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Old Dec 13, 2012, 08:40 AM   #151
Confuzzzed
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More than that. 1999 was my first go. But this is not a pissing contest. You know the limitations of what you do. Thunderbolt, if used as it was designed to, will aid that. Unclatter the enterprise work desk, particularly where hotdesking is how an enterprise works...
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 08:49 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Confuzzzed View Post
More than that. 1999 was my first go. But this is not a pissing contest. You know the limitations of what you do. Thunderbolt, if used as it was designed to, will aid that. Unclatter the enterprise work desk, particularly where hotdesking is how an enterprise works...
How will it unclutter desks exactly ? My desk has a neat docking station on it right now, cables run to it and "Docking and undocking" is a very quick affair involving no cables at all.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:34 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
I consider the enthusiast motherboard market to be a niche within a niche, sorry.

Show me products. HP did claim Thunderbolt was a bad value for consumers last year and finally released a consumer ultrabook with it this summer. That is correct, don't spin it otherwise.
Which actually shows that HP have retracted their original silly stance when they couldn't get it. Asus, as one of the largest PC manufacturers, is hardly only selling to the enthusiast market. If they are including TB in their aftermarket motherboards, then you can be sure that we will see Asus products including TB.

So TB 1: KnightWRX 0

Quote:
And frankly, Thunderbolt really is a poor value, even this DS1 shows it. 249$ to save the trouble of plugging in 2 cables is not good value.
So was USB 1 when it came out. Also, with a product like this you're not just cutting down on plugging in 2 wires. I am not sure how you worked it out, but let's say I have an external monitor, mouse, keyboard, iToy dock or cable, ethernet and so forth. I can replace having to plug in all of those when I come home with just plugging in one cable and it's clearly more than two cables that I am replacing, depending on how many devices I use.

Where this product fails is the cheapening out - lack of FW, lack of multiple USB 3 ports and lack of TB pass-through.

As for a general statement of "poor value" - it really depends on how important and expensive your time is. I would expect someone like yourself to clearly see the value of a protocol such as Thunderbolt, even if all of the products that can utilise it have not been released yet. However, if I compare a 4 bay DAS that does not have TB to one that does, the price difference is actually not that much. TB is starting to gain momentum and we're starting to see more and more products coming out. Even if you just look at how many TB external drives are on the Apple store now compared to at the beginning of the year, you'll see the difference. As more manufacturers join in, prices will start to go down.

So let's call it a draw between Matrox and KnightWRX

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
If you can create a 'hub' you can split the TB signal. I suspect it's done by splitting the PCI-e 'lanes' contained within the TB signal, and simply re-integrating them inside the hub device.

Remember, Thunderbolt is simply an external PCI-e bus and DisplayPort connection. Anything that can be done with PCI-e can be done with Thunderbolt.
True.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:42 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manu chao View Post
Since these early TB ports where doubling as mDP ports, using USB 3 ports instead of them would have left the computers with no native external display port, not really a smart idea.
Or they could have left mDP and transitioned one or both of the USBs to 3.0, not to mention the other point: Apple's exclusive 1 year TB agreement (if such an agreement actual existed... I refer to it only on the basis of another poster stating that it did) is probably largely to blame for the lack of TB peripherals... once TB is broadly adopted in PCs, the market will def. be large enough for peripheral producers to start cranking these things out in volume, which will lead to price reductions.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:56 AM   #155
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Too bad there are so few ports on it. I would like a minimum of four USB and preferably ten. I don't want to have to plug and unplug devices. Waste of time and wears things out. Could use more other ports too.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:59 AM   #156
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 10:20 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by theSeb View Post
So TB 1: KnightWRX 0
Yawn, call me when TB becomes good value. TB is still -20000 if you ask me. It has long ways to go and unfortunately for it, people have gotten there first (USB 3).

My statements were all correct, not incorrect as you tried pointing out, don't deny it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theSeb View Post
Also, with a product like this you're not just cutting down on plugging in 2 wires.
Looking at my desk at home, right now I plug in 4 cables when setting down my MacBook Pro. 1 USB cable, 1 mini-din speaker connector, 1 Thunderbolt cable (actually a MDP to DVI adapter), 1 Magsafe 2 connector.

