To everyone complaining that iOS is stale and hasn't changed since 2007...

[tomjleeds]

Originally Posted by Dr McKay

OK that's not what I was trying to put across. You said that you hadn't used Android since a very early version. And you said something that android did. (I've never used a version that really do I don't know) I corrected you on the assertion that android presents you with a big confusing list. I've attached what happens when you select a file in more recent versions of Android. Hardly a confusing list.

Unless youre referring to the sharing option? That is a list, but still its hardly confusing. Anyone wanting to share something will already know what they want to share it with.

I wouldn't call Gingerbread that early...either way it's basically the same. In this case there aren't many options but it's not uncommon to have five or more.

The point is, while to you and me that's straightforward enough, to lots of people that genuinely is confusing. They just wanted to play a track and instead of it just doing that they've been presented with a window and some kind of decision to make oh no!

It sounds silly but it's true.

As for the sharing menu it's inelegant but no worse than that, and Apple's attempt certainly isn't any better.

[matttye]

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

I wouldn't call Gingerbread that early...either way it's basically the same. In this case there aren't many options but it's not uncommon to have five or more.

The point is, while to you and me that's straightforward enough, to lots of people that genuinely is confusing. They just wanted to play a track and instead of doing that they've been presented with a window and some kind of decision to make oh no!

It sounds silly but it's true.

As for the sharing menu it's inelegant but no worse than that, and Apple's attempt certainly isn't any better.

Ice Cream Sandwich completely changed the Android UI and made it a lot more uniform.

You should seriously look at ICS if you're going to comment on Android, as it is worlds ahead of Gingerbread. JB was more of an evolutionary upgrade than ICS.

[tomjleeds]

Originally Posted by matttye

Ice Cream Sandwich completely changed the Android UI and made it a lot more uniform.

You should seriously look at ICS if you're going to comment on Android, as it is worlds ahead of Gingerbread. JB was more of an evolutionary upgrade than ICS.

Am I incorrect in this particular instance?

[matttye]

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

Am I incorrect in this particular instance?

No not at all. Some people don't like dialog boxes/popup windows for some reason, even when the message is written in plain English.

I was just saying that ICS/JB have greatly improved Android, so if you're judging it based on Gingerbread you shouldn't.

I gave iOS another chance even though I got sick of the 1st gen iPhone because I knew it had improved substantially

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

I wouldn't call Gingerbread that early...either way it's basically the same. In this case there aren't many options but it's not uncommon to have five or more.

Gingerbread was early compared to ICS or JB.

Basically it isn't the same.

It is uncommon to have five or more options.

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

Am I incorrect in this particular instance?

Yes.

[tomjleeds]

Originally Posted by matttye

No not at all. Some people don't like dialog boxes/popup windows for some reason, even when the message is written in plain English.

I was just saying that ICS/JB have greatly improved Android, so if you're judging it based on Gingerbread you shouldn't.

I gave iOS another chance even though I got sick of the 1st gen iPhone because I knew it had improved substantially

I have spent a bit of time with JB but nothing like the amount of time I have with Froyo/Gingerbread. Thankfully in this case another poster went to the extent of providing screenshots of JB/ICS so I felt certain enough to post what I did

Above all I want my phone not to get in my way at inopportune moments, and iOS excels at that.

Originally Posted by daveathall

Gingerbread was early.

Basically it isn't the same.

It is uncommon to have five or more options.

Yes.

Gingerbread was in the middle somewhere.

It's a grid of icons instead of a simpler list, and there are "always" and "just once" buttons instead of a checkbox. So basically the same.

The number of options is completely separate to that and is entirely related to how many applications you have installed and what type of action you're doing. It is very common to have lots of options, you won't convince me otherwise, I used to get presented with them all the damn time.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

I haven't used the latest versions of Android but up to the Gingerbread days at least

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

I have spent a bit of time with JB but nothing like the amount of time I have with Froyo/Gingerbread.

[F123D]

Originally Posted by syd430

If you did a search on Sony or lenovo or Samsung forums, virtually every product has it's own set of QC issues that it is notorious for.

