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Old Dec 17, 2012, 05:22 PM   #926
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Originally Posted by webbuzz View Post
You threw out the ~31k gun death number of which 2/3 are suicides....
Yes. And I provided two science-based sources to show added danger guns pose when suicidal impulses strike.

I hope you spent a moment looking those over.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 05:25 PM   #927
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Yes. And I provided two science-based sources to show added danger guns pose when suicidal impulses strike.

I hope you spent a moment looking those over.
But, what can be done to assist those with mental health issues? Taking a gun away might prevent the "impulsive" attempts. What about other attempts? Future attempts?
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 05:25 PM   #928
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I'm unclear as to how you'd kill someone burning down a school in a jurisdiction with remotely acceptable fire codes.
Well, that depends largely on the building, but you could conceivably kill a number of people by setting multiple fast-burning and smoky fires, especially at the exits.

Older, multiple story buildings would be a better target the ranging, open campuses of most schools, but it's not impossible.

Also, keep in mind that a school is a lousy target, but something like a theater or nightclub would be be more likely to kill a greater number of people.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 05:42 PM   #929
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I have no problem with collectors owning assault rifles, just as long as they are permanently made to not fire anymore. Semi-automatic or fully automatic weapons are not necessary for self-defense or hunting.
I don't recall where in the 2nd Amendment there was anything about hunting or self defense. 2A was written to protect the people from a tyrannical government and they people at the time had the same weapons of the government (enemy) they were fighting, including cannons.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 05:50 PM   #930
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I don't recall where in the 2nd Amendment there was anything about hunting or self defense. 2A was written to protect the people from a tyrannical government and they people at the time had the same weapons of the government (enemy) they were fighting, including cannons.
The founding fathers were not around in a time where this stuff was invented. While the 2A was put in to prevent a tyrannical government, times have changed and the 2A should adapt to reflect that.

So could I go and buy a fully functional battleship, fighter jets, bombers, aircraft carriers, etc allowed by the 2nd amendment because the potentially tyrannical government has those weapons because we're going to stick to what the founding fathers wrote the 2nd amendment for in their time with none of these weapons?
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 06:23 PM   #931
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:29 PM   #932
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It illustrates how much confusion there is with regard to guns and gun laws. Part of this is due to differences between state and city laws, as well as confusion because of the business of guns, which tends to allow different companies to make what appears to be the same gun, but there can be significant esoteric differences in each.


Bomb making, especially ones powerful enough to destroy a school require time and resources, something many mass-shooters don't have.
As for burning the building down, that's a fair point.
There needs to be standardization at a federal level. While many people will oppose that because it could mean tighter or looser laws, I agree the confusion from variation is a problem. Variation in transportation laws have also resulted in many good people facing felony charges. We need clear laws. We need even clearer laws to both the sale of new guns at the FFL level (which is currently pretty well developed) and sale of used guns at the individual level.

And I mean, as far as what this kid would have done if he did not steal his mother's firearms, I don't really know. And I think that is the scary part. The thought that someone would intentionally kill children is just horrifying and the mechanisms at play may not have been examined enough in psychology. I mean, I cannot even begin to imagine how an individual could point a gun at a child and pull the trigger.

At some point, the lack of standardized medical care in the US also needs to be questioned as to if it is an aggravating factor of gun violence (I would argue it is). It's a well-known fact that most mental health conditions can be easily treated and managed so the individual can live a normal life. If you don't have insurance and don't get treatment, what happens then? Is better comprehensive mental health services in some European nations also an explanation of why gun violence is lower?




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While it never hurts to increase one's understanding of an issue, I believe you overlook an obvious point. No other western industrial society has near the number of guns the United States has or near the amount of gun violence.

You don't have to be an expert on "gun culture" to see that there is a problem with firearms in the United States. The U.S., as a society, has chosen to saturate itself with firearms, and we experience far more shootings than any of these other western nations.

That seems pretty straight forward to me.

What "expertise" do I need to acquire to change my belief that the prevalence of guns contributes significantly to the number of shootings?

Please educate me.
Yes. You are absolutely right. There are far more guns in the US than any other country. You said this yourself. This complicates the situation as the European model can never be applied to the US for this very reason.

You do need to be an expert on gun culture if you want to do something about these problemsÖreally? Iíd argue you need a comprehensive understanding in the sense that you would then be better prepared to draw a compromise that could have support from both sides and actually save lives. It also is important to understand at what point law or education is failing, as you otherwise really canít say how to make the situation better.

I think another understanding needs to be made of these shooters. Why are they choosing to attack schools? Is it because they know they will not face armed resistance? In the most recent event, the shooter killed himself upon learning that armed responders were arriving. This is a question that hasnít really been explored. If so, what is the potential value of having armed personnel at schools? Would the knowledge of an armed responder on the school premise potentially deter a would-be shooter? A firearm is unique in that it is a general and specific deterrent not just by function, but also by simple appearance without ever being used.





