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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:02 AM   #1
CorvusCamenarum
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Racist violence in Michigan

So, is it a hate crime? I can't tell. I'm definitely not surprised that more of the major news organizations are declining to cover the union violence coming out of these protests.

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Early today[December 11, 2012], Clint Tarver, known as “The Hot Dog Guy” here in Lansing had his business attacked and destroyed by out of line and out of control protesters near the Capitol.

Everyone who has passed the hot dog cart knows what a kind and caring individual Clint is. He never fails to bestow a smile or friendly greeting. In no way [did] he provoke this attack, nor any of the behavior displayed toward him.
The use of racial slurs including n*****r and Uncle Tom is confirmed.

The good news is that almost $25,000 has been donated to help this guy rebuild his business.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:09 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
So, is it a hate crime? I can't tell. I'm definitely not surprised that more of the major news organizations are declining to cover the union violence coming out of these protests.

link



The use of racial slurs including n*****r and Uncle Tom is confirmed.

The good news is that almost $25,000 has been donated to help this guy rebuild his business.
Why do you think it was a hate crime? People seemed mad at him for catering in the Americans for Prosperity not because he was black. If it was a white guy I don't think things would've gone any different (well, aside from different insults as calling a white guy ****** or uncle tom doesn't make sense).
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:54 AM   #3
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Racist? No.

Just a bunch of moron criminals doing what moron criminals do.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 08:15 AM   #4
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I tend to be very skeptical of racism charges because they tend to devalue the larger argument, and generally find hate crime legislation to be morally abhorrent... there's a larger story of violence here. Unfortunately the last several years have shown us a widely disparate level of violence in right-leaning vs. left-leaning political movements. While leftist movements like Occupy Wall Street and the Michigan Union Teamsters protests often time include property damage including threats of firebombings and disturbing violence with people getting beaten, raped, even deaths at such events... similar right-leaning movements like the Tea Party have been almost completely violence free. Then again, maybe it's just the fault of the police? I'd say this data alone doesn't allow anyone to draw any hard and fast conclusions about these different groups of people... but the trends are a bit disconcerting and clearly a sense of entitlement (which serves as the ideological foundation behind many of these movements) is a pre-cursor and facilitator of violence between different economic classes.

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Old Dec 13, 2012, 10:32 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by classicaliberal View Post
I'd say this data alone doesn't allow anyone to draw any hard and fast conclusions about these different groups of people... but the trends are a bit disconcerting and clearly a sense of entitlement (which serves as the ideological foundation behind many of these movements)
You certainly have a point, that violence and the threat of violence does not validate a particular viewpoint and only serves to escalate the problem beyond rational thought. It's true too that these groups may feel a sense of entitlement, but the basis of which is protectionism, the Tea party doesn't want to pay more taxes, the pro-union movement doesn't want to loose pay and benefits.

Mathematically there's certainly an equilibrium to be had, but the vitriol of entitlement sets in when you realize that you have it good (deservedly or not) and somebody wants to take it away. A democratic society should be able to come to some sort of conclusion reflecting the will of the people, but I'm not seeing a lot of that in many countries any more.

More on the topic at hand:
Whatever it was that spurred the attack, those involved are just petty thugs and let down their cause. It smacks of wanton frustration probably reflecting their impotence to impact decisions that will affect their lives. Now they beat up a guy, who much like them was trying to make a living, and took a little chunk out of the progress humanity is making while distracting from the issue they want to support.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:52 PM   #6
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Now they beat up a guy, who much like them was trying to make a living, and took a little chunk out of the progress humanity is making while distracting from the issue they want to support.
His hot dog cart got smashed and some people yelled obscenities at him but I didn't see anything that said he was assaulted.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
So, is it a hate crime? I can't tell. I'm definitely not surprised that more of the major news organizations are declining to cover the union violence coming out of these protests.
Hate crime has particular limitations, it's not enough that the victim was black, nor that the culprits were white.

