone can be born with such a big advantage except in rare cases.

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Originally Posted by STiNG Operation View Post
Regardless if you can disable in-app purchases this needs to be looked at. I always wondered what would happen if you brought up the fake gold/game money up and let a 12 yr old start clicking lol. Suddenly a 1k bill from apple$$$
You can disable them, but I just install a hack that makes all of the in-app purchases free.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 06:30 PM   #95
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But I doubt that playing anything makes you "better" at math or science - whatever that means really.
In elementary school I played a math game on my families TI99 computer (I don't recall the name) and looking back it was really no different than using flash cards as a suplemental study aid. From what I remember about the game a balloon was failing from the sky and you had to solve the math problems that appeared on screen to keep the balloon aloft otherwise it would land on a needle and pop (I think you got the pops before game over). The longer the game went on the harder the problems became and the faster the balloon fell. As a kid playing the game and earning a high school was more motivating than sitting with my parents and drilling flash cards (though I did that too).

I also remember going to a friends house and thinking how awesome the game Where in the World is Carmen Sandeigo was without even realizing it was teaching us geography and exercising our deductive reasoning skills. Then, of course, there is Duke Nukem. Which was not educational in the least but so much fun that 20yrs later my brother and I still reminisce about some of the head-to-head battles we had.


Quote:
You make a good case. What else can I say. I don't want it in my house. And it's really one of the few things that make me cringe.
I think "I don't want it in my house" is enough of a reason without needing to demonize something. Too much sitting around is bad thing in general for kids (whether they are reading, studying or playing video games) so, like you said in a previous post, everything in moderation.

EDIT: As an aside thanks to mobile gaming (tablets/smart phones) I'm able easily to play my nieces and nephews (all elementary school ages and spread across the country) in games like Scrabble and chess (they borrow their parents' devices of course). It doesn't substitute for being with them in person but it's a fun way for us to stay in touch.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 08:50 PM   #96
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This article is not about Google.
Good reading comprehension!
LoL eat your own words
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:14 PM   #97
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LoL eat your own words
...still don't get it?

This article was about app developers collecting data on children, not Google...
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 10:01 AM   #98
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So I guess you just read the first 20 words and decided to take a break?

Man, are you gonna be surprised when you come back with your snack and start back with the 21st word in the article.
That just says apps available on Google market place, not apps provided by Google. I don't get how this is in any way aimed at Google apps collecting data for Google as your post implies
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 10:46 AM   #99
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That just says apps available on Google market place, not apps provided by Google. I don't get how this is in any way aimed at Google apps collecting data for Google as your post implies
dankly's post said that. Mine did not.

Mine simply said that the report and the article involved Google, which it clearly does. (Just as it involved Apple and it involves app developers and it involves the government).
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 10:50 AM   #100
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Google data mining children....nothing wrong with that!
Poor google get such a hard time for such a credible organization.
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You must be reading a different article than the rest of us.
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
What does Google have to do with this? I didn't see a single mention of them anywhere in the article...

edit:...okay, at the very top.
Read again it says the app store and Google play store. But they are investigating the developers not Apple and Google.
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