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Old Dec 14, 2012, 05:26 PM   #126
spinedoc77
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Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post
Look, the point I've made over and over again has been that your dual purpose laptop sorta tablet is really just a laptop with minimal functioning as a touch based tablet.

And I've said that Photoshop is probably the only realistic use of a touch based legacy program that could completely ditch a keyboard, but I've worked with a lot of designers and they're not going to do any kind of serious work on a 10" tablet, correcting images or doing any significant photo retouching or creative work. Not to mention, when you're talking photo work, it's hugely taxing to the gpu and you're just not going to have the firepower needed in a W8 tablet to do this. I call it a red herring on your part.

You must have one heck of a giant usb hub to use all 425 million devices, including the 100 million mice and 100 million keyboards you have.

So, the W8 laptops, I mean tablets..., can run legacy programs using mouse and keyboard. That makes them a laptop. What programs will actually be usable with any kind of touch interface? Please explain to me how you can take a program written to be driven by keyboard and mouse and make it workable holding the tablet and inputting using your fingers. It's not possible, is it. Not in any way that makes sense at least. That's MS's bs - selling you on something that isn't even a usable attribute.

And because they've tried to make sure one use, the laptop mode, works they've then made compromises on having the tablet mode work optimally. Right? I'm not blowing smoke that they've designed around using this tablet mostly in landscape mode, even to the point (in MS's models at least) of using sub-pixels that can only increase perceived font sharpness in landscape mode, not portrait mode. Is that not a compromise?

And the need for two different versions of IE? And two versions that don't communicate together? Do you think they did that to give you more for the money?

You want and you seem to need a thin and light laptop that you can disconnect the keyboard from (at times and then you need to keep that somewhere, which of course is another compromise, but I digress) and that's great. I'm glad you can run legacy programs, since that really seems to be the only thing you want to do.
Wait I'm seriously confused. "Minimal functioning as a touch based tablet" just seems so far from reality I'm tempted to call trolling, except you honestly seem more intelligent than that. What is minimal about it? It does EVERYTHING that an ipad does, if you mean that the ipad is ALSO minimal functioning as a touch based tablet then ok that's fine, otherwise you are distancing yourself rapidly from reality.

Photoshop I don't disagree with you, but by the same token you are not going to do serious photoshop work on any halfway portable laptop, what's your point? With win8 you have the choice of using photoshop, you can naysay that choice, but I'd rather have choice than not have choice. Same for every other legacy windows program, something people have been accustomed to for what 30 years? As for red herring ... Survey says eeeeeeehhhh. Photoshop runs smoothly on the atom based win8 tablet I used, if you don't believe me there are reviews which note the same. Yep, I can be on the subway and pull out my 1024 level pressure sensitive Wacom stylus and work in full blown photoshop and yea I can get work done but I'm not a graphic designer.

No one said I had 425 million USB devices, duh? BUT I have the choice to use 425 million UsB devices, remind me again how many USB devices the ipad has the choice of using? Thought so.

As for legacy programs being on a touch tablet I have 2 answers, the same answers I've given you 20 times. 1: you can hook up a mouse and keyboard, you seem to take offense that I can use my win8 tablet as a laptop, I have no idea why. 2: it's VERY easy to use desktop legacy programs with touch, you can teach a monkey some pretty complicated things I'm sure I could teach you how to use a touch tablet as well. Sorry, this was probably the most confusing of your diatribes. MS isn't even selling consumers on that.

As for landscape mode, once again I won't argue with that, I'm certainly not in love with their portrait mode. But firstly the wide landscape mode is MUCH better for computing, so there is a give and take in functionality, especially when you consider having multiple windows open. As for the fonts I notice zero difference in portrait mode, but I'll let those with a magnifying glass chime in. You are seriously grasping at straws if that's all you can come up with as a shortcoming.

2 versions of IE is completely stupid, won't argue there.

Sure I want a tablet AND a laptop, I don't understand why you want to dictate how I use it? It does both functions with NO compromise beyond an ipad and a 11" MacBook Air, which is exactly what I replaced, in fact the synergy gives me more than the 2 separate devices ever did. Compromise came more when I had the 2 devices.

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Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
A device that can be both full laptop and a tablet may be an ideal, but what Apple did was prove that a tablet device doesn't need to do everything that a laptop can do in order to have a place in our lives.

And if Win8 devices are really fully functional TODAY, why are you typing this on an iPad mini? If laptop/tablet hybrids are as great as you are saying they are, wouldn't you be using a hybrid instead of a mini?

And I imagine you'll probably say something about how, in certain circumstances, the mini's size and portability makes it a more convenient device than the hybrids, which I think can't get as small as a mini, because if they do they'd be too small to function as a laptop. In which case, we are back to the consumer carrying two devices -- but now it's a hybrid + mini, whereas before it was laptop + full-size iPad. Overall reduction in size and weight, but still carrying two devices.

And I think that's how it will be in the foreseeable future. Most of us will keep walking around with three devices -- smartphone, tablet, and a notebook. Win8 might turn the notebook into a laptop/tablet hybrid, and for some of us the tablet might be an e-ink reader. But the "need" for a middle device between the laptop and smartphone isn't going away -- it's the device we relax with, and do light productivity tasks with. And full desktop OS is overkill for such a device.
I agree, the dumb tablets like the iPads will probably always have a place for those who need extreme simplicity, but many of us do need a full OS.

