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Old Dec 4, 2012, 04:28 PM   #551
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Battery life pretty decent for reading stuff mobile. I'm really interested in the pen features. An on-screen digitizer tablet is pretty cool!
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 07:05 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
So you played around in a store format that Apple stole from BOSE and Sony And cell phone stores? And Multiple retailers have been using since before Apple ever opened their own stores?

Right.

Spell check? The Surface RT virtual keyboard does spellcheck just fine.

With the type or touch cover? Learn to spell.

Mail and messenger take 20+ seconds to open? Thats ********. Because I'm typing this one a Surface RT right now, and the Apps all open pretty much instantly, with a couple seconds for the bigger ones.

And, an Microsoft retail employee would never say that, as it would offend a customer.

I think you made the entire thing up.
Frankly, I could care less what you think. I used it, I did not like it, I found it be slow, I stated my findings. Did I say you should not go buy it? Nope. You're free to use whatever device you like to use… All I know is that I will not be buying it as it did not suit me.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 07:12 PM   #553
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Frankly, I could care less what you think. I used it, I did not like it, I found it be slow, I stated my findings. Did I say you should not go buy it? Nope. You're free to use whatever device you like to use… All I know is that I will not be buying it as it did not suit me.
Frankly I don't care what you think, because your a liar. I don't think office took 20 seconds to load, because no one has that problem, and I don't think a Microsoft retail employer would say " you have an iphone anyway " because he would be fired on the spot.

If the Surface RT is slow, then the iPad 3 must be even slower right? Yeah, total logic.
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Old Dec 4, 2012, 10:10 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by Liquorpuki View Post
Cheap labor doesn't drive down prices. ...... You get what you paid for and this is why the mobile ecosystem can create a million flashlight apps but not one word processor with a built in equation editor. Mobile is now a budget market, with both budget pricing and budget quality.

Notice how Apple's been taking steps to commoditize software on OS X as well. Dropping the pricepoint of first party software (Aperture, Logic, etc), creating the MAC app store, marginalizing pro users - that's all meant to commoditize desktop software and make it less valuable. They're unable to go all the way because of logistical issues (if you don't like the App Store, you can still get OS X software from brick and mortars, STEAM, Amazon, etc) but they went all the way on iOS and had no problem letting it become a race to the bottom. I don't think people want to see desktop software become a budget market, but that seems to be Apple's vision for the future.

The Fire, the Nexus, the RT, they all copied Apple's app store model and are chained to the same distribution model that produces cheap crappy software. The Pro isn't and that's why it has value.

Far as mobile processing getting more powerful, it doesn't matter. Most apps can't afford to milk it anyway because of the lower price points.



It's a converged device. Back in the days, you could have bought a cheap phone and used the leftover money to get a PDA, but smartphones took off anyway.



I'm buying one but I have no clue what's gonna happen either. They have something good here but a lot of whether or not it makes an impact depends on marketing.

Cheap labor mean a lot because the company can be profitable with lower software price while other higher cost competitor will have to fold. If the software price drop 50% but your labor cost drop 75%, and your unit volume go up 100%, all of a sudden you are making a lot more money than before. The quality of software argument is bogus. I was a software developers for 20+ years and see first hand the quality of Eastern Europe and China programmers. They are as good as anyone in US in term of grinding out software. Yes, we grind out software. For everyone 100 programmers, you only need 5-10 really innovative guys/gals that design the software and the rest of the team will work day and night to carry out the coding and testing necessary for a quality software. So you pay 10% of the programming population 100% of US programmer cost and 90% of the programmer at 1/3 to 1/4 of US cost and all of a sudden the business model change drastically. As more and more Asian and East European company get involve with mobile software development, they can afford to develop much more complicated software while US based company cannot because our programmer cost is too high. The higher quality and more useful software will be priced much higher than the $5 to $10 that a typical app cost today. But it will still be meaningfully less than PC version of them and that is the key.