The main difference is the users of these products don't fire back and claim its user error and say "it just works".


----------


Like this..

Originally Posted by DJLC

iOS lives up to the classic "it just works" slogan.

Yet most users ignore issues like..

Apple Expands iCloud System Status Page After Repeated Outages

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/13/...eated-outages/


Clearly, it just works..

[matttye]

Originally Posted by F123D

The main difference is the users of these products don't fire back and claim its user error and say "it just works".


----------


Like this..




Yet most users ignore issues like..

Apple Expands iCloud System Status Page After Repeated Outages

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/13/...eated-outages/


Clearly, it just works..

Anyone can post a link of a service not working. It usually does work well.

[F123D]

Originally Posted by matttye

Anyone can post a link of a service not working. It usually does work well.

Well then everyone should say, "it usually does work well", instead of "it just works".

[matttye]

Originally Posted by F123D

Well then everyone should say, "it usually does work well", instead of "it just works".

It's just a phrase, I don't think it's meant to be taken literally.

If something works most of the time then obviously someone would say "it works."

[siiip5]

Originally Posted by matttye

What is? I'm not a mind reader, at least try to make some sense



Out of all those problems you mentioned only one affects me, and that's the awful maps. I have Google Maps so that's a non-issue now.

I meant other Apple devices sync with iCloud, not just any other device. PCs sync with them too, however. Also, I prefer the way that iOS utilises internal storage to store media rather than just the cloud. For example, take a picture on your iPhone and it can be automatically downloaded to your iPad. Download an app/book/song and it can be automatically downloaded to your other Apple devices.

Sorry, I should have said more apps worth having are available

I gave my S3 to my mrs and bought an iPhone 5, so I disagree with you. Android has more features, some of which do make the iPhone look ancient, but I still think the day to day experience of using the iPhone is better.

Fair enough.

But did you know that if I take a picture on my phone I can have it automatically download onto Dropbox, Google Drive, any PC, any Mac, and any other Android device I have in my family? Any app, magazine, book or video is auto synced to my Google account and therefore available instantly on all my other Android devices. On top of this, Android can also use internal storage, cloud storage, SD card storage, USB drive storage or even a full sized HDD for storage and be able to access and manipulate every file in any of the storage mediums. When it comes to using a mobile device more like a PC, iOS is woefully far behind Android.

I would also like to know which apps "worth having" do you have on iOS that isn't available on Android? Unless you are discussing some niche app, you'll be hard pressed to name a popular and common app that isn't on both platforms. Of course, Microsoft Office apps are available on Android and not iOS. There is the Plex app, which combined with a Roku device makes Apple TV, mirroring and iTunes look outdated. I have stopped using my Apple TV's because I got tired of the crappy, constant updates that were more likely to break the ATV rather than make it better.

At the end of the day, you have your opinion and I have mine. But as I have shown above, functionality over simplification means you can do more with an Android device.

[siiip5]

Originally Posted by matttye

Anyone can post a link of a service not working. It usually does work well.

If you are outside the US and try to use Apple maps you might even say it never works. Or if you get one that breaks the screen due to the iPhone 5 having to much flex, you might say that it works until it falls apart on you. Or if you have pixelization and lag issues, you might say it mostly works until you use the keyboard or need to scroll through a long list.

Sorry, the latest iPhone is the worst iPhone to date. Not only did they simply just stretch the previous 2 generations, they couldn't even get that right. Only thing innovative in any way was their new SoC. Nothing else in the software or hardware was new or innovative. Same with the iPad 4 and iPad mini. Apple simply rehash es the previous generation and then tries to add one new thing (that usually isn't available on the previous generation) to make you buy more iCrap. People are getting tired of this and the lack of QA on new products, which is why sales are down and Apple doesn't post sales figures on any of the new devices released this fall.

[Tinmania]

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

I wouldn't call Gingerbread that early...either way it's basically the same. In this case there aren't many options but it's not uncommon to have five or more.

The point is, while to you and me that's straightforward enough, to lots of people that genuinely is confusing. They just wanted to play a track and instead of it just doing that they've been presented with a window and some kind of decision to make oh no!

