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Old Dec 18, 2012, 02:33 PM   #76
runebinder
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I take it the reason Samsung displays don't exhibit IR is due to the fact they make PLS panels rather than IPS?
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 04:09 PM   #77
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Btw, I just run the rest on my iPhone 4; it did show IR after 2 minutes of stress testing, albeit a rather faint one.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 05:18 PM   #78
Brian Y
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
A properly functional display should not show any IR at all under any condition.



No. If a display exhibits any IR at all, then it's out of specs. Image retention is not a feature of the display... It's just like dead pixels. Dead pixels are not a part of the display.
I'd try reading up on the technology before making blanket statements like that. Many people/companies have acknowledged that Image Retention is actually a "feature" (albeit a negative one) of IPS panels.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 05:32 PM   #79
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I'd try reading up on the technology before making blanket statements like that. Many people/companies have acknowledged that Image Retention is actually a "feature" (albeit a negative one) of IPS panels.
I'd check my sources before making such claims.

Can you post any official link or statement from said people/companies regarding "image retention" being a feature of IPS panels?
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 06:15 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
I'd check my sources before making such claims.

Can you post any official link or statement from said people/companies regarding "image retention" being a feature of IPS panels?
Take it for what its worth, but here's a statement from Apple saying image persistence is normal behavior for IPS panels:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5455?v...S&locale=en_US
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 06:21 PM   #81
Brian Y
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
I'd check my sources before making such claims.

Can you post any official link or statement from said people/companies regarding "image retention" being a feature of IPS panels?
I have.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5455?v...S&locale=en_US

http://support.dell.com/support/topi...rue&doclang=sv

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docvie...d=pos1R1003351
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 06:37 PM   #82
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+1 to you!

This forum can be very helpful but sadly there is a significant contingent that likes to think of themselves as ....

"I am Mac GOD - sole purveyor of truth, do not dare doubt my word or be cast forever upon the fires of h@@l"
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 06:44 PM   #83
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+1 to you!

This forum can be very helpful but sadly there is a significant contingent that likes to think of themselves as ....

"I am Mac GOD - sole purveyor of truth, do not dare doubt my word or be cast forever upon the fires of h@@l"

That is very true.

Although I've used primarily monitors that have use LG panels and I have never had IR problems.

Most likely due to my screensaver popping up 1min if I'm not doing anything, monitor on standy after 5 mins and I turn it off anyway if I leave my desk out of habit.

I really don't see the point in forcing your screen to hold a chequered image for a while just to see if there's anything.

If my monitor has IR in the next week or two when I get my rMBP, during normal use ( and it's bad ) I'll replace it sure. Otherwise I don't see the problem
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 06:51 PM   #84
bill-p
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Originally Posted by mmark77 View Post
Take it for what its worth, but here's a statement from Apple saying image persistence is normal behavior for IPS panels:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5455?v...S&locale=en_US
Apple is the only one in those links that have claimed "image retention" to be "normal" for IPS panels, but I don't see anywhere in any of those links that mention "image retention" being a "feature" of IPS panels.

Also, please note the following:

Quote:
The image retention is caused by leaving the flat panel monitor on with a static image (an image that does not move) to remain on the screen for an excessive amount of time (several hours).
Quote:
IBM is careful to select LCDs that are not prone to image retention
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 07:07 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
Apple is the only one in those links that have claimed "image retention" to be "normal" for IPS panels, but I don't see anywhere in any of those links that mention "image retention" being a "feature" of IPS panels.

Also, please note the following:
Well then here's another:

http://support.lenovo.com/en_GB/deta...DocID=HT051485

And there's lots here:

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d...ge+persistence

As you can see, it's been documented well across various sites, and machines from the MBP to the Nexus 7 have suffered from it. If it's visible during normal use, then it's probably out of spec, but running some arbitrary test which was essentially designed to bring the problem out doesn't say it's faulty.

Also, as for your comment with regard to dead pixels meaning a display is "out of spec" - unless you want to spend thousands on an LCD, then a small number of dead pixels are within spec. I do not know of any manufacturer which guarantees no dead pixels (with the exception of Dell Ultrasharp since they sell ones with dead pixels off as refurbs :P), and even Apple have them (on non-retina displays, I believe it's up to 10, or 5 if clustered together. You can probably multiply this by 4 for retina displays). If you were to change the manufacturing process so that LCDs were perfect, they'd cost 10 times as much.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 07:12 PM   #86
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No, all LG screen will not have this problem. I've had mine for months with no issues. Like another person said, Samsung screens have their own problems.