Google, Apple, and tons of mobile OS in China (Aliyun from Alababa, ZTE use Mozilla OS) are all gunning for cheap software. And software developers are biting the bait and willing to work for peanut in the hope of getting a big hit that will sell tens of millions copies like Angry birds. Corporate America will figure it out too that the mobile platform is cheaper. ARM processor squeeze all the margin out of Intel processors.

The PC and Unix to mobile transition is being driven by economic as much as the transition from mainframe to PC/UNIX. The only thing that I need my PC now is the bigger screen (for my eye ) and Quicken. An Ipad is good enough for me to survive on the road and my almost brand new laptop is being used a second desktop at home. And the need for desktop and laptop window PC will get smaller and smaller until a core group of applications that nothing else will replace PC (same as mainframe today).

Agreed that Surface is intended to be a convergent device. But the trouble is that user can user their existing laptop and their existing tablet and there is no real need to buy a window tablet unless the convenience out weight the cost. So the competition is not from other tablet but from user existing devices.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 12:38 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
Cheap labor mean a lot because the company can be profitable with lower software price while other higher cost competitor will have to fold. If the software price drop 50% but your labor cost drop 75%, and your unit volume go up 100%, all of a sudden you are making a lot more money than before. The quality of software argument is bogus. I was a software developers for 20+ years and see first hand the quality of Eastern Europe and China programmers. They are as good as anyone in US in term of grinding out software. Yes, we grind out software. For everyone 100 programmers, you only need 5-10 really innovative guys/gals that design the software and the rest of the team will work day and night to carry out the coding and testing necessary for a quality software. So you pay 10% of the programming population 100% of US programmer cost and 90% of the programmer at 1/3 to 1/4 of US cost and all of a sudden the business model change drastically. As more and more Asian and East European company get involve with mobile software development, they can afford to develop much more complicated software while US based company cannot because our programmer cost is too high. The higher quality and more useful software will be priced much higher than the $5 to $10 that a typical app cost today. But it will still be meaningfully less than PC version of them and that is the key.
You're saying the reason mobile software is so cheap is because all these mobile developers have outsourced their programming to Asia and Europe. I'm saying the reason it's cheap is because Apple is intentionally commoditizing software on iOS. This is already known. Some blog posts talking about it here, here, and here. This is ecosystem driven, not labor driven. If Apple were to offer another way to get software on your phone besides the app store, commoditization would disappear and prices would go up, regardless of who did the programming. But they won't because cheap, disposable software helps sell their hardware, which is all they care about.

Quote:
Google, Apple, and tons of mobile OS in China (Aliyun from Alababa, ZTE use Mozilla OS) are all gunning for cheap software. And software developers are biting the bait and willing to work for peanut in the hope of getting a big hit that will sell tens of millions copies like Angry birds. Corporate America will figure it out too that the mobile platform is cheaper. ARM processor squeeze all the margin out of Intel processors.
All those foreign developers will learn what many American developers have already learned. That in a commoditized market, it's close to impossible to create a brand to elevate your product above competing products and as prices drop, it becomes a crapshoot to make money because you're now competing with a ton of other developers, in a crowded market, all of which offer the same low-cost solution. Look at how many to-do apps there are on iOS right now. Or how many skinner box games. It doesn't matter whether these apps were programmed in China in Cupertino, they're all a dime a dozen.

Quote:
The PC and Unix to mobile transition is being driven by economic as much as the transition from mainframe to PC/UNIX. The only thing that I need my PC now is the bigger screen (for my eye ) and Quicken. An Ipad is good enough for me to survive on the road and my almost brand new laptop is being used a second desktop at home. And the need for desktop and laptop window PC will get smaller and smaller until a core group of applications that nothing else will replace PC (same as mainframe today).
I need my PC to edit Office documents without dealing with integration problems or jumping through hoops to import/export files. I need it to program on and I'm really curious how you do programming on your iPad. As an engineer I use Matlab. The only Matlab app available is some companion app that's useless to me. I use it for AAA gaming, something the iPad with its commoditized mess of ripofs and P2P skinner boxes cannot do. I use it as a music recording DAW, which the iPad can't do because every $10 music app on the iPad is basically a toy. I use it for CAD work, and there's still no app on the iPad that can even open a DGN file. I use it for programming devices using proprietary vendor software that only runs on Windows.