It sounds silly but it's true.

Nonsense. If someone is lacking in even basic common sense it doesn't matter what device they use: they will always be lost. I don't know anyone that out of it.

Setting up emoji and getting the battery percentage on the status bar in iOS are much more difficult tasks. Yet I have never not been able to walk someone through it via text or a call. Often they even show others after I have explained it to them. I could say if iOS was so danged simple why I am even asked to explain those things... but that is a discussion for another day.

In any event I doubt that those same people will go into shock if they go to play a song and are given a choice of apps--that they installed--with which to choose to play it. More like, "wow this is cool" (if they came from iOS). They might even go all wild and crazy and actually choose which one to use from then on--as bizarre as that sounds.




Michael

[onthecouchagain]

The only response anyone needs to "it just works" is "iOS keyboard and auto correct."

The term "it just works" has been detrimental to Apple. People -- especially the most dedicated iPhone fans -- just don't realize it.

[matttye]

Originally Posted by siiip5

Fair enough.

But did you know that if I take a picture on my phone I can have it automatically download onto Dropbox, Google Drive, any PC, any Mac, and any other Android device I have in my family? Any app, magazine, book or video is auto synced to my Google account and therefore available instantly on all my other Android devices. On top of this, Android can also use internal storage, cloud storage, SD card storage, USB drive storage or even a full sized HDD for storage and be able to access and manipulate every file in any of the storage mediums. When it comes to using a mobile device more like a PC, iOS is woefully far behind Android.

I would also like to know which apps "worth having" do you have on iOS that isn't available on Android? Unless you are discussing some niche app, you'll be hard pressed to name a popular and common app that isn't on both platforms. Of course, Microsoft Office apps are available on Android and not iOS. There is the Plex app, which combined with a Roku device makes Apple TV, mirroring and iTunes look outdated. I have stopped using my Apple TV's because I got tired of the crappy, constant updates that were more likely to break the ATV rather than make it better.

At the end of the day, you have your opinion and I have mine. But as I have shown above, functionality over simplification means you can do more with an Android device.

Yes I know about all of those things. The major difference is that you don't have to install anything extra to get that working on iOS, iCloud is built into the OS. No need to install Dropbox/Google drive/etc.

Apps are available on your Android devices but you still have to manually install them on each device (either by using the device itself or doing it from the web). iOS can automatically download apps to your other devices with no further input from the user.

It's mainly games that aren't available on both. Bejewelled blitz, FarmVille (which I no longer play, but did for a long time) are iOS exclusives. Some people like the infinity blade games too.

I know that you can get emulators on android and android will have it's own exclusives, but a lot of devs still write games for iOS first.

Originally Posted by siiip5

If you are outside the US and try to use Apple maps you might even say it never works. Or if you get one that breaks the screen due to the iPhone 5 having to much flex, you might say that it works until it falls apart on you. Or if you have pixelization and lag issues, you might say it mostly works until you use the keyboard or need to scroll through a long list.

Sorry, the latest iPhone is the worst iPhone to date. Not only did they simply just stretch the previous 2 generations, they couldn't even get that right. Only thing innovative in any way was their new SoC. Nothing else in the software or hardware was new or innovative. Same with the iPad 4 and iPad mini. Apple simply rehash es the previous generation and then tries to add one new thing (that usually isn't available on the previous generation) to make you buy more iCrap. People are getting tired of this and the lack of QA on new products, which is why sales are down and Apple doesn't post sales figures on any of the new devices released this fall.

My iPhone hasn't cracked yet and it never lags or pixelates, like I said before. Repeating yourself won't make it so

Apple Maps is abysmal and I don't trust it at all. That's why I wasted no time in getting Google Maps.

I can understand why people who have had every iPhone would get tired of these small step updates, but for someone who hasn't, I think the iPhone 5 is a great device. I bought it after using Android for three years. Had the HTC desire, galaxy s2 and s3 and had jelly bean, but I still felt like something was missing.

