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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:41 PM   #51
snberk103
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Why? Because I don't want to overpay for something and throw my money away. If you read my comment you would notice I said closer to the market price. Sure Apple can charge a slight fee, but is it really any different putting in a 8GB ram kit vs 16GB kit? I think not. They have to put in some ram whether it is 8, 16, or 32.

Warranty issues, I have no problem dealing with amazon or the manufacturer. The few times I have ever had an issue I had new sticks within a few days.

So yes I wish apple would bring the price down closer to the market average. Never said bottom barrel pricing. But closer to the norm. Their prices are outrageous and have no bearing on the market.

Double sigh...
Good - then order it yourself. No one is stopping you. Install it yourself, and deal with any warranty issues yourself. That is what you are paying Apple for, otherwise. If you don't want the hassle of doing it yourself then you have to pay someone to do it for you. If you want to save the service charges, then you get to service it yourself.

I see your double sigh, and raise you an eye-roll ...
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:09 AM   #52
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The sealed box makes sense for the average iMac buyer.

The thread OP here is not an average iMac buyer. Neither am I. I'm very happy with my 2011 model, except for the DVD drive which, like every DVD drive I've ever owned, has failed. Unlike an external, it isn't worth the hassle to replace it, so I'll just go ahead and use an external like I do for my laptop the four or five times a year I need it.

Anyway, there are two things that you don't like about the new iMac: lack of a DVD drive, and lack of upgradability. But, neither of those matter to most people.

There is one other thing that you, a power user, shouldn't like about the new iMac: it's basically a laptop. Miniaturized components, all sealed in place. The type of user who wants to be able to upgrade things shouldn't really want that: you want a Mac Pro.

The new Mac Pro isn't too much farther out now. Well, it may be a while. But, it's going to happen in 2013. I don't think that MR knows anything about it, except that it's probably going to be built in a new facility in America and probably with a lot of automation; the way Macs used to be built when they used to be made in America. Which might drive down the cost a bit- although they never were cheap back then. Hah, I have no basis at all for speculating that the Mac Pro will be available and affordable. But I know it will be a more suitable computer for your desires than the iMac.

So, hold out for the Pro.

TLDR:
1) Most people don't want an upgradable computer, so it makes sense for Apple not to make its main line upgradable.

2) Most people don't want a DVD drive and Apple doesn't want to keep fixing them, so it makes sense not to include them in the main lines.

3) You should wait for a Mac Pro.

Last edited by Jayratch; Dec 12, 2012 at 12:11 AM. Reason: brianfart, said iMac where I should have said Pro
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:34 AM   #53
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An external optical drive is also easy to replace if it goes bad. Try that with the built in superdrive.
actually ive replaced the superdrive due to it being faulty in several iMacs and macbook pros prior to 2008, really easy, as easy as say, changing out the same components in a PC, a monkey with a screwdriver could do it.

Apple are making it so hard to do any maintenance or upgrades on a device i can upgrade and maintain from any other maker (or build myself from parts) that i really think it is pure greed, im waiting for apple to announce that Mac OS XI is "cloud" only in the future and will only run if you buy a new mac at least every other year.

It really does feel like they are taking the piss now, burying a part that is, at some point, GOING to fail, not might, but will, (The Hard Disk) deep inside and now sealing it in just reeks of apple sticking two fingers up at the consumer, so your 3 months out of apple care, with an iMac that was doing the job, no need to upgrade, and the HDD fails, you take it back to Apple, and they then basically force you to buy a new one, or charge you 70% the cost of a new one to put a new drive in.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:50 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jayratch View Post
The sealed box makes sense for the average iMac buyer.

TLDR:
1) Most people don't want an upgradable computer, so it makes sense for Apple not to make its main line upgradable.