I'm using an ipad mini because it fits in my pocket and I'm out and about. If MS made a 7.9" win8 tablet you can bet the mini would be on Craigslist immediately. I don't disagree with you, currently win8 would never work on a 7.9 tablet, maybe in the future when they fix metro, but not right now.

But I highly disagree with converging devices, there is no reason you can't combine your laptop and tablet into one device. There will be many form factors and sizes to satisfy most hardware needs. We went backwards in some ways with the iPads by being required to carry yet another device, win8 brings us back to a point where we can carry one device instead of 2. That's the beauty of win8, if you don't need the desktop you can turn it right into a dumb tablet via Metro and not even know desktop exists, simple but profound.
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Old Dec 14, 2012, 10:47 PM   #127
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Dumb tablet. That's just as funny as your calling me a possible troll. Dumb is what MS thinks the future is. Times have changed. Computers don't need to be what they were for the past 20 years and Apple has proven that with the iPhone and iPad. I assume you call the iPad dumb because it can't be a laptop. And run desktop applications.

You sound like someone who doesn't want to move forward. You want what you know and you're willing to accept sticking with the past if it means you don't have to change.

I can guarantee you that those programs you're using today will find their way onto iOS as a tablet version, at least they better if the companies that created them want to survive. They won't be dumb, but rather adapted to do the same thing in a different way. I say those companies not moving toward offering tablet versions of programs are the ones that are dumb.

No, the iPad can't run programs created for pc's, but the W8 tablets can't really run these programs either, other than in traditional desktop mode, forcing you to turn your tablet into a laptop.

And you keep using the Wacom pen and tablet example. What else can a W8 tablet do? In tablet mode. Holding it in portrait mode? Or switching from portrait to landscape and back without negatively effecting font size or scale?

Choice is great and options are great, but sometimes, maybe even all the time, you need to give up something in order to move forward and get something even better than you thought possible.

I'm one that is willing to break what I'm using in order to move forward and create something new, but I understand not everyone can be like that.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 06:35 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post
Dumb tablet. That's just as funny as your calling me a possible troll. Dumb is what MS thinks the future is. Times have changed. Computers don't need to be what they were for the past 20 years and Apple has proven that with the iPhone and iPad. I assume you call the iPad dumb because it can't be a laptop. And run desktop applications.

You sound like someone who doesn't want to move forward. You want what you know and you're willing to accept sticking with the past if it means you don't have to change.

I can guarantee you that those programs you're using today will find their way onto iOS as a tablet version, at least they better if the companies that created them want to survive. They won't be dumb, but rather adapted to do the same thing in a different way. I say those companies not moving toward offering tablet versions of programs are the ones that are dumb.

No, the iPad can't run programs created for pc's, but the W8 tablets can't really run these programs either, other than in traditional desktop mode, forcing you to turn your tablet into a laptop.

And you keep using the Wacom pen and tablet example. What else can a W8 tablet do? In tablet mode. Holding it in portrait mode? Or switching from portrait to landscape and back without negatively effecting font size or scale?

Choice is great and options are great, but sometimes, maybe even all the time, you need to give up something in order to move forward and get something even better than you thought possible.

I'm one that is willing to break what I'm using in order to move forward and create something new, but I understand not everyone can be like that.
Yes the ipad is a dumb tablet to me, I can't run office, photoshop or any other windows program on it, I can't run any of my proprietary health care programs on it either. Pretty much all I can do is browse the web and look at Facebook. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. Apple has not proven what you say, far from it, otherwise desktops and laptops would be running iOS, but they are not, they are running....gasp...windows and osx. What apple proved is that consumers wanted to consume media on the go. That consumers wanted to take a full OS on the go was already proven when laptops were invented, the technology hasn't been there for tablets to do the same until now. I'm more than willing to move forward, and having a FULL OS with me on a tablet form factor is a huge move forward for me both personally and in my business.

As for the programs which will find their way to an ipad, yes I agree with you but windows will also meld those programs into metro as well, and most likely much sooner than iOS so your point falls quite flat there. This is from a company that made us wait 2 years for cut and paste. But you speak in absolutes, the world doesn't run like that. In reality iOS will still be very popular, as android will and they will continue to refine and improve. Win8 tablets will serve as a beneficial catalyst to push them to improve, competition is a good thing.

Yes win8 tablets can run legacy programs in tablet mode, you keep espousing this mistaken pov, and it is exactly that, mistaken. If you lived nearby I'd buy you a beer so I could show you first hand how to do this, although I would think common sense would be enough.

I don't understand your criticism of the Wacom input? It's a pretty amazing feature IMO even if you don't agree, put a Wacom digitizer on the ipad and see how many consumers go crazy over it. As for the fonts I don't see an iota of difference when in portrait mode, I don't doubt that technically you are correct but I have yet to see a mainstream review that says this is an issue, it's basically grasping at straws.