Also, don't look for problems. Deal with them only if they pop up. The checkerboard tests and all of that other nonsense is ridiculous. Buy the machine, use it, enjoy it. Apple is great with customer service. If you do have an issue, they'll fix it.

Think about it. You could exchange 5 rMBP's and finally get that Samsung screen. But maybe there are dead pixels. Or the GPU goes bad. Or.......

If the one your order arrives with no issues then keep it.
Um, no, Apple doesn't always "fix" it. I have a dead pixel on my 15" rMbp, and I took it into the store, they pretty much said there's nothing they could do. It wouldn't bother me too much if it wasn't near center of the screen.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 07:41 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
Do you mind showing me where the word "normal" or "feature" appears in there?

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LED panels used in the X220 system use In Plane Switching (IPS) technology to provide optimum viewing angles and clarity. Some users have reported an image persistence phenomenon; they are able to create the image persistence by disabling screen savers and leaving a fixed image on their screen for extended periods of time - the persistent image is viewed only with a very light grey or off white background. Our testing indicates that the persistent images completely dissipated in a short time period.

The persistent image is caused by the discharging of residual electromagnetic charges internal to the LCD panel; when this charge has decayed or dissipated the persistent image is gone. This persistence image is not similar to previous generation CRT and monitor issues where the image was "burnt in" on the screen. Any persistent image is not permanent or damaging to the LCD panel.
I can't find it. There's not even a synonym to "normal" or "feature".

Top results point back to this very same discussion board.

Quote:
As you can see, it's been documented well across various sites, and machines from the MBP to the Nexus 7 have suffered from it. If it's visible during normal use, then it's probably out of spec, but running some arbitrary test which was essentially designed to bring the problem out doesn't say it's faulty.
It's well documented, yes. But it's not a "feature", nor is it "normal".

If you want a less arbitrary test, try this: open a blank Safari window (white background) and leave it there. Set the wallpaper to dark gray (one of the default colors). That should be fair for almost any user, right?

Problem is that you'll always have a white background in any window against the dark shadow underneath. So there is always a perpetual high-contrast situation on the display. The "arbitrary test" isn't actually that arbitrary. It's just exaggerating the size of the image retention so that it's more easily noticeable.

Quote:
Also, as for your comment with regard to dead pixels meaning a display is "out of spec" - unless you want to spend thousands on an LCD, then a small number of dead pixels are within spec. I do not know of any manufacturer which guarantees no dead pixels (with the exception of Dell Ultrasharp since they sell ones with dead pixels off as refurbs :P), and even Apple have them (on non-retina displays, I believe it's up to 10, or 5 if clustered together. You can probably multiply this by 4 for retina displays). If you were to change the manufacturing process so that LCDs were perfect, they'd cost 10 times as much.
Like I said, bring said displays in to Apple and they'll gladly replace it. That's the sign that it's not "normal".
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 08:02 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
Do you mind showing me where the word "normal" or "feature" appears in there?



I can't find it. There's not even a synonym to "normal" or "feature".



Top results point back to this very same discussion board.



It's well documented, yes. But it's not a "feature", nor is it "normal".

If you want a less arbitrary test, try this: open a blank Safari window (white background) and leave it there. Set the wallpaper to dark gray (one of the default colors). That should be fair for almost any user, right?

Problem is that you'll always have a white background in any window against the dark shadow underneath. So there is always a perpetual high-contrast situation on the display. The "arbitrary test" isn't actually that arbitrary. It's just exaggerating the size of the image retention so that it's more easily noticeable.



Like I said, bring said displays in to Apple and they'll gladly replace it. That's the sign that it's not "normal".
Read further down:

Quote:
By comparison, IPS LCDs have asymmetrical electrical fields in some small areas, the image persistence phenomenon will occur at the asymmetrical electric fields.
I'm not getting into an argument over semantics with you. IPS panels are prone to IR - it's been proven and I'm not going to try to convince you further - if you still don't believe me/choose to ignore this then that's your problem.

And no, Apple will bend over backwards, often replacing things that are perfectly in spec in order to keep a customer happy.