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I think CalWizrd talks a lot of sense.

No but the result would have likely been similar to the incident in China where no-one died.

I also suspect that is his mother had been a bit more sensible about not having a gun in the house with a troubled teenager then it wouldn't have happened.

Except for banning assault weapons. And frankly I'm sure for all guns that has changed in the last week.
I agree that if his mother made any sort of responsible effort in storing the firearms and ammo, this may not have happened, or at least not to the severity that it did. I donít know if it is enough to overwrite someoneís desire to do evil to this degree, but denial of access could surely may have prevented this event from occurring how it did. Anyone buying a firearm must consider the mental health of anyone who may have access to it and what the potential implications of this areÖwhich leads back to the education, which is seriously lacking.

Gun attitudes in the US have been pretty stable, but I agree that assault rifles are probably viewed differently by many. To me, an assault rifle is just another type of sporting gun. While this last week likely will see a differ perspective on assault rifles, I doubt it will have as many long term affects as people may believe. Hopefully it will result in existing rules being followed. I consider myself pretty moderate on most issues, including this. Obviously, we have a major issue in the US with gun deaths, and it would be ignorant to ignore it. But when many people propose to ban guns or further restrict access to law abiding citizens, I have to question not only the constitutionality of it, but also if it would even be effective (given the US has so many guns currently in circulation, it is a completely different scenario than elsewhere). So I guess what I am getting at is Iíd like to see mandated education and strict enforcement of existing rules before the addition of more laws, and see what happens from there.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 08:16 PM   #933
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I think another understanding needs to be made of these shooters. Why are they choosing to attack schools?
The armchair psychologist in me leads me to believe that he holds some deep-seated resentment due to his experience in school ... maybe even that school in particular.

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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
Is it because they know they will not face armed resistance?
If shooters are simply looking for places they won't find armed resistance, then that shouldn't be too hard for them. Put armed guards in the schools and they'll simply choose a different target.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 08:59 PM   #934
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The armchair psychologist in me leads me to believe that he holds some deep-seated resentment due to his experience in school ... maybe even that school in particular.

If shooters are simply looking for places they won't find armed resistance, then that shouldn't be too hard for them. Put armed guards in the schools and they'll simply choose a different target.
It's completely possible, but this case would be significantly deferred anger given it seems impossible for him to have had direct experiences with those whom he shot. Many other shootings have been students shooting their peers, so this is somewhat of a unique case. I haven't read it yet but the condition I can think of that would work in this fashion is borderline personality disorder. And if that is the case, his mother had to have known he was not fit to handle a firearm and she failed to take responsible precautionary measures.

I'm not sure how armed personel at schools would work, or if it is even a good idea. I mean, the other advantage is that also means having someone who can handle in-school conflicts (such as fights) or nightly escorts to a car if the area is a little rough, and what not. I think if you get well-trained personel that they are better prepared for the numerous scenarios a school could face and understand exactly what is and is not an acceptable response to such situation. So I'm not sure how that would work but I'm not against exploring it further.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 09:28 PM   #935
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Lone survivor in Connecticut classroom: 'Mommy, I'm OK, but all of my friends are dead'



With all the bad reports out there, I'm only believing this one because over the last few days I've kept hearing about children running out of the school covered in blood. This is the only story that could explain it. Truly incredible, if real.

I also wanted to offer thanks to the first responders of the Newton tragedy. The new protocols of response for an "active shooter" are quite extraordinary. They call for the first responders to immediately seek out and engage the threat, bypassing even the most injured along the way. I can't imagine walking the halls of that school or any other incident seeking harms way. These men and women are truly special in every community. I whole heartedly appreciate their efforts.

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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:07 PM   #936
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Maybe I expect too much out of everyone, I am slowly losing faith in humanity when somebody will call in a bomb threat during a church mass in Newtown. People don't care and that is no different in here. I will admit this tragedy changed my view of the world. This is not the first time a mass shooting has happened, but it was in my back yard. where 6 and 7 year olds are the victims a week before Christmas. So forgive me if I expect some compassion from the group here. When the conversation turns heartless and people are treated as statistics not humans who were gunned down like animals
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:21 PM   #937
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The news couldn't possibly have been worse on this CT thing. The mother apparently had no connection to the school as a teacher. Or an aide. What happened to the second guy that they arrested in fatigues the bushes? what about the missing girlfriend and the missing friend and the supposed crime scene in NJ? At one point shooter was claimed to be the father of one of tu kids. The bushmaster was left in the car, until it wasn't. That was actually a shotgun. Everyone angling for scoop and so much of it so wrong. Never a retraction...no accountability.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:28 PM   #938
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As for "fixing" the problem, good luck. Makes for hot discussion, but I don't know that there's much to be fixed. A gun is a tool. No different from a hammer, a screw driver, or a drill. There will always be sick demented *******s who deliberately use the tool for evil purposes. Short of Minority Report, it isn't possible to 100% eliminate or prevent that.
except a hammer cannot be use to kill 26 people in a few minutes
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:31 PM   #939
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As for "fixing" the problem, good luck. Makes for hot discussion, but I don't know that there's much to be fixed. A gun is a tool. No different from a hammer, a screw driver, or a drill. There will always be sick demented *******s who deliberately use the tool for evil purposes. Short of Minority Report, it isn't possible to 100% eliminate or prevent that.