As for moving ahead you still haven't explained how I am not moving ahead with my win8 tablet versus the ipad other than some nebulous complaint about the fonts. Seriously, I can run my tablet exactly the same as an ipad so I cannot fathom what argument you would have against it.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:51 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
Yes the ipad is a dumb tablet to me, I can't run office, photoshop or any other windows program on it, I can't run any of my proprietary health care programs on it either. Pretty much all I can do is browse the web and look at Facebook. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. Apple has not proven what you say, far from it, otherwise desktops and laptops would be running iOS, but they are not, they are running....gasp...windows and osx. What apple proved is that consumers wanted to consume media on the go. That consumers wanted to take a full OS on the go was already proven when laptops were invented, the technology hasn't been there for tablets to do the same until now. I'm more than willing to move forward, and having a FULL OS with me on a tablet form factor is a huge move forward for me both personally and in my business.

As for the programs which will find their way to an ipad, yes I agree with you but windows will also meld those programs into metro as well, and most likely much sooner than iOS so your point falls quite flat there. This is from a company that made us wait 2 years for cut and paste. But you speak in absolutes, the world doesn't run like that. In reality iOS will still be very popular, as android will and they will continue to refine and improve. Win8 tablets will serve as a beneficial catalyst to push them to improve, competition is a good thing.

Yes win8 tablets can run legacy programs in tablet mode, you keep espousing this mistaken pov, and it is exactly that, mistaken. If you lived nearby I'd buy you a beer so I could show you first hand how to do this, although I would think common sense would be enough.

I don't understand your criticism of the Wacom input? It's a pretty amazing feature IMO even if you don't agree, put a Wacom digitizer on the ipad and see how many consumers go crazy over it. As for the fonts I don't see an iota of difference when in portrait mode, I don't doubt that technically you are correct but I have yet to see a mainstream review that says this is an issue, it's basically grasping at straws.

As for moving ahead you still haven't explained how I am not moving ahead with my win8 tablet versus the ipad other than some nebulous complaint about the fonts. Seriously, I can run my tablet exactly the same as an ipad so I cannot fathom what argument you would have against it.
That's criticism of those companies, who have not adapted their programs to these devices, not of the device themselves. Many people do real work on iPads - it just takes adapting the software they need to that interface. In many cases the interface improves with the transition.

Again, I am extremely skeptical that laptops and tablets will ever converge in the way you keep insisting. Your wants are an extremely small minority. Tablets are converging on the 7-9" screen and laptops to the 13-15". There is no way to bridge that physical gap in a way that doesn't tremendously compromise one experience or the other.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 10:06 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
That's criticism of those companies, who have not adapted their programs to these devices, not of the device themselves. Many people do real work on iPads - it just takes adapting the software they need to that interface. In many cases the interface improves with the transition.

Again, I am extremely skeptical that laptops and tablets will ever converge in the way you keep insisting. Your wants are an extremely small minority. Tablets are converging on the 7-9" screen and laptops to the 13-15". There is no way to bridge that physical gap in a way that doesn't tremendously compromise one experience or the other.
Thank you. Spinedoc wants what he wants and believes what he believes and that's fine.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
Yes the ipad is a dumb tablet to me, I can't run office, photoshop or any other windows program on it, I can't run any of my proprietary health care programs on it either. Pretty much all I can do is browse the web and look at Facebook. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. Apple has not proven what you say, far from it, otherwise desktops and laptops would be running iOS, but they are not, they are running....gasp...windows and osx. What apple proved is that consumers wanted to consume media on the go. That consumers wanted to take a full OS on the go was already proven when laptops were invented, the technology hasn't been there for tablets to do the same until now. I'm more than willing to move forward, and having a FULL OS with me on a tablet form factor is a huge move forward for me both personally and in my business.

As for the programs which will find their way to an ipad, yes I agree with you but windows will also meld those programs into metro as well, and most likely much sooner than iOS so your point falls quite flat there. This is from a company that made us wait 2 years for cut and paste. But you speak in absolutes, the world doesn't run like that. In reality iOS will still be very popular, as android will and they will continue to refine and improve. Win8 tablets will serve as a beneficial catalyst to push them to improve, competition is a good thing.

Yes win8 tablets can run legacy programs in tablet mode, you keep espousing this mistaken pov, and it is exactly that, mistaken. If you lived nearby I'd buy you a beer so I could show you first hand how to do this, although I would think common sense would be enough.

I don't understand your criticism of the Wacom input? It's a pretty amazing feature IMO even if you don't agree, put a Wacom digitizer on the ipad and see how many consumers go crazy over it. As for the fonts I don't see an iota of difference when in portrait mode, I don't doubt that technically you are correct but I have yet to see a mainstream review that says this is an issue, it's basically grasping at straws.

As for moving ahead you still haven't explained how I am not moving ahead with my win8 tablet versus the ipad other than some nebulous complaint about the fonts. Seriously, I can run my tablet exactly the same as an ipad so I cannot fathom what argument you would have against it.
You say you can't run word or excel on the ipad. I've opened, edited, saved and sent both word and excel files from my ipad. And I'm quite sure, as I've noted, photoshop on a tablet is not capable of doing what it can on a proper laptop or desktop. That's why smart companies adapt their software to the form factor, input method and computing power of a tablet OS, like iOS. iOS shouldn't run on a desktop or laptop as you suggest. That's just not smart thinking as is being proven out by the blunder that is W8.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 12:00 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
That's criticism of those companies, who have not adapted their programs to these devices, not of the device themselves. Many people do real work on iPads - it just takes adapting the software they need to that interface. In many cases the interface improves with the transition.