With the DS1, I would have to connect 2 of the 4, the USB and sound cable being plugged into the DS1.

250$ for the privilege. No thanks.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 11:21 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by ryanide View Post
Just stupid.

I'd rather buy a Thunderbolt LED and get better Peripheral connections:
Three powered USB 2.0 ports
FireWire 800 port
Gigabit Ethernet port
Thunderbolt port


It should have dual output Thunderbolt, Gigabit Ethernet, Audio In/Out, and at least 3 USB3.0 ports. Skip the HDMI and DVI.

Maybe Belkin will get it right.
The TB 27" is great. Have it hooked up to my MBP. Can't believe how great the resolution is.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:32 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by lordofthereef View Post
The last sentence in his statement kind of gives it away I think...
The first problem with wikus' statement is that thunderbolt accessories have been on store shelves for a while.
The second problem is that he doesn't back up his opinion that the execution was flawed.

I can certainly agree that it's a small selection.
I can certainly agree that they're typically expensive.
I can't agree with "2 years in, and I've still yet to see ONE SINGLE thunderbolt product on a store shelf."
I also can't agree with "Its Apple being stupid again, just like with Firewire and just like with all their other overpriced proprietary crap and how they executed the implementation of it."

Thunderbolt was not expected to be pervasive right now. Nor anytime in the next few years. It's not expected to be cheap either. And it's much faster than most Mac users need. If he had any engineering experience and intuition, he'd know that. Instead, he just whines online.

He might as well have complained that there's no USB 2.0 full/hi speed keyboards and mice. (a keyboard with a USB2.0 port on it is actually a USB 2 hub and a USB 1 keyboard in one enclosure.)

Thunderbolt is basically external and hot swappable PCI-E. Just like how the vast majority of Mac Pro users and PC users don't ever add a PCI-E card to their systems after purchase, I don't expect to see Thunderbolt everywhere except in niche deployments. Most people simply don't have the use for that much bandwidth, and using it for anything less is a waste of engineering time, energy, and customer's money. For those who actually need it, the cost isn't an issue because the money it saves you or earns you in your line of work is significantly higher than how much it cost to buy your dual SSD thunderbolt enclosure, or your 18 channel integrated audio processor, or whatever it is you're plopping down $3k for.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrinkma View Post
If you can create a 'hub' you can split the TB signal. I suspect it's done by splitting the PCI-e 'lanes' contained within the TB signal, and simply re-integrating them inside the hub device.

Remember, Thunderbolt is simply an external PCI-e bus and DisplayPort connection. Anything that can be done with PCI-e can be done with Thunderbolt.
PCI-E handles datas in packets, so hubs are actually part of the PCI-E spec to begin with.

So, as you suggest, one option is actually to just attach a PCI-E hub to the host TB port, then connect multiple TB transceivers to the other PCI-E hub ports.

There's probably a better way using just TB but since I haven't read the spec details, I don't know.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 03:47 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by theSeb View Post
Which actually shows that HP have retracted their original silly stance when they couldn't get it. Asus, as one of the largest PC manufacturers, is hardly only selling to the enthusiast market. If they are including TB in their aftermarket motherboards, then you can be sure that we will see Asus products including TB.

So TB 1: KnightWRX 0


So was USB 1 when it came out. Also, with a product like this you're not just cutting down on plugging in 2 wires. I am not sure how you worked it out, but let's say I have an external monitor, mouse, keyboard, iToy dock or cable, ethernet and so forth. I can replace having to plug in all of those when I come home with just plugging in one cable and it's clearly more than two cables that I am replacing, depending on how many devices I use.

Where this product fails is the cheapening out - lack of FW, lack of multiple USB 3 ports and lack of TB pass-through.

As for a general statement of "poor value" - it really depends on how important and expensive your time is. I would expect someone like yourself to clearly see the value of a protocol such as Thunderbolt, even if all of the products that can utilise it have not been released yet. However, if I compare a 4 bay DAS that does not have TB to one that does, the price difference is actually not that much. TB is starting to gain momentum and we're starting to see more and more products coming out. Even if you just look at how many TB external drives are on the Apple store now compared to at the beginning of the year, you'll see the difference. As more manufacturers join in, prices will start to go down.