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So it's no big deal then if Iran and North Korea acquire nuclear weapons?
That's a bunk argument. Preventing a nation from developing a single large weapon at a single manufacturing site is a feasible goal. Eliminating the 300 million guns that are already in the US is not. To make an eco-analogy, It's like the difference between implementing pollution controls at the one powerplant in your town, vs. individually on each of the 100,000 cars in the town.

Also, we see how well an outright ban works with the war on drugs. Marijuana, cocaine, meth, etc. All illegal, completely banned, (well, excepting the 2 new marijuana states) yet all are readily available in any city or town across the country. If there is a demand, there will be a supply, legal, or otherwise.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:36 PM   #940
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except a hammer cannot be use to kill 26 people in a few minutes
Huh? Since when?

Not a hammer, but a knife, just last week some twisted ******* stabbed 22 school children on a stabbing rampage in China. There's a problem in China now with stabbing rampages like this where dozens are injured or killed by a mad stabber.

Virtually any tool can be a weapon. If a twisted demented person wants to kill a bunch of folks - he's going to do it. How many guns were used to kill more than 3,000 people on September 11th 2001? All it took was a few box-cutters and airplanes. Should we pass laws banning box cutters? And airplanes? Hint: The tool isn't the problem.

Lets not forget the Bath School massacre where 45 killed and 58 injured at a school in Michigan - and not a single gun was used.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:39 PM   #941
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Lone survivor in Connecticut classroom: 'Mommy, I'm OK, but all of my friends are dead'



With all the bad reports out there, I'm only believing this one because over the last few days I've kept hearing about children running out of the school covered in blood. This is the only story that could explain it. Truly incredible, if real.

I also wanted to offer thanks to the first responders of the Newton tragedy. The new protocols of response for an "active shooter" are quite extraordinary. They call for the first responders to immediately seek out and engage the threat, bypassing even the most injured along the way. I can't imagine walking the halls of that school or any other incident seeking harms way. These men and women are truly special in every community. I whole heartedly appreciate their efforts.
This whole thing is beyond imagination horribly. Also, see: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/ny...t-in-song.html

One class hiding in a closet were singing quietly christmas songs so they were distracted while their friends next room were massacred. I still cannot grasp the whole thing.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:17 PM   #942
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To be honest, I honestly don't think the two can be separated. They're victims because of guns. Period.

These kids had their entire lives ahead of them, TBH, it's hard to spend a lot of time celebrating these kid's lives when they were so short. The adults are another story and from every account I've read, the principal was one in a million and I'm sure she will be sorely missed.

We need to stop pretending that the NRA and the unhealthy American obsession with guns has nothing to do with this.

I see too many posters here who want to destroy the unions and make everyone into underpaid, in-represented drones but refuse to acknowledge that the NRA has become a danger to this country's well being. Their leaders and members have the blood of theses five year olds on their hands.
While we’re at it, let’s ban alcohol and tobacco. I'm sure people on this forum will argue that the 2nd Amendment needs to go away because guns are “bad” and NRA members are Looney. But at the same time they smoke, drink or do both that causes more deaths. DUI accidents, Alcohol poisoning, Lung cancer, Second hand smoke and so on. Shoot, why not get rid of cell phones due to increased car accidence caused by texting and driving. I swear, some on this forum are so hypocritical because they don’t own a firearm and by banning the sales of guns won’t affect them. It’s not the responsible ones that are doing the shootings/Killings; it’s the idiots that are sick in the head that get their hands on them illegally. If Americas government were to confiscate ALL registered weapons, that will leave gangbangers and drug cartels armed and strapped. Is that what all you people that are against the 2nd Amendment want to happen? This world is not always full of sunshine, rainbows and butterflies. I would hope some here would know that already.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:37 PM   #943
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except a hammer cannot be use to kill 26 people in a few minutes
A car could, as could a mixture of chlorine and ammonia...
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:38 PM   #944
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Make it impossible to buy guns as you do now in the USA, make it so awkward so that they are not a 'right" not a "normal" thing to own, not an everyday expected item to see on the street regardless of the authority you happen to come across. Why the **** anyone needs to own a semi automatic military type gun in every day normal life is beyond me.
Yep, it will be just as effective as banning drugs or alcohol.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 11:41 PM   #945
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Yep, it will be just as effective as banning drugs or alcohol.
People who want to ban guns outright fail every time to explain how criminals will stop using illegal firearms to commit crimes. I sometimes wonder if they are expecting a firearm ban to convince criminals to quit the deviance and get a day job
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 12:02 AM   #946
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Why the **** anyone needs to own a semi automatic military type gun in every day normal life is beyond me.