Again, I am extremely skeptical that laptops and tablets will ever converge in the way you keep insisting. Your wants are an extremely small minority. Tablets are converging on the 7-9" screen and laptops to the 13-15". There is no way to bridge that physical gap in a way that doesn't tremendously compromise one experience or the other.
But my entire point is they don't have to converge, and I'm not even necessarily arguing that point. My win8 tablet can do anything the ipad can so I can't understand the argument against it. You can do real work on anything, but is it optimal, and yes that includes a win8 tablet obviously. I can do "real" work on my ipad mini, but do I want to or does that satisfy my business needs? Maybe, maybe not, that's for the individual user to decide and my only point in this entire debate is that there are plenty of people out there who desire a full windows solution on their tablet, I'm not sure why anyone would argue that isn't the case.

Once again I'm not arguing the death of the laptop, I never was. You may need a10" tablet and a 15" laptop, or you may make do with a 15" tablet which doubles as a laptop, each user is different. For my needs I use a 10" win8 tablet for on the go computing, at work and home I hook it up to a monitor for desktop like functions, and at times I eschew all of that and just slip my ipad mini into my pocket because I want my hands free.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post
Thank you. Spinedoc wants what he wants and believes what he believes and that's fine.

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You say you can't run word or excel on the ipad. I've opened, edited, saved and sent both word and excel files from my ipad. And I'm quite sure, as I've noted, photoshop on a tablet is not capable of doing what it can on a proper laptop or desktop. That's why smart companies adapt their software to the form factor, input method and computing power of a tablet OS, like iOS. iOS shouldn't run on a desktop or laptop as you suggest. That's just not smart thinking as is being proven out by the blunder that is W8.
I still can't run word or excel on my ipad. I can compromise and run Pages or another app, but it's not Office. Keep in mind I have certain plugins which require ms office. I also need handwriting recognition for my uses.

Photoshop on a win8 tablet runs the SAME as on a laptop, please re read that again, is is with no adapting needed, although as we go forward obviously software will evolve into the best form factor. The ipad isn't the best touch tablet form factor contrary to your opinion. Sometimes you need stylus input for example, and this works better on a tablet than a laptop for example.

I never suggested iOS should run on a laptop/desktop, keep up. I pointed out that if your logic was true then we would have iOS on laptops, but we don't. If iOS is such a paradigm changer why isn't it the OS for every device? If my win8 tablet can do anything the ipad can do then why do you have such an issue with it?
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 12:13 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by jmgregory1 View Post
Dumb tablet. That's just as funny as your calling me a possible troll. Dumb is what MS thinks the future is. Times have changed. Computers don't need to be what they were for the past 20 years and Apple has proven that with the iPhone and iPad. I assume you call the iPad dumb because it can't be a laptop. And run desktop applications.

You sound like someone who doesn't want to move forward. You want what you know and you're willing to accept sticking with the past if it means you don't have to change.

I can guarantee you that those programs you're using today will find their way onto iOS as a tablet version, at least they better if the companies that created them want to survive. They won't be dumb, but rather adapted to do the same thing in a different way. I say those companies not moving toward offering tablet versions of programs are the ones that are dumb.

No, the iPad can't run programs created for pc's, but the W8 tablets can't really run these programs either, other than in traditional desktop mode, forcing you to turn your tablet into a laptop.

And you keep using the Wacom pen and tablet example. What else can a W8 tablet do? In tablet mode. Holding it in portrait mode? Or switching from portrait to landscape and back without negatively effecting font size or scale?

Choice is great and options are great, but sometimes, maybe even all the time, you need to give up something in order to move forward and get something even better than you thought possible.

I'm one that is willing to break what I'm using in order to move forward and create something new, but I understand not everyone can be like that.
I don't understand so much rage towards Windows 8 and Microsoft Surface. In fact, I find Microsoft's approach very interesting. You can't please everone, and all different form factors are around to prove that.

I wouldn't call the iPhone and the iPad an advancement over computers. They are not. An iPhone or an iPad cannot replace a desktop or a laptop computer. They may be useful for trivial tasks, web surfing, taking fast notes, and so on. And they are handy, because you can always carry an iPhone on your pocket.

But a real computer can multi-task, and that is something that iPhones and iPads cannot. You can't run apps side-by-side, at least not yet. And running apps side-by-side can be very useful for a lot of stuff.

In addition, the iPhone and the iPad don't provide enough horsepower to perform many tasks.

Plus, you can't use a mouse on the iPad. OK, the touch screen is great, but there are times when you just need to do some real precise work, and you have to be very efficient. You can connect a keyboard to the iPad so you can type faster and more accurately than on the touch-screen, but you can't connect a mouse to it. The small pointer of a mouse is much more precise than the tip of a finger, but iOS doesn't support mouses, at least yet.