2) Most people don't want a DVD drive and Apple doesn't want to keep fixing them, so it makes sense not to include them in the main lines.
Ill agree with that EXCEPT, point 1, people might not want an upgradable computer, but they DO want one they can service if the HDD fails, or add more RAM to in order to extend the life of it, often, at this level of user your referring to, adding more ram can add another few YEARS to the life span of the device, I've done this, with existing iMacs and MacBooks that relatives , who are non-technical own, on many occasions, but no more, now Apple wants my Grandfather, who bought this thinking it would last the rest of his life, to buy a new one now the HDD has failed, its out of apple care, and its five years old, screw you apple, Ram and HDDs are user serviceable parts, and should be easily accessible and replaceable, especially HDDs that ARE GOING TO FAIL at some point, but Apple doesn't expect you'll own your mac longer than the MTF of a HDD, that you will drop $$$$ every year or two and completely replace it


Greedy Feckers



Now... im off to order my 27" imac with all the trimmings.... i just cant help myself
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 10:39 AM   #55
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Some of the posts in this thread are really interesting. I especially like the ones that say 'I haven't needed an optical drive for years!' as though this is the way it is for everyone. Some of us actually realize that CD's sound better than downloads. Just like Bluray is better than digital streaming. Disc technology is still the cream of the crop for right now. I'm not going to quit buying discs because Apple thinks I shouldn't any more. That's just ludicrous.

And as for optical drives failing in apple computers, they're slot loading drives. Dust gets in and settles on the lens. My 2009 Mac Mini optical drive 'failed' twice. I cleaned it both times, and it worked fine. My wife's 2009 iMac had the same issue. Cleaning fixed the problem. I wonder how many optical drives were replaced when they were dirty?

I don't think I'd be so pissed about them dropping optical drives if they gave us a choice in another system. The Mac Pro doesn't count, as I'm not going to spend $2500 on a workstation that I don't need. Having an optical option in the mini wouldn't hurt. As I've said before, the tooling and space is there. They just 'don't want to.'
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:31 AM   #56
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Ill agree with that EXCEPT, point 1, people might not want an upgradable computer, but they DO want one they can service if the HDD fails, or add more RAM to in order to extend the life of it,
With respect, I disagree. It is only a small minority of people who care. The tinkerers, the fiddlers, the techies. Apple doesn't care about them because they are tiny minority. The vast majority of people want their computers to work like an appliance. Wake it up - work on it - turn it off. Use it for a number of years... I am the Mac Guru in a large crowd of Mac users. A fair number of them are techie enough that they know specs of their systems. In fact they researched the specs, and bought their systems on specs... not looks. Nobody, except for the few Mac Pro users, have any desire to add HDDs or RAM. For those who know about these things - they bought systems with more than enough for their needs. For those that don't know about these things - they don't do anything that pushes their systems - so they will never need to upgrade.

These people represent the majority of people buying Macs.

And Macs, in my experience, tend to work for a long time. I'm writing this on a 2008 MBP. I can'f find a reason to upgrade it to something newer. My wife is still using her 1st generation MBA. It's used daily, and it's a working travel machine. She only just retired her 2008 MBP (which she uses as her 'desktop' system.) She literally wore the letters off the keyboard. The reason she needed to upgrade it was that she needed to run a virtual Windows installation. These are just personal anecdotes, but I find that these are common experiences among my group of Mac friends.

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Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
... its out of apple care, and its five years old, screw you apple, Ram and HDDs are user serviceable parts, ...

Greedy Feckers
Apple wants you think of your computer as an appliance.... for better or for worse. It may not meet your needs ... and I don't argue that... Macs are not for those who want to tinker under the hood. But... you are not required to buy into the Apple system. In my opinion, people who are banging their heads on desk because they can't fiddle with the Macs need to recognize that they have bought the wrong product for their needs. It's like buying a bar fridge (without a freezer section) and then complaining that you can easily upgrade it with a freezer.
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Now... im off to order my 27" imac with all the trimmings.... i just cant help myself
Yeah... Apple has that magical quality though, eh?
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:32 AM   #57
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Having an optical option in the mini wouldn't hurt. As I've said before, the tooling and space is there. They just 'don't want to.'
Is there really room in the new Mac mini. It looks tight to me for space.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 11:41 AM   #58
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With respect, I disagree. It is only a small minority of people who care. The tinkerers, the fiddlers, the techies. Apple doesn't care about them because they are tiny minority. The vast majority of people want their computers to work like an appliance. Wake it up - work on it - turn it off. Use it for a number of years... I am the Mac Guru in a large crowd of Mac users. A fair number of them are techie enough that they know specs of their systems. In fact they researched the specs, and bought their systems on specs... not looks. Nobody, except for the few Mac Pro users, have any desire to add HDDs or RAM. For those who know about these things - they bought systems with more than enough for their needs. For those that don't know about these things - they don't do anything that pushes their systems - so they will never need to upgrade.