So let's call it a draw between Matrox and KnightWRX

----------



True.
Both you and KnightWRX have some pretty strong points. But I'd have to side with KnightWRX in that the enthusiast market is niche and that for the mass majority of users, Thunderbolt adoption isn't cost-effective/"good value".

Just because Asus makes boards with Thunderbolt doesn't mean they'll make every device include Thunderbolt. It makes no sense. The effort necessary to add it in right now increases the cost significantly.

HP releasing an ultrabook with TB doesn't even invalidate their previous statement that TB isn't good value because ultrabooks are niche too. Ultrabooks are one case where TB makes sense because you have little option for adding expansion capabilities using other ports, including USB3. And you're paying a premium for an ultrabook by sacrificing expandability, repairability, and flexibility, for an very lightweight package.

USB 1 was pretty bad value in the beginning, yes. In time, with enough support and tech growth, it became cheap enough to provide people with good value. (back when USB1 was available, a 12 mhz processor to support data communications was much more expensive than now.)
For TB, Firewire, and dare I say even USB3, their time hasn't come yet. And may not truly be for a while, or ever.

(Outside of prepackaged SATA and SD/UHS bridge chips, there's no easy way to make use of USB3 at USB3 speeds because there's few microcontrollers which support it, and even at volume, the raw parts cost is like $30 last time I checked. And imagine the developer salary costs to integrate it.... Not surprised since USB3 resembles Firewire almost as much as it resembles USB2.)
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:22 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Arcady View Post
You can plug a miniDisplayPort monitor into the end of a Thunderbolt chain and it should work in most cases. That chain cannot include an Apple Thunderbolt display.
Incorrect. I had 13" MBP --> Apple T-bolt display --> Pegasus Raid T-Bolt --> Apple Cinema Display.

In the past before I used the cinema display I used a miniDisplayport-> DVI to connect to a 22" Dell ultrasharp.

You just can't go from t-bolt display directly to miniDisplayport.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 05:20 PM   #162
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Why in the world with all the effort to make a USB 3 port on the front did they put USB 2.0 ONLY ports on the back of it??? And why only 3 ports total? I've seen USB 3.0 hubs with 7 ports on them go for $49. Must I buy a hub to plug into this hub to get a decent number of ports? Even my Mac Mini has FOUR USB 3.0 ports on it.

I suppose the device would be useful for those that have a Thunderbolt Mac (e.g. the 2011 17" Macbook Pro) but no USB 3.0 ports on it. Even if you need another hub to get a decent number of ports, at least you have access to USB 3.0 if you need it. I don't know why Apple hasn't updated their monitor to include USB 3.0 for that matter. I've got three USB 3.0 devices already for my Mini (two 3TB hard drives and a 12x/16x/48x Blu-Ray/DVD/CD writer).
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 05:44 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by hchung View Post
PCI-E handles datas in packets, so hubs are actually part of the PCI-E spec to begin with.

So, as you suggest, one.
But, can you tell us where to buy a T-Bolt hub?

There are lots things that are theoretically possible - but the store shelves are empty except for broken promises.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 06:00 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by DarwinOSX View Post

Net books are junk.
Odd how useful mine is on vacations and certain business trips. I don't need a $2k MBP with me just to access the web and e-mail and a $200 machine is a heck of lot less liability than a $2k one if something happens. I use my MBP for recording music in a portable fashion and various local trips and around the house. A cheap netbook is perfect for not having to worry on vacation, IMO. One man's "junk" is another man's treasure, I suppose.

Quote:
Even though USB doesn't do remotely the things TB is capable
Capable and actually doing are two different things. The overhead costs on TB are just too high to justify it for most consumers. I have two 3TB USB 3.0 drives (the Thunderbolt version costs 3x as much and is less compatible with most computers out there if I needed to connect to someone else's computer. It is no faster on TB either since the drive saturates LONG before the bandwidth runs out). I also got a 12 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD writer for $69 with USB 3.0. Where is the equivalent TB drive? There isn't one and even if there were, it would probably cost well over $300 and again be no faster what-so-ever.