So, while I agree that iPads and iPhones are great, they're just not yet up to the task. I wish my iPad could do anything my computer can. My laptop is heavy and cumbersome, heats too much and has poor battery life. I wish I could replace it with my iPad with its gorgeous IPS retina display, and I would use the great Apple Wireless Keyboard. I've tried, and I failed miserably at doing that, because the iPad doesn't support my needs. I wish Apple would release a beefed-up version of iOS that supports all the features I need. Perhaps it will, perhaps it won't. But Apple seems too focused on Facebook and other amenities to pay attention to real work.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
Yes the ipad is a dumb tablet to me, I can't run office, photoshop or any other windows program on it, I can't run any of my proprietary health care programs on it either. Pretty much all I can do is browse the web and look at Facebook. Nothing wrong with that, but it's the truth. Apple has not proven what you say, far from it, otherwise desktops and laptops would be running iOS, but they are not, they are running....gasp...windows and osx. What apple proved is that consumers wanted to consume media on the go. That consumers wanted to take a full OS on the go was already proven when laptops were invented, the technology hasn't been there for tablets to do the same until now. I'm more than willing to move forward, and having a FULL OS with me on a tablet form factor is a huge move forward for me both personally and in my business.

As for the programs which will find their way to an ipad, yes I agree with you but windows will also meld those programs into metro as well, and most likely much sooner than iOS so your point falls quite flat there. This is from a company that made us wait 2 years for cut and paste. But you speak in absolutes, the world doesn't run like that. In reality iOS will still be very popular, as android will and they will continue to refine and improve. Win8 tablets will serve as a beneficial catalyst to push them to improve, competition is a good thing.

Yes win8 tablets can run legacy programs in tablet mode, you keep espousing this mistaken pov, and it is exactly that, mistaken. If you lived nearby I'd buy you a beer so I could show you first hand how to do this, although I would think common sense would be enough.

I don't understand your criticism of the Wacom input? It's a pretty amazing feature IMO even if you don't agree, put a Wacom digitizer on the ipad and see how many consumers go crazy over it. As for the fonts I don't see an iota of difference when in portrait mode, I don't doubt that technically you are correct but I have yet to see a mainstream review that says this is an issue, it's basically grasping at straws.

As for moving ahead you still haven't explained how I am not moving ahead with my win8 tablet versus the ipad other than some nebulous complaint about the fonts. Seriously, I can run my tablet exactly the same as an ipad so I cannot fathom what argument you would have against it.
The iPad is really lacking in many ways. There are software that can be used to do some real work, but it's just not up to the task yet. But the iPad is a pretty new product (less than 3 years old) and its environment is still maturing. Given its popularity, it can have developers making lots of productivity apps for it, and it may become a platform for real work in the next few years. Provided, of course, that Apple puts more power into iOS. Android may also go the same route. For now, however, you're right: Windows is still the only platform that can do it all. The problem with Windows tablets is that Intel processors consume too much battery and tend to be heavier than Android and iOS powered ARM counterparts. There are Windows RT tablets, but they are not yet a serious alternative, as they can't run Wintel applications.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 01:06 PM   #133
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I don't understand so much rage towards Windows 8 and Microsoft Surface. In fact, I find Microsoft's approach very interesting.
I find it interesting, but nowhere near perfect as of yet. I could say the same thing of Apple and iOS.

To me, they represent the two extremes. Microsoft still relies too much on the desktop setup for it to be a perfect fit for touchscreen devices. Even with a stylus, it's too cumbersome to use without falling back to a keyboard and mouse. This isn't good for a touchcentric device.

I give MS props for not wanting to oversimplify, but they've still got a helluva lot of tailoring and streamlining to do before I'd consider it anywhere close to perfect.

Apple is on the other end of the spectrum. Arguably, they've got the best touchcentric setup of the bunch. The entire OS is designed to be easily used with your fingers. Problem is, it's too gimped. I hate the app based setup it's built upon. OSes should be built around accessing data, where all your files are pooled into a centralized file structure, and easily accessed by a multitude of programs. The way it's set up now, if I want to get my pictures onto my iPhone, everything eventually has to be funneled through the Photos app. It's stilted, slow, and not at all elegant.

I give Apple props for making a simple and well designed touch OS, but their setup only works if you assume the Apple made apps and services are perfect for everything, and you'll never need anything else. If you do, you'll see that iOS isn't quite so perfect, and considerably more clumsy than it should be.

Really, from what I've seen, Android comes closest to being the perfect mix of the two. It's built around touch, but doesn't silo everything quite so anal retentively as iOS and still has a file system to fall back on. You can even pick default apps. Who would've thunk? The only problem with it is it's performance is a little lacking in comparison to the other two. It's not horrible by any stretch, but it's obvious Google doesn't have the same amount of experience building an OS as efficiently as MS and Apple do.