Race to the bottom pricing on mobile has not only prevented these software solutions from appearing in the app store, but it's pretty much ensured they'll never appear.

Quote:
Agreed that Surface is intended to be a convergent device. But the trouble is that user can user their existing laptop and their existing tablet and there is no real need to buy a window tablet unless the convenience out weight the cost. So the competition is not from other tablet but from user existing devices.
I believe the convenience will outweight the cost. And for those who are in the market for both a tablet and a laptop, the converged solution is already cheaper.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 01:21 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by kalsta View Post
What?! When did I blast Apple for not doing like?? Why not take a moment to go back and comprehend what I actually said before misquoting me for a second time now.

Here, I'll make it easy for you by quoting my full comment again:



I said they 'missed out on … falling on their arse'. To put it a different way, they did not fall on their arse.

No one likes being misquoted, so slow down next time and read what the person has said before you try and poke holes in their argument.
Oh, IC what u meant now.

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Old Dec 5, 2012, 07:06 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by Liquorpuki View Post
You're saying the reason mobile software is so cheap is because all these mobile developers have outsourced their programming to Asia and Europe. I'm saying the reason it's cheap is because Apple is intentionally commoditizing software on iOS. This is already known. Some blog posts talking about it here, here, and here. This is ecosystem driven, not labor driven. If Apple were to offer another way to get software on your phone besides the app store, commoditization would disappear and prices would go up, regardless of who did the programming. But they won't because cheap, disposable software helps sell their hardware, which is all they care about.



All those foreign developers will learn what many American developers have already learned. That in a commoditized market, it's close to impossible to create a brand to elevate your product above competing products and as prices drop, it becomes a crapshoot to make money because you're now competing with a ton of other developers, in a crowded market, all of which offer the same low-cost solution. Look at how many to-do apps there are on iOS right now. Or how many skinner box games. It doesn't matter whether these apps were programmed in China in Cupertino, they're all a dime a dozen.



I need my PC to edit Office documents without dealing with integration problems or jumping through hoops to import/export files. I need it to program on and I'm really curious how you do programming on your iPad. As an engineer I use Matlab. The only Matlab app available is some companion app that's useless to me. I use it for AAA gaming, something the iPad with its commoditized mess of ripofs and P2P skinner boxes cannot do. I use it as a music recording DAW, which the iPad can't do because every $10 music app on the iPad is basically a toy. I use it for CAD work, and there's still no app on the iPad that can even open a DGN file. I use it for programming devices using proprietary vendor software that only runs on Windows.

Race to the bottom pricing on mobile has not only prevented these software solutions from appearing in the app store, but it's pretty much ensured they'll never appear.



I believe the convenience will outweight the cost. And for those who are in the market for both a tablet and a laptop, the converged solution is already cheaper.
I think what I am advocating is that the cheap labor allow the cheap software to exist. It does not matter who start this trend. The fact that the trend stick mean enough software companies are willing to accept the current paradigm. It is no difference that any other manufacturing companies, when the margin get squeezed, they will move the manufacturing to lower cost area.

The current pricing of mobile software is very hard for US and Western European software companies to make money. But it does not mean eastern European or Asia software companies cannot make money in this pricing environment. Would it surprise you that a programmer with master degree in China make about $20k USD a year all in?

In a few months, we will see the sales number for Window 8 pro and it will be interesting to see whether the convergent argument stick with corporations around the world.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 07:46 PM   #558
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I simply cannot wait until the price plummets. I NEED one for work.