These people represent the majority of people buying Macs.
Perhaps, but my experience is the opposite where almost everyone I know has at some time upgraded the RAM or HDD in their computer, especially those who own Macs and tend to try to keep them for 5-7 years. The vast majority of these people are not techies or even tech literate - but installing RAM has historically been a screw or two and that's it. Being able to upgrade the RAM is one of the key things that makes those computers usable for that length of time.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:01 PM   #59
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Perhaps, but my experience is the opposite where almost everyone I know has at some time upgraded the RAM or HDD in their computer, especially those who own Macs and tend to try to keep them for 5-7 years. The vast majority of these people are not techies or even tech literate - but installing RAM has historically been a screw or two and that's it. Being able to upgrade the RAM is one of the key things that makes those computers usable for that length of time.
I suspect we come from different age brackets, and our peer groups probably reflect that. My group just wants to get their work done, and move on. They don't want to make the tool "better" - in the same way that they don't want to make their garden shovel "better". They buy a quality tool, they use it 'till it no longer works... usually about 4 years... they donate it to a good cause. In other words, the kind of customers that Apple seems to want.... the evidence being that their systems work so well for this kind of group.

I'm not saying that you should be happy with Macs. Just that Macs are not designed to meet your needs. Ranting about them won't change that.... though it may do you good to get if off your chest.

But it would be like me ranting that I can't fit lumber in my Smart Car. I knew it had some limitations when I bought it.... so I take advantage of its benefits, and accept its limitations. Wishing I could fit a full-sized bicycle inside my Smart Car is kinda futile.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:07 PM   #60
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I suspect we come from different age brackets, and our peer groups probably reflect that. My group just wants to get their work done, and move on. They don't want to make the tool "better" - in the same way that they don't want to make their garden shovel "better". They buy a quality tool, they use it 'till it no longer works... usually about 4 years... they donate it to a good cause. In other words, the kind of customers that Apple seems to want.... the evidence being that their systems work so well for this kind of group.

I'm not saying that you should be happy with Macs. Just that Macs are not designed to meet your needs. Ranting about them won't change that.... though it may do you good to get if off your chest.

But it would be like me ranting that I can't fit lumber in my Smart Car. I knew it had some limitations when I bought it.... so I take advantage of its benefits, and accept its limitations. Wishing I could fit a full-sized bicycle inside my Smart Car is kinda futile.
Eh, I'm not sure of that. Most of the people I refer to are older - 40's-60's and on, and I find it especially so in the Apple camp because Apple computers are more expensive up front and people tend to hold on to them for a long time. People who buy dirt cheap pc's tend to use them for 3-4 years until they are too slow, and then scrap them and buy a new one for $400 rather than upgrading them.

Macs have met our needs for ~8 years for myself, 10-15 years for much of my family - but one of those needs has long been that they build slick all-in-ones that are not impossible to service. I don't think it's out of line that long term, good customers should bring these points up when a change like this is made.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:16 PM   #61
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Apple believes that consumer computers should be appliances. For the same reason you don't open up and 'upgrade' your dishwasher or fridge, Apple doesn't want you opening up your Mac.
Upgrading can also mean extending the useful life of your machine. I had a b&w G3 for some years, and it was made to be very upgradeable--I gave it extra ram, a 2nd drive, even a processor upgrade. None of that, of course, benefited Apple financially. Eventually, non-upgradeable bits on the motherboard started to fail (when it failed I was able to pop out the 2nd drive and move it to the next machine). Over time, upgrades tend to become cheaper, so being able to leave them until you need them saves you money. Having to pay Apple prices up front for everything is just too much.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:53 PM   #62
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I suspect we come from different age brackets, and our peer groups probably reflect that. My group just wants to get their work done, and move on. They don't want to make the tool "better" - in the same way that they don't want to make their garden shovel "better". They buy a quality tool, they use it 'till it no longer works... usually about 4 years... they donate it to a good cause. In other words, the kind of customers that Apple seems to want.... the evidence being that their systems work so well for this kind of group.