Google Music wasn't available in the UK at the time I got my iPhone, so having access to iTunes on the device was a big plus.

My iPhone automatically connects to my Bluetooth in my car every time. On android this was hit and miss and I ended up having to do it manually.

Siri allows me to set geolocation reminders.

iMessage lets me talk to people on their iPads as well as phones.

I don't have to use Tasker/NFC tags to configure settings to save battery life on iOS. I just leave Bluetooth/wifi on all the time because battery life is great with them on. No need to constantly change settings.

iOS is still smoother than android. The galaxy S3 is pretty lag free, but the Nexus 7 lags and stutters a lot. My iPad and iPhone never lag, the UI just glides.

I love Android and iOS, I just prefer iOS at this time. In another android version or two ill probably prefer android again. I see no point in brand loyalty, I just choose what's best for me at the time, and at the minute that's iOS. Android is good, but after owning a device for a while I don't care about customisation and I just want something to get the job done. iOS is a very capable OS wrapped in a simplistic package

----------

Originally Posted by onthecouchagain

The only response anyone needs to "it just works" is "iOS keyboard and auto correct."

The term "it just works" has been detrimental to Apple. People -- especially the most dedicated iPhone fans -- just don't realize it.

They're the richest company in the world. I don't think Apple has to worry about their marketing!

The iOS keyboard could be better but it's not too bad. I wish you could add things to the custom dictionary in one touch like on Android.

This is another example of Apple not wanting to confuse the user with too many options, but I would argue that it's easier to add words to a custom dictionary than having to repeatedly tell the keyboard not to correct.

[tomjleeds]

Originally Posted by Tinmania

Nonsense. If someone is lacking in even basic common sense it doesn't matter what device they use: they will always be lost. I don't know anyone that out of it.

Setting up emoji and getting the battery percentage on the status bar in iOS are much more difficult tasks. Yet I have never not been able to walk someone through it via text or a call. Often they even show others after I have explained it to them. I could say if iOS was so danged simple why I am even asked to explain those things... but that is a discussion for another day.

In any event I doubt that those same people will go into shock if they go to play a song and are given a choice of apps--that they installed--with which to choose to play it. More like, "wow this is cool" (if they came from iOS). They might even go all wild and crazy and actually choose which one to use from then on--as bizarre as that sounds.




Michael

Thanks for proving my point. You had to talk them through it.

Also thanks for calling my point nonsense, ignoring what I actually said, and declaring other people "lost" just because they don't find tech as straightforward as you.

Trying to have an adult conversation with you people is utterly, utterly pointless.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by matttye

Google Music wasn't available in the UK at the time I got my iPhone, so having access to iTunes on the device was a big plus.

I agree, it did take Google an awful long time to roll out this feature. I like them both.

Originally Posted by matttye

iPhone automatically connects to my Bluetooth in my car every time. On android this was hit and miss and I ended up having to do it manually.

I wonder if this is a Samsung thing, once you mentioned this some time ago, I noticed that every now and again my S3 didn't connect to my car bluetooth, whereas my Nexus 4 has never failed.

Originally Posted by matttye

I love Android and iOS, I just prefer iOS at this time. In another android version or two ill probably prefer android again. I see no point in brand loyalty, I just choose what's best for me at the time, and at the minute that's iOS. Android is good, but after owning a device for a while I don't care about customisation and I just want something to get the job done. iOS is a very capable OS wrapped in a simplistic package

I came the other way round and will probably at some stage move back, at the moment though, I prefer Android for my phone, I still have an iPad 1 and MBP and am getting a mini for Christmas, I prefer Apple for the larger devices. Wouldn't it be wonderful to just have the best of both systems in one, now that would be something. Mind, what could we argue about then?

Where I think that Apple is miles ahead of any of their competitors is customer service, having said that, I did notice that in the Middlesbrough PC World (Teeside Park) there was now a dedicated Samsung sub area (as there is a dedicated Apple sub area) it didn't seem to be manned though, but nevertheless, a step in the right direction.

[MonkeySee....]