I do house inspections and have to fill out paperwork when I do the inspection and then switch to windows with Bootcamp when I get home and then use some archaic "IE only" web-based software to enter/submit all the data (I enter the data from the pen and paper work orders I use in the field, essentially doing the same thing twice). Now I will be able to cut out those 3 middlemen and enter data right in the field.
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 07:53 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by xofruitcake View Post
The current pricing of mobile software is very hard for US and Western European software companies to make money. But it does not mean eastern European or Asia software companies cannot make money in this pricing environment. Would it surprise you that a programmer with master degree in China make about $20k USD a year all in?
It's hard for everyone to make money, western or not. This isn't $100 software were I can outsource the programming to China, transfer the savings to a $40 pricecut and gain a competitive edge through pricing. This is software that's already cheap but its cheapness gives no edge because everything around it is cheap also. Cheapness is a staple of the mobile ecosystem, it makes you fit in, it's not something you can leverage. Cheapness is basically a starting point because your software not being cheap on mobile will pretty much guarantee nobody will download it. On some of these applications, even $1 is not cheap enough and you now have to go Freemium in order for people to download your app. Outsourcing labor to cut costs does nothing when you're already giving your stuff away for free.

The only real way to make money on mobile software is by creating a brand. Commoditization makes that extremely difficult because if your app isn't in the top 80 list when it's released, you're done. The mobile market is just too damn cheap and too damn crowded.

Here's a slideshow from 2010 showing the effect of commoditization on iOS apps. Some real good points here.

Quote:
In a few months, we will see the sales number for Window 8 pro and it will be interesting to see whether the convergent argument stick with corporations around the world.
Yeah we'll see what happens
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Old Dec 5, 2012, 08:24 PM   #560
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Oh, IC what u meant now.

2 manee wordz phail gramer comprhenzion
No worries mate. In hindsight, I probably should have used some commas.
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Old Dec 6, 2012, 10:29 AM   #561
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I simply cannot wait until the price plummets. I NEED one for work.

I do house inspections and have to fill out paperwork when I do the inspection and then switch to windows with Bootcamp when I get home and then use some archaic "IE only" web-based software to enter/submit all the data (I enter the data from the pen and paper work orders I use in the field, essentially doing the same thing twice). Now I will be able to cut out those 3 middlemen and enter data right in the field.
I think you have a lot of company. Just like every other successful windows release, in two years its going to seem like it's everywhere, and the devices running it will have a vast range of quality and prices, with many full offerings competing directly on price with the RT variants.

So that said, I don't know why there is a RT tablet. Feels like another Windows ME fiasco. In light of the hardware competition that is inevitable on the windows 8 platform, everyone using RT will feel like they bought an underpowered brick.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:03 PM   #562
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This is a very solid proposition by microsoft, excellently priced and spec-ed. And some welcome competition to apple

People might want to read the review for the screen of the Surface rt, Cleartype, better contrast, and bonded glass to the display (which makes for the tablet with the lowest reflectance, that's right ms currently has a tablet that you actually see the screen itself not yourself using it under bright light conditions, and apple doesn't) make it superior to the ipad in these areas. Though it was still suffering from the lower resolution. With the resolution on this baby a step up, it's a very welcome tablet indeed. From Ray Soneira's website, one of the foremost authorities worldwide on display specifications.

http://www.displaymate.com/Surface_RT_ShootOut_1.htm

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$1,000 for a keyboardless laptop? 100 dollar keyboard addons? I think I'll pass.
You are joking right? You are paying $800 for a keyboardless tablet that can't do basic office apps and has nowhere near the power of the intel cpu.

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Old Dec 10, 2012, 02:20 PM   #563
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I just wonder: What is the point of the Surface?

The base one doesn't seem terribly competitive with an iPad; and the so-called "Pro" version just seems . . . like a gimmick. Do either one of them do anything you can't already do with a different tablet or laptop?

The Surface seems to be a Zune redux.
-2013 Tablet UI with live updating tiles and not a anachronistic phone os
-Bonded Glass with 2-3 time LOWER reflectance than the ipad
-Cleartype Font
-Typing cover
-Full Office apps
-NON proprietary USB plug to:
a.Drag and drop stuff.
b. Plug in periferals, keyboards, hard drive, mice etc.
-SD Card Slot so you can be in control of storage.