I'm not saying that you should be happy with Macs. Just that Macs are not designed to meet your needs. Ranting about them won't change that.... though it may do you good to get if off your chest.

But it would be like me ranting that I can't fit lumber in my Smart Car. I knew it had some limitations when I bought it.... so I take advantage of its benefits, and accept its limitations. Wishing I could fit a full-sized bicycle inside my Smart Car is kinda futile.
And yet Apple has a history in the past of designing it so that customers could upgrade parts as they go (RAM, HDD...etc.). So this isn't like something Apple has never done. It is the fact that Apple is now taking that decision away from the customer.

Btw, the Smart car could never fit lumber of any useful size in it safely. Never has never will. However the same can't be said of Apple computers being upgradeable.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:19 PM   #63
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Is there really room in the new Mac mini. It looks tight to me for space.
The case is the same as for the 2010 Mac Mini. The spot for the optical drive is still there. There have been people online who have successfully put an optical drive in the 2011 Mac Mini using existing parts. Apple simply chose not to include one. I don't really care that they don't include one, but at least have a $100 BTO option for it instead of pushing us out.

Killing the floppy drive is one thing. Floppies were quickly becoming useless. Optical disks are not useless.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:29 PM   #64
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The case is the same as for the 2010 Mac Mini. The spot for the optical drive is still there. There have been people online who have successfully put an optical drive in the 2011 Mac Mini using existing parts. Apple simply chose not to include one. I don't really care that they don't include one, but at least have a $100 BTO option for it instead of pushing us out.

Killing the floppy drive is one thing. Floppies were quickly becoming useless. Optical disks are not useless.
But then I assume that wont leave room for a SSD and a mechanical drive? I would rather have a 250 gb SSD and a 2TB drive personally.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 01:34 PM   #65
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But then I assume that wont leave room for a SSD and a mechanical drive? I would rather have a 250 gb SSD and a 2TB drive personally.
Correct. Do they make 2TB drives that are 9.5mm? I thought they were up to 1TB.

Personally, I'd rather have the optical drive and a 512GB SSD.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 03:09 PM   #66
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When I benchmarked my imac (mid-2010 refurb with SSD, optical drive, 2T HD, and 16 GB RAM) it scored lower than the scores I've been seeing around here for the new imacs. I forget what the scores were, sorry. Anyways, my conclusion is that while RAM is helpful (essential, love having it, and yes I actually use enough that I max it out), processor speed is where it's at. So, in your shoes, I'd go for the best processor, max out the RAM, and deal with it being an EHD. Oh, and I edit digital photography, so I've got LR, PS, and all my regular stuff going at once. My machine is awesome, but I would go forward and get the better processor. Just sayin'.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 06:43 PM   #67
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When I benchmarked my imac (mid-2010 refurb with SSD, optical drive, 2T HD, and 16 GB RAM) it scored lower than the scores I've been seeing around here for the new imacs. I forget what the scores were, sorry. Anyways, my conclusion is that while RAM is helpful (essential, love having it, and yes I actually use enough that I max it out), processor speed is where it's at. So, in your shoes, I'd go for the best processor, max out the RAM, and deal with it being an EHD. Oh, and I edit digital photography, so I've got LR, PS, and all my regular stuff going at once. My machine is awesome, but I would go forward and get the better processor. Just sayin'.
That's in a benchmark. In real world regular use for the vast majority of people they are rarely CPU constrained. Available RAM and disk access speed is where it's at.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 10:25 PM   #68
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Yes, Apple is trying to get rid of you. It's all about you.