Because if the state says itís ok, then let them do so. Why is it any of your business? Your neighbor, friend, family member could own a semi automatic M4 and you want to question them of why? If itís legal then Let them be. Now, if it was some nut case that has the firearm illegally and keeps it in the open for anyone to have access to it, then they are in the wrong and should be dealt with by the law.
If youíre going by the 2nd 2012 presidential debate when President Obama made the statement of keeping Military style weapons off the streets, heís talking about keeping that particular style of weapon out of gangbangers reach. As much as I 100% agree with him, I say good luck with that.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 01:21 AM   #947
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A car could, as could a mixture of chlorine and ammonia...
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Originally Posted by dime21 View Post
Huh? Since when?

Not a hammer, but a knife, just last week some twisted ******* stabbed 22 school children on a stabbing rampage in China. There's a problem in China now with stabbing rampages like this where dozens are injured or killed by a mad stabber.

Virtually any tool can be a weapon. If a twisted demented person wants to kill a bunch of folks - he's going to do it. How many guns were used to kill more than 3,000 people on September 11th 2001? All it took was a few box-cutters and airplanes. Should we pass laws banning box cutters? And airplanes? Hint: The tool isn't the problem.

Lets not forget the Bath School massacre where 45 killed and 58 injured at a school in Michigan - and not a single gun was used.


Not as easy, its a fake argument . Knives, box cutters cars all serve a purpose, that this purpuse can be abused is a sad reality.

Assualt styled weapons in the hands of civilians like used here dont have a purpose beyond killing things as they were designed to do.

You are not going to scare away a thief more with a AR15 then with a Smith & Wesson SHIELD, hell a handgun is a lot easier to use in su!ch a case then a semi automatic assult rifle.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 01:41 AM   #948
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Semi automatic is considered a military type weapon now? I am a little confused on how the proposed sandy act is going to allow you a pistol, but restrict semi automatic weaponry at the same time? We talking about muskets here?

As typical, liberals are trying to make laws about things they barely understand. It looks or sounds scary, ban it.

Theres nothing particularly special about an ar15 compared to other rifles. It fires a projectile that has the potential to kill, and it usually is a lower caliber at that.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 02:02 AM   #949
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Because if the state says itís ok, then let them do so. Why is it any of your business? Your neighbor, friend, family member could own a semi automatic M4 and you want to question them of why? If itís legal then Let them be. Now, if it was some nut case that has the firearm illegally and keeps it in the open for anyone to have access to it, then they are in the wrong and should be dealt with by the law.
If youíre going by the 2nd 2012 presidential debate when President Obama made the statement of keeping Military style weapons off the streets, heís talking about keeping that particular style of weapon out of gangbangers reach. As much as I 100% agree with him, I say good luck with that.
Then stinger missiles to hunt pigeons and anti tank for the occasional wondering rhino should be ok as well? Of course as long as the state allows it?

How about poluting his property?

Driving 250mph ?

All actions that dont give you any harm, yet that polution spreads to the grondwater and spreads out, driving that fast makes you prone to accidents mowing away anyone close, guns get stolen or lost.


The USA is by far the most armed country, yet the chances of dying violently are far greater then in most if not all simular western styled countries. That alone should tell you something.

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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Semi automatic is considered a military type weapon now? I am a little confused on how the proposed sandy act is going to allow you a pistol, but restrict semi automatic weaponry at the same time? We talking about muskets here?

As typical, liberals are trying to make laws about things they barely understand. It looks or sounds scary, ban it.

Theres nothing particularly special about an ar15 compared to other rifles. It fires a projectile that has the potential to kill, and it usually is a lower caliber at that.
ANd how big is a typical magazine of such an assault rifle compared to a normal pistol or handgun? Let alone what is max capable.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 02:45 AM   #950
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People who want to ban guns outright fail every time to explain how criminals will stop using illegal firearms to commit crimes. I sometimes wonder if they are expecting a firearm ban to convince criminals to quit the deviance and get a day job
If you make sure that guns are stored properly and close the gun show loophole then you will make it significantly harder for criminals to get guns.

----------

PS

Can we stop the hyperbole? The vast majority of the people here aren't asking for an outright ban - can we stop pretending that they are as that doesn't make for an interesting or worthwhile discussion.
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