You might want to tell us which apple tablet/laptop can do all that.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:24 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
-2013 Tablet UI with live updating tiles and not a anachronistic phone os
-Bonded Glass with 2-3 time LOWER reflectance than the ipad
-Cleartype Font
-Typing cover
-Full Office apps
-NON proprietary USB plug to:
a.Drag and drop stuff.
b. Plug in periferals, keyboards, hard drive, mice etc.
-SD Card Slot so you can be in control of storage.

You might want to tell us which apple tablet/laptop can do all that.
Um, any Win8 laptop? Like the dude said? Many of which are cheaper than the Surface. And he didn't specify anything about Apple, you did.

Did anybody else notice the product placement in Elementary last episode? Sherlock whips out a Surface instead of his customary laptop. Took three times as long for him to begin using it because he very deliberately *clicked* the keyboard into place, then very deliberately *clicked* the kickstand out, and then very deliberately placed it carefully on his lap. He has often grabbed a laptop in the show and just started using it. Oh well, I guess commercials pay for TV, right?

seriously, MS, why are you making the click the main advertised feature of this product?
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:43 PM   #565
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Um, any Win8 laptop? Like the dude said? Many of which are cheaper than the Surface. And he didn't specify anything about Apple, you did.
All those Win8 hybrids and convertibles either just came out or aren't out yet and have no marketing push behind them. The Surface is pretty much the only Win8 hybrid with significant marketing behind it. Most people wouldn't know what a Vaio Duo 11 is if they never stepped foot in a Sony store. Most people wouldn't know what a Yoga or Transformer Book or Series 7 Slate is if they hadn't tried to search for Surface Pro alternatives. But by now most people know the Surface is a brand.

And even if people don't buy the Pro but go get another Win8 convertible, it's still a win for MS because they're a software company - propagating their Windows ecosystem is more important to them than selling hardware.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:47 PM   #566
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Um, any Win8 laptop? Like the dude said? Many of which are cheaper than the Surface. And he didn't specify anything about Apple, you did.
This is just bs, by the same token any macbook can do what the ipad can. How is it going to play here boys? If apple has a tablet out, it can do things differently and arguably better than a notebook and serve a special purpose, but as soon as microsoft comes out with a tablet then it's oh what's the use for it, anyway notebooks can do all these things. You can't have it both ways. Either tablets don't have a special purpose and use then both the ipad and the surface are redundant crap for affluent societies, or they do have different uses and then we don't unfairly compare them to notebooks to begin with.

On your second point, you are wrong again dude, he clearly mentioned the ipad. So here's my list of what it can do that the ipad can't:

-2013 Tablet UI with live updating tiles and not a anachronistic phone os
-Bonded Glass with 2-3 time LOWER reflectance than the ipad
-Cleartype Font
-Typing cover
-Full Office apps
-NON proprietary USB plug to:
a.Drag and drop stuff.
b. Plug in periferals, keyboards, hard drive, mice etc.
-SD Card Slot so you can be in control of storage.

And am adding:
Run the immense windows software application library on a tablet.

This is a woop ass tablet kids in what it can do, and it's very, very well priced. And I ll be soon putting my money where my mouth is and buying it to try it out. I predict excellent sales for ms on the pro. It doesn't matter that some people's fanboism won't allow them to accept what's coming.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:55 PM   #567
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This is just bs, by the same token any macbook can do what the ipad can. How is it going to play here boys? If apple has a tablet out, it can do things differently and arguably better than a notebook and serve a special purpose, but as soon as microsoft comes out with a tablet then it's oh what's the use for it, anyway notebooks can do all these things. You can't have it both ways. Either tablets don't have a special purpose and use then both the ipad and the surface are redundant crap for affluent societies, or they do have different uses and then we don't unfairly compare them to notebooks to begin with.