Okay, I feel the same way. I love Apple's portables and I am not even sure which one I'll get next, because they offer several with compelling feature sets.

I will want a desktop upgrade first, however, and Apple doesn't make anything that interests me. I want a moderately sized, fast computer that can accomodate multiple internal hard disks and ideally an optical drive. When they update the Mac Pro, I'll consider that, though it's large and really out of my price range.

Other possibilities are to get a big external RAID box and just switch entirely to portables, or buy a PC and experiment with Windows and Linux to see if there is anything I want to use.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 06:09 AM   #69
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This problem isn't going to go away, and optical is not going to be around forever. Apple ditching internal optical is your early warning sign to fix that problem you have. The other OEMs will follow suit eventually, like they did with floppies.

You can either take the hint and do so, or do nothing, accumulate more discs and make the problem bigger.
man…. my words came out of your mouth!!! people are going crazy with the "no cd drive" problem. My problem was that i didn't even use CD's anymore, so I ditched my CD drive and got a 2nd HD for my MBP at macsales!!!

STOP STOPPING THE FUTURE!!! it is here already…..
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 06:56 AM   #70
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Yes, Apple is trying to get rid of you. It's all about you.



Okay, I feel the same way. I love Apple's portables and I am not even sure which one I'll get next, because they offer several with compelling feature sets.

I will want a desktop upgrade first, however, and Apple doesn't make anything that interests me. I want a moderately sized, fast computer that can accomodate multiple internal hard disks and ideally an optical drive. When they update the Mac Pro, I'll consider that, though it's large and really out of my price range.

Other possibilities are to get a big external RAID box and just switch entirely to portables, or buy a PC and experiment with Windows and Linux to see if there is anything I want to use.
Mac Mini or iMac+ Thunderbolt Raid > Mid Tower
Why do people insist on a decade old and obsolete design? My iMac has both SSD and 1GB internal and I never even think of using the internal platter. Everything goes on the 12TB Pegasus. Granted, not every one can do the Pegasus, but I use a USB3 external with my rMBP and it is awesome. I also had an internal BluRay in my last iMac that I put in, but I alway used my external Pioneer full size external since it is so much faster than a slot load, plus I can put whatever drive I want in it. Yet all this is on the shelf under the desk and I never even think of it unless I need it.

The old non upgradable whine gets really old. No one upgrades laptops other than HD and Ram, and 90% of owners don't do that. The iMac is even less. Yes I have cracked into my last iMac a couple times to upgrade the Optical and HD, but since thunderbolt, my latest has been sitting on my desk over a year and I've never even thought about it.

I thought when I went from my MacPro to iMac I would miss the flexibility as I was always swapping parts in the Pro, but I just haven't had the need with today's fast external options.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:19 PM   #71
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Some of the posts in this thread are really interesting. I especially like the ones that say 'I haven't needed an optical drive for years!' as though this is the way it is for everyone. Some of us actually realize that CD's sound better than downloads.
1. Not claiming no one needs them. I used mine last week, for the first time in 6 months. However I am carrying it around with my MBP everywhere, when it could be battery.
2. Download/rip to lossless media files like FLAC if you're that obsessed. They are digitally exact copies of the original audio source. OR use an external drive.

You still have a choice if you want optical media - an external drive.

That you can purchase ONCE (if you want) for every machine you use.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 10:56 PM   #72
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I can see the direction, they want to get rid of anything with moveable parts, the HD being in transition. Even so, the new iMac did make me wonder if it is me or merely the shock of the new, like with the original iMac. I'm not a DJ, but I do need to have a CD drive for ripping the occasional CD, plus I have a lot of old backup disks which I want to be able to access. I have a really old PC and accompanying monitor I keep just so I can have a floppy drive in the unlikely event I need to read one of the old floppies I've got stored! I've put off going through them to check, I really should so I can get rid of both.

So while I feel ambivalent about the new iMac given that my current late-2007 model which gets a lot of usage all day every day is getting old and I get increasingly worried about it conking out, especially the HD which is the most likely to give in at some point. At least I know I can replace the HD on this model, and I have previously upgraded the RAM.