Originally Posted by Tinmania

Because people don't want change for change sake. They want changes that help, not hinder. Case in point, the iOS App store. It is better on my original iPhone, running iOS 3.x than it is on my iPhone 4S running 6.x. That is crazy.



Michael

----------


That is a weak argument (at best). Anyone who has jailbroken and used browser changer can laugh at that argument.

And, for that matter, anyone who has ever used OS X.



Michael

There is a lot more people using iOS then there are Macs. Would you agree its easier to diagnose issues with a stock iPhone or a jailbroken one?

Originally Posted by siiip5

Funniest thing I have read on this forum today.

If you keep everything default, why bother with any real support. A computer prompt, or gasp, the manual will be able to tell you what is wrong. Again, this is why the iPhone doesn't belong in the smartphone category.
Sales of the iPhone aren't what they used to be, which is why you haven't seen Apple post sales figures. All we know if 5 million were sold at release and 2 million sold in China. Nothing else. Apple has always given sales figures out. If the S3 breaks 50 million this year, that will equate to Apples last two quarter sales of ALL iPhones. Now there is a telling figure.

And with no change to the iPhone 5S when it is released, watch those Apple stocks keep dropping. As I said before, iPhone is a has-been product at this point. Until they do something radically different they will keep bleeding customers. 2012 was the beginnig of the end for Apple.

Bleeding customers? Apple aren't losing more customers then they are gaining?

[DJLC]

Originally Posted by F123D

Yet most users ignore issues like..

Apple Expands iCloud System Status Page After Repeated Outages

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/12/13/...eated-outages/


Clearly, it just works..

FWIW, I have never noticed an iCloud system outage. I don't use iCloud email as I have my own domain w/ Google Apps email. Thus, none of my daily activities depend upon iCloud being 100% operational. Maybe some of my syncs would've been delayed, but it's never gotten in my way or stopped me from doing anything.

[Tinmania]

Originally Posted by tomjleeds

Thanks for proving my point. You had to talk them through it.

Also thanks for calling my point nonsense, ignoring what I actually said, and declaring other people "lost" just because they don't find tech as straightforward as you.

Trying to have an adult conversation with you people is utterly, utterly pointless.

You are not offering any real substance in your rebuttals. Of course it is not an adult conversation in the light of that issue.

"Thanks for proving my point" was anything but: I was explaining how there are in fact many aspects of iOS that are either hidden or unknown to the average user. In my example, had those people been asked if they wanted to have access to emoji it would likely be different--and they wouldn't need my help. That is what I was trying to say about Android, which you called confusing: it does ask you.

I contend that everyday people are not as confused or annoyed by a simple question, as you asserted. That is my point.

This is unrelated to you so may just skip it... But one more thing about emoji on iOS. Prior to Apple yanking all the emoji apps out of the app store all I had to do was send someone a link to an app that added it for them. That was simple. Yes the apps that did that and were not free were a waste of money, particularly under iOS 6.x, but they did allow an easier way of installing emoji. Now I have to get them to open up Settings, go to General->Keyboard->Keyboards->Add New Keyboard, scroll down through the myriad of Chinese and other keyboards to find emoji, hopefully nestled in between Dutch and Estonia. Not so simple.




Michael

[Ericcc]

Originally Posted by MonkeySee....

Bleeding customers? Apple aren't losing more customers then they are gaining?

Sales of iPhones will still grow globally, just like Blackberry did when everyone knew they were in the ditch. Apple is not in the same position as Blackberry was, but they are losing mindshare in key markets, and very likely losing customers in the high-end devices market as well.

The maps debacle, lawsuits, poor marketing recently, and Steve's death have really put a dent in Apple's reputation. But the main issue is that their iPhone formula simply isn't cutting it anymore. Consumers see viable alternatives with features they want, be it larger form factor or an OS that offers better workflow. If Apple does not do something to catch up to / leapfrog the competition, many of those consumers will not be returning.

[Tinmania]

Originally Posted by DJLC

FWIW, I have never noticed an iCloud system outage. I don't use iCloud email as I have my own domain w/ Google Apps email. Thus, none of my daily activities depend upon iCloud being 100% operational. Maybe some of my syncs would've been delayed, but it's never gotten in my way or stopped me from doing anything.