On your second point, you are wrong again dude, he clearly mentioned the ipad. So here's my list of what it can do that the ipad can't:

-2013 Tablet UI with live updating tiles and not a anachronistic phone os
-Bonded Glass with 2-3 time LOWER reflectance than the ipad
-Cleartype Font
-Typing cover
-Full Office apps
-NON proprietary USB plug to:
a.Drag and drop stuff.
b. Plug in periferals, keyboards, hard drive, mice etc.
-SD Card Slot so you can be in control of storage.

And am adding:
Run the immense windows software application library on a tablet.

This is a woop ass tablet kids in what it can do, and it's very, very well priced. And I ll be soon putting my money where my mouth is and buying it to try it out. I predict excellent sales for ms on the pro. It doesn't matter that some people's fanboism won't allow them to accept what's coming.
You forgot the digitizer pen feature.
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 05:05 PM   #568
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You forgot the digitizer pen feature.
Right. I forgot it twice, I was going to put it in the original list too.
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 11:40 AM   #569
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You do have a point.. Now can you please go and buy a surface. We need you to keep the competition alive.

----------



i can tell you that screen will fall apart after a year.. mobile devices should have very little moving parts.

----------



Did you buy one yet.
Why post if you're not even trying to bring anything of worth to the discussion?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 03:32 PM   #570
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So much for all the doom and gloom stories regarding Surface RT.
MS increasing production and expanding distribution.

Sales must have been better than assumed in the media.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/...lDistroPR.aspx
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 03:44 PM   #571
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Who would buy a tablet from Microsoft? They simply don't get it. They made their tablet like a laptop mini. That's not what people what in a tablet. Most people already have laptops with proper keyboards. Why pay just as much if not more for a lower-powered version with a crappy keyboard and less battery life? Plus the RT has a gimped OS. That was a bad mistake to begin with. It's totally unwise to try to create fragmentation rather than reduce it.

Besides all this MS needs to hire a better ad agency to help it come up with its product names. Surface? Sounds so unsexy. Not to mention superficial. And who wants to say, "come check out my Surface" unless you wanted to sound creepy of if you're a girl want to invite sexual harassment.

And what was up with Zune? What is Zune, anyway? Is it supposed to be some science fiction link, like Dune the movie or sounding a bit like Jupiter, or Jupiter Moon? Or hinting about summer like June is soon?
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Old Dec 11, 2012, 05:08 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Al Muhammed View Post
Who would buy a tablet from Microsoft? They simply don't get it. They made their tablet like a laptop mini. That's not what people what in a tablet. Most people already have laptops with proper keyboards. Why pay just as much if not more for a lower-powered version with a crappy keyboard and less battery life? Plus the RT has a gimped OS. That was a bad mistake to begin with. It's totally unwise to try to create fragmentation rather than reduce it.

Besides all this MS needs to hire a better ad agency to help it come up with its product names. Surface? Sounds so unsexy. Not to mention superficial. And who wants to say, "come check out my Surface" unless you wanted to sound creepy of if you're a girl want to invite sexual harassment.

And what was up with Zune? What is Zune, anyway? Is it supposed to be some science fiction link, like Dune the movie or sounding a bit like Jupiter, or Jupiter Moon? Or hinting about summer like June is soon?
You troll skills are lacking.
The same argument against RT can be used against the iOS.
I mean really. who wants a gimped OS when you can have OS X right?
They are purpose built operating systems.

Replace the name "Surface" with "iPad" in your argument over the name.

Oh and FYI.. the Zune has been gone for a while now.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 07:51 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by MacFoodPoisoner View Post
How is it going to play here boys?
Well, apparently it plays that you jump all over people for using words in a manner you don't like. Perhaps you could point us to your new world order lexicon?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:02 AM   #574
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Well, apparently it plays that you jump all over people for using words in a manner you don't like. Perhaps you could point us to your new world order lexicon?
new world order? huh? I thought this thread was about the ms surface.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:09 PM   #575
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As far as I am concerned, Microsoft is making a major marketing mistake with the 64GB Surface RT. You can only buy it with the Touch cover for $699. If you want the Type cover, you must spend an additional $129. And there is no option to buy the tablet without a cover as there is with the 32GB model. Absolutely ridiculous.
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