There are uses for TB, but the vast majority of consumer devices just aren't it. Thank goodness Apple came to their senses and have USB 3.0 in addition to TB now.

Quote:
It's just warming up. You will be wrong.
That's what I heard about FW800. There were quite a few FW400 devices (I have a hard drive and an audio interface that are both FW400 and many camcorders were FW400). I have one backup drive that is FW800. There really aren't a heck of a lot of other FW800 consumer devices out there and they often come at a premium just like TB (well maybe not QUITE that high).

Quote:
Agree. FW800 blows away USB 2 and years later USB 3 has barely reached parity with it.
Parity?? Please, FW800 is 800Mbit. USB3 is 5Gbit and even if you don't believe the theoretical maximum, even 1/2 of that is still 2x FW800. You have a very strange definition of parity, it seems.

More importantly, USB 3.0 is backwards compatible with USB 2.x and 1.x and costs nothing to add at this point (standard on current Intel chips). Zero cost is always going to be cheaper than significant cost (on both ends) as TB does.

Quote:
Plenty of FW 400 and 800 devices have been sold over the years and still are. FireWire is far from a failure. Only ignorant people would say that it is.
Only an ignorant person would say it's a raging success either. One or two hard drives at Best Buy for a few years hardly constitutes wide-spread distribution. It had some success in professional circles and I'm sure TB has a future there as well, but the idea that it will trounce USB3 just because it's faster is absurd. As long as you pay a 1.5x-3x premium for the same device with no benefits, it will go nowhere fast. I'm afraid fanatical wishful thinking is always going to trounce everything the rest of the world is doing even if it's not in touch with reality.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 06:08 PM   #165
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I just want a Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 adaptor so I can actually back up my computer at speeds faster than 2.0. Or a thunderbolt drive that's reasonably priced.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:02 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
But, can you tell us where to buy a T-Bolt hub?

There are lots things that are theoretically possible - but the store shelves are empty except for broken promises.
From what I can tell, hubs arn't currently available. The demand probably isn't there to justify it either.

Most interesting Thunderbolt devices I've seen wouldn't benefit from a hub because they'd be better off having the full bandwidth of the bus.

A TB hub is quite possibly useful, but there's typically better solutions right now than developing/using a TB hub... like this:
http://www.magma.com/thunderbolt
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 12:34 AM   #167
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Express card docks?

I'm surprised somebody doesn't make just an ExpressCard docking station with Video and Network or USB 3 as the only hard wired items.

The main problem with these devices is that Thunderbolt is really just a PCI-E extension cord. For a dock maker, they are basically building out a whole PC motherboard. But they don't get to use any of the integrated stuff a CPU chipset would have, they have to hunt down a PCI-E chip dedicated for each function. I think that is why these are spiraling out of price control. It would be like the old days needed $20 adapter cards for every connector type swamps the final bill.

If they made one with just the required ports like video pass thru, and USB 3 but added 2-3 ExpressCard slots then people could add their own... And Serial, Parallel, or any other crazy port they needed. That would bring initial cost down and people would get their DOCK so they don't have to connect 8 things at once to their laptops.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 08:06 AM   #168
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Why?

I really don't get it. I could take a USB 3.0 hub, a bunch of adapters (usb 2 ethernet, audio, video etc) and tuck it in a tupperware box. It would be both cheaper, smaller and more capable than this.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 07:04 PM   #169
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Interested in the evolution and implementation of TB, yes. Interested in buying this product, not even close. It's hard for me to imagine ever buying another device with USB 2.0 ports unless it was some kind of fleetIng stupid-low price deal on a TBD.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 11:05 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by mabhatter View Post
I'm surprised somebody doesn't make just an ExpressCard docking station with Video and Network or USB 3 as the only hard wired items.
List the Apples with ExpressCard that could potentially use such a dock.

Very short list.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mabhatter View Post
The main problem with these devices is that Thunderbolt is really just a PCI-E extension cord. For a dock maker, they are basically building out a whole PC motherboard. But they don't get to use any of the integrated stuff a CPU chipset would have, they have to hunt down a PCI-E chip dedicated for each function. I think that is why these are spiraling out of price control.
You get a gold star for putting the problem in easily understandable terms.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 05:12 AM   #171
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Open your eyes!