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link

The use of racial slurs including n*****r and Uncle Tom is confirmed.

The good news is that almost $25,000 has been donated to help this guy rebuild his business.
A blog is not a source, nor has the use of racial slurs been "confirmed." The victim, who appears to be the bystander to an attack on the Americans for Prosperity tent and not the target, and a witness who happens to work for AFP both claim that protestors used racial slurs.

Try this one

That said, the people who attacked the AFP tent are idiots, striking blindly out of frustration. They shouldn't have cut down the tent, yelled at Tarver, nor stolen laptops and cellphones.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
His hot dog cart got smashed and some people yelled obscenities at him but I didn't see anything that said he was assaulted.
Fair enough, but instead of "beat up" is assaulted the right word here? vandalized?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:52 PM   #9
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Fair enough, but instead of "beat up" is assaulted the right word here? vandalized?
Let's go for accuracy: "Witnesses and Internet videos show protesters, some wearing union clothes, using knives or box cutters to cut the tent's ropes.

Clint Tarver, owner of Clint's Hot Dog Cart, said he was trapped inside as the tent came down and damaged about $400 in catering equipment."

Etc.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:09 PM   #10
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Fair enough, but instead of "beat up" is assaulted the right word here? vandalized?
His property was vandalized but he was not harmed. I'm just trying to draw the distinction that his property was damaged but he was not attacked.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 05:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LethalWolfe View Post
His hot dog cart got smashed and some people yelled obscenities at him but I didn't see anything that said he was assaulted.
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Originally Posted by Raid View Post
Fair enough, but instead of "beat up" is assaulted the right word here? vandalized?
Does this help at all.

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From a legal standpoint, assault and battery often form one charge against a suspect. However, some suspects may merely be charged with assault. Anyone who is charged with battery, however, is essentially also guilty of assault.

The difference between assault and battery lies in the definition of the terms. In legalese, assault is any reasonable threat to a person. The person who is committing the assault does not have to actually touch a person. But a reasonable and immediate threat to the person being assaulted must exist for a claim of assault. Battery, on the other hand, requires contact.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu
A blog is not a source, nor has the use of racial slurs been "confirmed." The victim, who appears to be the bystander to an attack on the Americans for Prosperity tent and not the target, and a witness who happens to work for AFP both claim that protestors used racial slurs.
If he wasn't a target, then at whom were people yelling n****r? I've got it - someone's uncle who just so happened to be named Tom was in attendance.

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Originally Posted by ugahairydawgs
Racist? No.

Just a bunch of moron criminals doing what moron criminals do.
Would you say the same thing had this happened at a Tea Party event? I'm guessing that if that were the case, the alphabet soup of major media outlets wouldn't let us hear the end of it (and neither would this forum), confirmed or not by two witnesses. However, since the union thugs are on the "correct" side of things it gets swept under the rug.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 11:04 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Would you say the same thing had this happened at a Tea Party event? I'm guessing that if that were the case, the alphabet soup of major media outlets wouldn't let us hear the end of it (and neither would this forum), confirmed or not by two witnesses. However, since the union thugs are on the "correct" side of things it gets swept under the rug.
Yes. Makes no matter to me from which side of the political spectrum stuff like this occurs. You do something like this and you should be locked up....period.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 12:48 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Would you say the same thing had this happened at a Tea Party event? I'm guessing that if that were the case, the alphabet soup of major media outlets wouldn't let us hear the end of it (and neither would this forum), confirmed or not by two witnesses. However, since the union thugs are on the "correct" side of things it gets swept under the rug.
Precisely. The property that was destroyed, the people that were beaten and assaulted, the death threats, all of that was "OK" because "they deserved it". Even though they were assembled peacefully, and did nothing to provoke the attack, they still "deserved it". The mind of a leftist union worker is a warped place indeed.