So what does all this griping and nitpicking mean? It means we're still in the baby days of the tablets, and the future is hardly written in stone. Right now, I'd say Apple offers the best overall "tablet experience", but it does so at the expense of flexibility. Improvements have been made to it recently, but the iPad feels like the device you use between computers rather than something that can be used by itself. MS and Google have more standalone devices, but sacrifice a little ease of use getting there.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 07:49 PM   #134
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No, the iPad can't run programs created for pc's, but the W8 tablets can't really run these programs either, other than in traditional desktop mode, forcing you to turn your tablet into a laptop.
Given how many people I see use their iPads in the manner you're describing, propped up with a case and tapping on the screen in a very laptop-like position, or by using a Bluetooth keyboard, I'd say you're proving spinedoc's point for him.

MS' position is that you don't have to give up anything to 'move forward' (whether you think tablet computing is moving forward is a matter of opinion that not everyone is going to share), and that if you want to only use tablet apps, great, you're covered, but if you want to also use the multitude of Windows desktop programs that have been developed over the years, then that option is also available to you. You don't have to have a tablet for tablet apps and a laptop/desktop for desktop apps, both software worlds are available to you.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:27 PM   #135
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Given how many people I see use their iPads in the manner you're describing, propped up with a case and tapping on the screen in a very laptop-like position, or by using a Bluetooth keyboard, I'd say you're proving spinedoc's point for him.

MS' position is that you don't have to give up anything to 'move forward' (whether you think tablet computing is moving forward is a matter of opinion that not everyone is going to share), and that if you want to only use tablet apps, great, you're covered, but if you want to also use the multitude of Windows desktop programs that have been developed over the years, then that option is also available to you. You don't have to have a tablet for tablet apps and a laptop/desktop for desktop apps, both software worlds are available to you.
Where do you see people using iPads in combination with keyboards? I have to say that when I see other people using iPads, which is mostly on trains and buses, they are invariably using the iPads *without* keyboard. But again, I don't spend much time in coffee shops, libraries, or other public locations where people have desktop surface avaiable to lay out iPads with keyboards.

In other words, what I'm saying is your personal experience doesn't prove one way or other which is the more common usage for iPads -- what we encounter is heavily biased depending on our personal daily routines.

As for Win8 providing both tablet and desktop experience, that's true enough, and may be desirable for some users, but it comes at a cost -- for instance, Surface Pro is thicker, heavier, runs hotter, and has shorter battery life than Surface RT. All because Surface Pro has to support the desktop experience, while RT only supports tablet apps. Apple bet that thinner, lighter tablets with long battery life with a limited feature set would find a wider audience than a device that tried to be both tablet and laptop at once, and so far, sales seems to be backing them up.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:55 PM   #136
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Where do you see people using iPads in combination with keyboards? I have to say that when I see other people using iPads, which is mostly on trains and buses, they are invariably using the iPads *without* keyboard. But again, I don't spend much time in coffee shops, libraries, or other public locations where people have desktop surface avaiable to lay out iPads with keyboards.

In other words, what I'm saying is your personal experience doesn't prove one way or other which is the more common usage for iPads -- what we encounter is heavily biased depending on our personal daily routines.

As for Win8 providing both tablet and desktop experience, that's true enough, and may be desirable for some users, but it comes at a cost -- for instance, Surface Pro is thicker, heavier, runs hotter, and has shorter battery life than Surface RT. All because Surface Pro has to support the desktop experience, while RT only supports tablet apps. Apple bet that thinner, lighter tablets with long battery life with a limited feature set would find a wider audience than a device that tried to be both tablet and laptop at once, and so far, sales seems to be backing them up.
In a lot of places- university classes and libraries over the past couple of years, coffee shops, on trains and buses, restaurants and so on. It's really common where I live and work, you're right in that it may not be the case everywhere, but it definitely is here. Obviously people don't mind doing it, nor do they feel that it's looking backwards using it in a laptop-like position. There's a reason laptops exist, and why people use their iPads in that fashion, it's very comfortable for long periods of typing and other input heavy activities. It's not a bad thing that the Surface offers that capability in an easily accessible way.

I agree that the Surface Pro brings compromises along with all the potential and power it offers. The Clover Trail Windows 8 tablets are actually a better example of a Windows 8 Pro tablet, they offer ARM-like battery life and full x86 compatibility. I don't think the Surface Pro will achieve its full potential for, at the very least, one more Intel chip generation. Haswell has the potential to greatly increase the Surface Pro's battery life, I think it will be a much stronger competitor from there on out.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 02:11 AM   #137
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Where do you see people using iPads in combination with keyboards? I have to say that when I see other people using iPads, which is mostly on trains and buses, they are invariably using the iPads *without* keyboard. But again, I don't spend much time in coffee shops, libraries, or other public locations where people have desktop surface avaiable to lay out iPads with keyboards.

In other words, what I'm saying is your personal experience doesn't prove one way or other which is the more common usage for iPads -- what we encounter is heavily biased depending on our personal daily routines.