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Originally Posted by wikus View Post
The technology behind thunderbolt is fine. Its Apple being stupid again, just like with Firewire and just like with all their other overpriced proprietary crap and how they executed the implementation of it.

2 years in, and I've still yet to see ONE SINGLE thunderbolt product on a store shelf.
I dont know where you shop but my local apple store (Regent Street, London) has had a few thunderbolt drives in stock for several months, last month I purchased a Western Digital 4TB Thunderbolt Duo from them to replace 2 WD FW800 drives and boy it smokes "em. All my Aperture and Lightroom stuff works like a dream. Using the FW800 drives had become slow and unresponsive so despite the expense I am very happy!http://cdn.macrumors.com/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 05:28 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Pianoblack3 View Post
Thunderbolt is like the Blu-Ray of cables… in more ways than one.
You mean that Blu-ray has thousands of available titles that are often cheaper or at least the same price as on DVD?

How does that actually compare to Thunderbolt? Are there thousands of devices available that use Thunderbolt, where those are cheaper or at least the same price as the USB versions?
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:56 AM   #173
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pretty good vs. no competition yet

Looks pretty respectable except:

1. The specs suggest it is HDMI 1.3 for up to 1920x1080p, but I want HDMI 1.4 for future 4k displays.

2. The ports on the front are ugly. All always-connected ports should be on the back. If there were a bunch of USB3.0's on the front it would make sense, but you'll need to add an USB3.0 hub with this, so it'll be always connected, which means the back would be a better place for at least one USB3.0 port.

Re: T-bolt output pass-through: This dock seems designed for something like the MBR (MacBook Pro 15" with Retina display) which has 2 t-bolt ports, so it isn't very necessary to have a t-bolt pass-through on the dock -- the computer's other T-bolt can be used for that (except for people need a 2-display configuration via a hub). I prefer $250 price vs. $400 upcoming Belkin that has T-bolt pass-through.

Re: HDMI vs. DisplayPort: Most people will have an HDMI display going forward and not care about DisplayPort. HDMI KVM+USB switching devices will be common (I've got one using shared keyboard, video, & mouse with both a Windows PC and MBR), which is another reason to not want DisplayPort. (Very expensive DisplayPort KVM's are available, but would require the other Windows PC be replaced or upgraded to add a DisplayPort that it doesn't really need and most people won't want.)

Re: No Firewire: I can't imagine any value to firewire ports like the Belkin has. It was obsolete from the start (slow vs. eSATA or USB3.0 and unique to Apple which had tiny market share then), and T-bolt finally killed it. T-bolt + USB3 also kills eSATA for external HD's (even though USB3 sacrifices a little speed 5Gbps vs. 6Gbps for better connection flexibility and ubiquity - if you want top-top external HD speed you can pay double-price to use a T-bolt RAID drive or SSD instead). I don't want firewire ports on any newly designed products -- it's waste space & development effort & my money.

I'd give it a B+ or 4 stars out of 5 due to failure to support HDMI 1.4 and lack of a USB3.0 port on the back (and preferably moving the T-bolt input to the back or side). (For comparison, the upcoming Belkin also looks like a B+ / 4 star because it would require I use a Thunderbolt-to-HDMI adapter with it, it's overpriced at $400, and it includes an obsolete firewire port.)
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 11:59 AM   #174
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ok this pile of vomit is horrible, it looks cheap, and definitely will not complement my 17" MBP, dell ultrasharp 27"

Pros:
usb 3,
hdmi
x2 usb (big whoopi)

cons:
ugly design
one usb 3, at least x2 usb3 would justify the cost of this mess
hdmi limited to 1.3 - where is hdmi 1.4
no TB/DP pass through, so cannot daisy chain - epic fail
esata would of been better than the x2 usb2 ports
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 12:32 PM   #175
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Underwhelmed by thunderbolt. Scarce and expensive devices.

The thing I want most for my TB port is an adapter that turns it into USB 3, so that I'd get some use out of it.
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