Here's some video of the assault, showing the true colors of these disgusting union thugs:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/202868885...st-in-michigan
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 02:50 PM   #15
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The mind of a leftist union worker is a warped place indeed.
So is the mindset of a right-wing tea partier who threatens to bring guns to the next rally.

Both abhorrent behaviours detract from the argument. Yet instead of dismissing these nut jobs, these detractors are paraded in front of the issue so we all end up talking about moronic extremists instead of the issue. Blatantly taking one side and acting hurt over scars that never felt a wound is getting really tired.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 03:27 PM   #16
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If he wasn't a target, then at whom were people yelling n****r? I've got it - someone's uncle who just so happened to be named Tom was in attendance.
Re-read the sentence. I said he wasn't the target of the vandalism on the tent, by all accounts. That said, the people who called him Uncle Tom and ****** are cheesedicks.

Quote:
...Would you say the same thing had this happened at a Tea Party event? I'm guessing that if that were the case, the alphabet soup of major media outlets wouldn't let us hear the end of it (and neither would this forum), confirmed or not by two witnesses. However, since the union thugs are on the "correct" side of things it gets swept under the rug.
This comment comes out every time. Your favorite story won't be covered because of logistics and news value. First, any news agency worth its salt is going to do some independent reporting, which takes time, especially if you don't have the right people on the ground.

A couple of guys getting into to a row and cutting down a tent just isn't that interesting, especially compared to other stories happening this week.

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Originally Posted by dime21 View Post
Precisely. The property that was destroyed, the people that were beaten and assaulted, the death threats, all of that was "OK" because "they deserved it". Even though they were assembled peacefully, and did nothing to provoke the attack, they still "deserved it". The mind of a leftist union worker is a warped place indeed.
No one was beaten or assaulted in the tent incident—though the "hot dog guy" was insulted.

But, this:

Quote:
...Here's some video of the assault, showing the true colors of these disgusting union thugs:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/202868885...st-in-michigan
...is different.

Two things. The group of people who attacked him are a bunch of *******s. You can yell (though the gun screaming about guns sounds psychotic), but you shouldn't lay hands on someone.

That said, who shot the video and edited it? Why does it cut just before the assault on Crowder? And, why does Crowder keep engaging someone who is saying "get the **** out my face!"

A journalist is there to record and interview, but Crowder accuses the men of "hurting" a woman and keeps his hands up while simultaneously getting very close to people.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 04:15 PM   #17
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can i ask is it racist when black people call each other the n word? i find it weird actually when in the uk white people have started calling each other it.

i think the term of the n word has now changed and should no longer be classed as racist, if the colour of the race which deems it racist, starts to use it as a method of conversing with its own members of race, then why should it not be allowed for other coloured people to call them it aswell?

times have changed unfortunately the stance on racist views has not.

white person attacks black - white person is racist
black person attacks white - just an assault

and even clearer proof of this recently an indian muslim girl was attacked by a black man he ran up behind her and punched her.. muslim community calls it racist ... news calls it normal unprovoked attack

the media is the firestarter to everything they almost seem to control the way police charge people.

racism works both ways, iv never met anyone who wasnt racist, frankly i couldnt care less i think people are entitled to not like someone from a certain country or colour, why should we be forced to like a certain type of people.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 06:15 PM   #18
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people are entitled to not like someone from a certain country or colour, why should we be forced to like a certain type of people.
You don't have to like anybody, but you should at least try to be an equal-opportunities misanthrope.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 06:32 PM   #19
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That said, who shot the video and edited it? Why does it cut just before the assault on Crowder? And, why does Crowder keep engaging someone who is saying "get the **** out my face!"
If you prowl about the Fox site, you can find the full video (I was not able to play the one linked above). The man who attacks Crowder was shoved to the ground, and when he got up, he went after the person who seemed to be the problem.

(And the tent was for an AFP event, how is that significantly different from a bunch of Tea Shirts bagging?)
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