As for Win8 providing both tablet and desktop experience, that's true enough, and may be desirable for some users, but it comes at a cost -- for instance, Surface Pro is thicker, heavier, runs hotter, and has shorter battery life than Surface RT. All because Surface Pro has to support the desktop experience, while RT only supports tablet apps. Apple bet that thinner, lighter tablets with long battery life with a limited feature set would find a wider audience than a device that tried to be both tablet and laptop at once, and so far, sales seems to be backing them up.
There is no cost, this is a common mistake in evaluating these products and I can only blame Microsoft for the confusion. The atom CPU win 8 tablets run desktop legacy programs smoothly, including biggies like photoshop and office. They are as thin as an ipad, have no fans, cost the same, and have equivalent battery life as an ipad.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 07:24 AM   #138
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I don't understand so much rage towards Windows 8 and Microsoft Surface. In fact, I find Microsoft's approach very interesting. You can't please everone, and all different form factors are around to prove that.
The rage is clearly coming from people who are Apple fans that seem to think that everyone (including software companies) needs to adapt to the way Apple does things. I think that is a strange point of view, myself. The biggest bonus with Windows 8 on a tablet and a PC is that a dev can essentially create the same application with MINOR tweaks to work on a tablet ecosystem and a desktop ecosystem side by side. With Apple's solution, one must write for iOS and then Windows/OSX on top of that. I have NEVER understood this love affair with the iPad and probably never will. It is unnecessarily limited.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 02:44 PM   #139
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Windows 8 and the hybrid laptop/tablet is the best thing to come out in the 30+ years I have been using computers.

I just picked up a Lenovo Yoga this weekend. It will replace my 5+ year old Acer PC, 15" MacBook Pro, and iPad 3 once I install all my MS programs. My needs were for a device that would be used as a touch-tablet ~ 66% of the time and a touchscreen-assisted laptop ~33% of the time. The MS Surface Pro was on my short list. I ultimately selected the Yoga because I wanted the bigger screen and the extra weight was not an issue because the Yoga can be placed on most any surface and the screen adjusted for optimum viewing.

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Old Dec 16, 2012, 03:30 PM   #140
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The rage is clearly coming from people who are Apple fans that seem to think that everyone (including software companies) needs to adapt to the way Apple does things. I think that is a strange point of view, myself. The biggest bonus with Windows 8 on a tablet and a PC is that a dev can essentially create the same application with MINOR tweaks to work on a tablet ecosystem and a desktop ecosystem side by side. With Apple's solution, one must write for iOS and then Windows/OSX on top of that. I have NEVER understood this love affair with the iPad and probably never will. It is unnecessarily limited.
Hey, someone with some sense on these forums! The iPad is great for what it is - but it is what it is and no amount of caterwauling by fanbois on this forum is going to change that. The Surface Pro is the start (yes the START) of something big (along with the other OEM's offerings in this space) and a very exciting one.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 03:52 PM   #141
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Battery life isn't that big of a deal. This would be a laptop replacement for me so I'd have it plugged in most of the time anyway.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 09:57 PM   #142
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The rage is clearly coming from people who are Apple fans that seem to think that everyone (including software companies) needs to adapt to the way Apple does things. I think that is a strange point of view, myself. The biggest bonus with Windows 8 on a tablet and a PC is that a dev can essentially create the same application with MINOR tweaks to work on a tablet ecosystem and a desktop ecosystem side by side. With Apple's solution, one must write for iOS and then Windows/OSX on top of that.
I definitely agree with this. It's a silly point of view as some companies are never going to create iPad versions of their programs. Some programs just won't work very well on an iPad, due to the input methods, or lack of computing power. There's also a stack of specialised Windows programs which aren't going to be making the move to iPad any time soon, thanks to a limited audience, the company having limited funds, or the company just having a total lack of interest in the iPad. Windows 8 Pro tablets give you access to all these programs and don't force you to carry around two devices, or to sit on your hands, waiting for a tablet version of a program that may never arrive.


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I have NEVER understood this love affair with the iPad and probably never will. It is unnecessarily limited.
I also fully agree with this, I think iOS is a great phone OS- it offers a stack of great programs, excellent performance and is well suited to the small screen experience. On a tablet, however, it just feels stupidly limited- tablets are big enough to be able to be used for more productivity tasks, yet the iPad features many apps which are just blown up versions of iPhone apps. Some apps take advantage of the larger screen and increased processing power, but many don't. Windows 8, in my opinion, offers a far better set of options and features for tablets.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:52 AM   #143
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It's not a matter of blaming Intel or any entity other than Microsoft. It's a technology that no one has asked for that's being released too soon. The current generation of Ultrabooks and tablet PCs all have better battery life in packages that aren't appreciably bigger. Who's this being marketed to? Someone who's on the go for brief periods during the day?
Not bigger? Ok, you show me a 900gram ultrabook with a lot better battery life. Seeing the lightest is around 1200gram, or almost a third heavier, good luck (oh and those have simular battery life Toshiba Satellite Z830-10J for example)