Also, show me one user who's reasonable daily usage involves a 100% contrasting checkerboard image, with (as you pointed one) one very specific shade of grey as a background. It's unrealistic, and designed to stir up crap. I've experienced people using this test to try to get a new machine, they were told: "If you can reproduce it on something other than that test, using something you do on the machine, I'll replace it". Needless to say they couldn't.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 08:11 PM   #89
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I'm not getting into an argument over semantics with you. IPS panels are prone to IR - it's been proven and I'm not going to try to convince you further - if you still don't believe me/choose to ignore this then that's your problem.

And no, Apple will bend over backwards, often replacing things that are perfectly in spec in order to keep a customer happy.

Also, show me one user who's reasonable daily usage involves a 100% contrasting checkerboard image, with (as you pointed one) one very specific shade of grey as a background. It's unrealistic, and designed to stir up crap. I've experienced people using this test to try to get a new machine, they were told: "If you can reproduce it on something other than that test, using something you do on the machine, I'll replace it". Needless to say they couldn't.
You're still not showing me how it's a "feature" of IPS.

And you want a gray background? Open iPhoto. Or iMovies. Or GarageBand. Or Photoshop. Or Lightroom. Or Illustrator.

A lot of apps now use dark gray backgrounds (even darker than the wallpaper), so if there is any IR, it'll be visible as soon as those apps start.

I am a coder by trade... and I write codes in either XCode or Eclipse... black texts against white background... for multiple hours a day. So yeah, I have good reason to leave a static window for multiple hours.

Also, the last time I had my LG screen, I was able to do exactly this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdhIA8-UIRQ

It's not unreasonable to have a dark gray wallpaper. Dark gray makes things easier to see.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 08:18 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
You're still not showing me how it's a "feature" of IPS.

And you want a gray background? Open iPhoto. Or iMovies. Or GarageBand. Or Photoshop. Or Lightroom. Or Illustrator.

A lot of apps now use dark gray backgrounds (even darker than the wallpaper), so if there is any IR, it'll be visible as soon as those apps start.

I am a coder by trade... and I write codes in either XCode or Eclipse... black texts against white background... for multiple hours a day. So yeah, I have good reason to leave a static window for multiple hours.

Also, the last time I had my LG screen, I was able to do exactly this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdhIA8-UIRQ

It's not unreasonable to have a dark gray wallpaper. Dark gray makes things easier to see.
lol I just watched this video and was like wtf the samsung has image retention too! Turns out it was my own LG panel white line from macrumors over the full screen video... yikes
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 08:30 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by runebinder View Post
I take it the reason Samsung displays don't exhibit IR is due to the fact they make PLS panels rather than IPS?
yes that is correct.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 09:19 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
I have owned displays with non-uniform backlight and non-uniform tint. I always replaced them, and Apple always gave me a perfectly good one afterward.
I haven't seen a single perfectly uniform display. For instance, this review of the nec-pa301w shows that the panel is not uniform. Which still does not stop the monitor from being one of the best professional displays on the market.

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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
You're paying 2 grand for the computer. You shouldn't expect anything less.
I'd rather have an otherwise superb quality, ultra-high-res panel that exhibits some minor IR in an unrealistic stress test than not have any ultra-high-res panel at all. True, Samsung seem to have mastered the technology without being prone to IR. Good for them. So do you suggest that Apple not use LG panels at all? Imagine what that would do to the availability and price of the RMBP.

Again, it is still possible that you are correct and that all LG panels are ultimately flawed and will at some point develop serious image retention. We don't know that yet. And if it turns out to be a serious issue, I am sure that Apple will issue a recall/extended warranty period as they have done with the faulty Nvidia GPUs in the past and the 2011 iMac HDDs.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 09:49 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by mikeheenan View Post
Um, no, Apple doesn't always "fix" it. I have a dead pixel on my 15" rMbp, and I took it into the store, they pretty much said there's nothing they could do. It wouldn't bother me too much if it wasn't near center of the screen.
Take it 'up the chain' to Apple support. A bad pixel in the middle Of the screen is incredibly distracting. Use their 800#

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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
You're still not showing me how it's a "feature" of IPS.

And you want a gray background? Open iPhoto. Or iMovies. Or GarageBand. Or Photoshop. Or Lightroom. Or Illustrator.

A lot of apps now use dark gray backgrounds (even darker than the wallpaper), so if there is any IR, it'll be visible as soon as those apps start.

I am a coder by trade... and I write codes in either XCode or Eclipse... black texts against white background... for multiple hours a day. So yeah, I have good reason to leave a static window for multiple hours.