You just explained how none of your daily activities depend on iCloud yet are chiming in, in bold, that you never noticed an iCloud system outage? Uh, ok.

In other news I never got sick eating at McDonald's as some have reported. I don't eat at McDonald's but still....

Seriously though I used to use iMessage quite often, and daily. The last major outage, about 4 or 5 Sundays ago, was it for me and the last day I used iOS for my phone or used iMessage at all. It was particularly annoying since iMessage waits about 10 minutes when it can't send message to revert to SMS. And even that wasn't working right that day as often the iCloud server did in fact accept the message I sent so it never reverted to SMS (and didn't send the message via iMessage till hours later).

Siri I find is down on a regular basis. Worse, I would end up waiting like an idiot for 10 or so seconds till it came back with the heartfelt: "I am really sorry about this, but I can't help you right now. Please try again later."






Michael

----------

Originally Posted by MonkeySee....

There is a lot more people using iOS then there are Macs. Would you agree its easier to diagnose issues with a stock iPhone or a jailbroken one?

The issue is not about supporting jailbroken iPhones. I only mentioned that because by doing so you can make a browser of your choice the default browser. And guess what? Nothing bad happens because of that. The sky didn't fall.

The issue is the absurdity that iOS doesn't allow that natively. If Apple made Safari for Android Google would allow it to be the default browser. There is no defense in my opinion for Apple to not to do likewise. It has already been pointed out that OS X allows it. Apple is the one who proclaimed this is the "
post pc era." If that is so how come we can't do something that is trivial to do on a pc?




Michael

[Kashsystems]

Originally Posted by Ericcc

Sales of iPhones will still grow globally, just like Blackberry did when everyone knew they were in the ditch. Apple is not in the same position as Blackberry was, but they are losing mindshare in key markets, and very likely losing customers in the high-end devices market as well.

The maps debacle, lawsuits, poor marketing recently, and Steve's death have really put a dent in Apple's reputation. But the main issue is that their iPhone formula simply isn't cutting it anymore. Consumers see viable alternatives with features they want, be it larger form factor or an OS that offers better workflow. If Apple does not do something to catch up to / leapfrog the competition, many of those consumers will not be returning.

In Q3 the old outdated iphone 4s sold 16 million units vs the S3 18 million.

Analysts state that sales numbers were lower than usual due to people waiting for the iPhone 5.

I really do not see where people are ditching the iPhone.

People also do not realize the Market is less competitive than what it was 3 years ago.

HTC, Motorola, and LG are falling behind Samsung. Motorola got bought out by Google which helps them. HTC financial statements shows the company has been bleeding for some time. LG i do not know anything about.

iPhone 5 will probably win out the next 2 quarters till the cycle starts again and people with the 4s start waiting for the 5s.

[tomjleeds]

Originally Posted by Tinmania

You are not offering any real substance in your rebuttals. Of course it is not an adult conversation in the light of that issue.

"Thanks for proving my point" was anything but: I was explaining how there are in fact many aspects of iOS that are either hidden or unknown to the average user. In my example, had those people been asked if they wanted to have access to emoji it would likely be different--and they wouldn't need my help. That is what I was trying to say about Android, which you called confusing: it does ask you.

I contend that everyday people are not as confused or annoyed by a simple question, as you asserted. That is my point.

You've got to be kidding. I'm not offering any real substance? Says the guy who declared "nonsense" and dismissed anyone who doesn't understand tech as well as he does as having no common sense. Seriously, that's so short sighted I can barely believe you typed it.

As for proving my point, you did actually. We were discussing how the ability to do open with/choose default relies on one of two possibilities:

1) Intrusive popups when doing new actions, a la Android (which you dismissed).
2) Hiding it away in a menu.

You then outlined the problem with hiding it away in a menu - i.e. people can't find it/don't even know it's there, and someone has to help them out.

tl;dr: If you disagree with my point, fine, but respond to it with your own instead of just dismissing it as "nonsense"