And people have used laptops or ultrabooks with such battery life for years, and all of a sudden that market never excisted? The blindness of some people always amaze me.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:18 AM   #144
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I still can't run word or excel on my ipad.
This is likely to change in the near future.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:24 PM   #145
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The iPad is really lacking in many ways. There are software that can be used to do some real work, but it's just not up to the task yet. But the iPad is a pretty new product (less than 3 years old) and its environment is still maturing. Given its popularity, it can have developers making lots of productivity apps for it, and it may become a platform for real work in the next few years. Provided, of course, that Apple puts more power into iOS. Android may also go the same route. For now, however, you're right: Windows is still the only platform that can do it all. The problem with Windows tablets is that Intel processors consume too much battery and tend to be heavier than Android and iOS powered ARM counterparts. There are Windows RT tablets, but they are not yet a serious alternative, as they can't run Wintel applications.
I don't think the iPad will ever have the quality of software you can find on a desktop or laptop. Apple's business model and their strategy of sacrificing software to monetize off hardware prevents it. The iPad is a great piece of hardware chained to a budget software market. The budget nature of the ecosystem prevents anything overly complicated from being developed for it and to me, it's like wasted potential.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 06:54 PM   #146
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I don't think the iPad will ever have the quality of software you can find on a desktop or laptop. Apple's business model and their strategy of sacrificing software to monetize off hardware prevents it. The iPad is a great piece of hardware chained to a budget software market. The budget nature of the ecosystem prevents anything overly complicated from being developed for it and to me, it's like wasted potential.
I think it's a waste of potential too. When I connected the iPad to an Apple Wireless Keyboard, I realized that it could be a really great computer, IF it had mouse support and support for multi-tasking. But it doesn't.

However, the iPad is less than 3 years old, and its "ecosystem" (people seem to really like to use this word lately, so perhaps should I) is still under development. The apps available today are much more complicated and feature-rich than they were 2 years ago. Although the iPad is still very limited, it has evolved a lot.

Google is certainly not capping the development of Android as much as Apple is doing with iOS. And Microsoft made a very capable Windows RT (even though there are quite few apps developed for it yet). If competition poses a threat to Apple, then it may find itself forced to loosen the limitations of iOS.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:12 AM   #147
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I also fully agree with this, I think iOS is a great phone OS- it offers a stack of great programs, excellent performance and is well suited to the small screen experience. On a tablet, however, it just feels stupidly limited- tablets are big enough to be able to be used for more productivity tasks, yet the iPad features many apps which are just blown up versions of iPhone apps. Some apps take advantage of the larger screen and increased processing power, but many don't. Windows 8, in my opinion, offers a far better set of options and features for tablets.
When the iPad came out I was 99% sure it would remain largely a consumer device. It CONSUMES media wonderfully, arguably better than the competition. As a production device, not so much, yet we still see companies adopting it. Is that because we haven't really had anything like it up until now? Who knows. I'd like to think that, but I have obviously been wrong before. The incredible response to every iPad launch, including the mini (which I was pessimistic about until I held it... NOW I feel there is an iPad made for the couch ) seems to be pointed in the other direction. I am curious what the surface pro might achieve, namely with companies. It will allow for the installation of legacy apps AND be a hardware/software combo that is supported by MS (something previously unheard of).
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:27 AM   #148
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WTF indeed. When I saw the first surface's keyboard dock I was thinking it would be a crappy laptop, and I guess I was right on that one.

Too bad, because I dig the idea. Virtual keyboards suck! However, multitasking in metro is the jankiest experience, even worse than iOS or Android. All 3 make me miss WebOS dearly when it comes to multitasking ><
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:30 AM   #149
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When the iPad came out I was 99% sure it would remain largely a consumer device. It CONSUMES media wonderfully, arguably better than the competition. As a production device, not so much, yet we still see companies adopting it. Is that because we haven't really had anything like it up until now? Who knows. I'd like to think that, but I have obviously been wrong before.
I would think that most companies adopting iPads build proprietary apps to fit their needs. For instance, the iPad would work nicely as a data input device out in the field, and each company would make a custom database app to suit their needs. Airlines are using iPads to hold flight manuals. In some other thread, I forget which one, a lawyer mentioned that he carries all relevant documents of cases he's working on his iPad, and he is also able to access many online legal resources from his iPad. It gives him a big advantage to have all relevant documents with him at all times.

Note that none of these usages replaces traditional computers, but nevertheless, they make people more productive than before.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 12:05 PM   #150
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Don't know why so many people think one or the other has to be fail

There is plenty of room in the market for both the Surface and the iPad tablets.

The iPad is a fantastic and successful consumer device. And while it may be common and mundane now, some of the initial magic it had is still there and it will continue to be a success for a long time. It also meets the needs of the vast majority of home users, who don't really need to run Office, Photoshop, and other heavy applications. Let's face it, most people need a web browser, mail, Facebook, and lightweight apps. (Same goes for Android tablets.) And while the Surface, netbooks, laptops, and even desktops can do all those things too, none do it with the same great combination of lightness, portability, and battery life of an iPad or Droid tablet.

The Surface Pro is filling a need that the iPad/Droid simply cannot hit. It runs Windows applications. It brings heavy processing to bear. It will integrate better in the Enterprise and it will be popular for those who prefer the more open computing environment of a desktop operating system. It's telling that the Surface doesn't even have an LTE option--it is a workhorse meant to be used where there is wi-fi, not a simple consumer device meant primarily for communication and entertainment.

Completely different tools for completely different purposes. There is room and need for both.

Most of this thread is nonsensical. It's like saying a wrench is better than a screwdriver because *you* need a wrench, while the other guy is saying a screwdriver is better because *he* needs a screwdriver.
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