An external drive would be an additional expense, messy for what is supposed to be an all-in-one, and tie up one of the few ports an iMac has, although if I could get an affordable Thunderbolt one by the time I upgrade it might be acceptable.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 10:06 AM   #73
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1. Not claiming no one needs them. I used mine last week, for the first time in 6 months. However I am carrying it around with my MBP everywhere, when it could be battery.
2. Download/rip to lossless media files like FLAC if you're that obsessed. They are digitally exact copies of the original audio source. OR use an external drive.

You still have a choice if you want optical media - an external drive.

That you can purchase ONCE (if you want) for every machine you use.
I can totally understand pulling the optical drive from notebooks like the MacBook Air. Going thinner/lighter is great, and I'm all for it.

In a desktop, it makes no sense. They don't even offer it as a BTO. That's my point with this whole thing. I don't care if they don't offer it stock. A lot of people are going to say no to it anyway. But some of us still would like a built in optical drive, and in a machine like the Mac Mini and the iMac, it makes sense to offer it.

Like I've said before, I would have gladly forked over $100 for my 2011 Mac Mini for them to put an optical drive in it. Considering the tooling was already done, it's really puzzling why they wouldn't offer it.

And as for downloading in lossless, why would I do that when I have the CD sitting right there?
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 11:02 AM   #74
monkeybagel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnymike View Post
Get over myself? Why don't you lose the attitude.

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I have an external optical drive that I use with my laptop but I'd prefer an internal drive. Clearly that is not going to happen as Apple is dropping optical drives from it's entire line. Optical drives are going the same direction as the Dodo bird.
"Get over it"
"Get over yourself"
"Cool story bro"
"Optical is dead"

The most common, useless, and conceded replies on this board, and they're lots of them. Just ignore those punks.

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You could also do what I did, and just get a Mac Pro. That's the only professional desktop they make that I would own at this point.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 12:08 PM   #75
cnymike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by throAU View Post
This problem isn't going to go away, and optical is not going to be around forever. Apple ditching internal optical is your early warning sign to fix that problem you have. The other OEMs will follow suit eventually, like they did with floppies.

You can either take the hint and do so, or do nothing, accumulate more discs and make the problem bigger.
Yes, I know that technology marches forward. MO discs are history for instance along with a slew of other technologies.

Sometimes we are pushed into adopting newer technology a little faster than comfortable. Am I happy that I have a frigging basement full of CD's? No. Am I ready to give up my internal optical drive? Not yet. Maybe in a couple more years which is why I will likely buy a 27" 2011 iMac if I can find one in Apple Store as refurb.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
Truth of the matter is that you aren't getting one with an iMac unless you grab a refurb 2011. Apple is done with internals for the iMac. So if that is a deal breaker, grab that refurb fast.

I hear that. I've been checking every couple days and they aren't showing up as refurbs. Hopefully some will appear before going away forever.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
These are actually better. They can be faster and have features like laser scribe for placing labels on the disc.
I do not have a problem using an external for the reasons you cite. But there is a convenience factor that I am also trying to achieve.

The writing is on the wall though so I guess I'll just have to hope I can find a 2011 refurb or belly up to the bar and drink the new drink.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessica. View Post
Yes, their design decisions were based primarily on ensuring that they will get rid of you as a customer.
Certainly you and others who have made similar snarky replies can understand that I am not exactly serious, right?

It was intended as a remark to elicit response and dialog in the direction that Apple is heading (much in the same way that Microsoft has angered many with Windows 8.)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
Its odd that you need to have an internal drive.
To rephrase... I would prefer an internal optical drive. I don't technically "need" an internal optical drive.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Just curious why you might want 3 MBPs? If I was you and looking to upgrade the iMac, why not just buy a ATD to hook up your 15 MBP when you want a larger screen? Do you need 3 separate computers up and running at the same time?
I have 2 computers that I use when I DJ. One is the primary computer, the other is the backup. I do not use them for casual use, they are for work. The third MBP or iMac is for home/business use.
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