Also, the last time I had my LG screen, I was able to do exactly this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdhIA8-UIRQ
Hi Bill. Not sure where you're not understanding him...I think he did a decent job showing that ghosting can be a byproduct of IPS technology. Not necessarily a 'feature' but a possibility you could have challenges.

There are very, very few actual panel manufacturers on the market for the panels. LG is the big one. Almost all NEC an EIZO panels are LG...the top of the high end photo/video monitors start with an LG panel. Manufacturers are then able to add their own algorithms and/or augmenting electronics... But ultimately they start with LG. Samsung is actually a smaller distributor of panels. I believe Sony still uses Samsung, as does Apple-and of course Sammy themselves.

There are going to be bad apples (pardon the pun) in every batch of electronics that aren't hand made. Just goes with the turf of mass production. If you've got a bad monitor, as the one on the video (I've got a pair of rMBPs--1 almost 5 months old, the other just shy of 10 weeks. Both LG. neither with IR)

I, too, use static UIs all day, typically close to 90% brightness. Audition mainly, Premier, AE, PS, and FCPx are usually up n running. As well, I tend to leave chrome or mail up without screen savers. It sucks others are getting these ugly monitors but it's definitely not ubiquitous in LG IPS panel production. While it CAN be a byproduct of the technology, it's not a guarantee that it's a constant problem...and the inherent qualities that come of IPS tech significantly outweighs this minor issue. (Again, if your panel's IR subsides in seconds or without IR at all). TN panels can't hold a candle to IPS color, contrast, blacks, whites, uniformity....the list goes on an on.

Hence the reason LG is the backbone of Dell' ultrasharp monitors, EIZO, NEC, and more

Here's an article on Anandtech reviewing an NEC monitor.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5752/n...istancy-matter

Jer
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 10:27 PM   #94
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Sup y'all,

I had an LG display - burn in didn't set in until 4 months after purchase. Apple replaced it with a Samsung display.

It passed their "test" (highly skeptical of this garbage they use). But I pulled up my powerpoints (how I noticed it) and let it sit for like 4 minutes, and bam, burn in.

None so far with this samsung display, but I JUST got it back.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 11:58 PM   #95
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I haven't seen a single perfectly uniform display. For instance, this review of the nec-pa301w shows that the panel is not uniform. Which still does not stop the monitor from being one of the best professional displays on the market.
Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Here's a rMBP with Samsung display that has white point within 10%, and backlight within 10 nits uniformity:

Thumb resize.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/42529004

Quote:
I'd rather have an otherwise superb quality, ultra-high-res panel that exhibits some minor IR in an unrealistic stress test than not have any ultra-high-res panel at all. True, Samsung seem to have mastered the technology without being prone to IR. Good for them. So do you suggest that Apple not use LG panels at all? Imagine what that would do to the availability and price of the RMBP.
Yeah, I suggest that Apple re-evaluates LG as a supplier for Retina display panels, and that they switch to using Samsung panels until LG gets their quality control in order. That is... if this is really such a huge issue.

Quote:
Again, it is still possible that you are correct and that all LG panels are ultimately flawed and will at some point develop serious image retention. We don't know that yet. And if it turns out to be a serious issue, I am sure that Apple will issue a recall/extended warranty period as they have done with the faulty Nvidia GPUs in the past and the 2011 iMac HDDs.
I never said all LG panels are ultimately flawed. In fact, your suggestion that "image retention" is "normal" for IPS panels is pretty much suggesting that all LG panels are ultimately flawed. It's your notion. Not mine.

I'm not of the opinion that all LG panels are flawed. I still believe there are perfectly uniform and perfectly flawless LG panels out there. The majority of MacRumors users are those seeking solutions to issues, so it's more overblown here.

However, that doesn't strike "image retention" out as an "issue".

Even if I were to agree with the articles you listed, most of them still say that it takes hours for image retention to show. Not mere minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akdj View Post
Hi Bill. Not sure where you're not understanding him...I think he did a decent job showing that ghosting can be a byproduct of IPS technology. Not necessarily a 'feature' but a possibility you could have challenges.
Yeah, but it's a true "issue" when it shows up within minutes. The possibility is there, but very small, and it needs time to build up. Even the articles he linked to mentioned that it would take literally hours for this to happen.

Quote:
There are going to be bad apples (pardon the pun) in every batch of electronics that aren't hand made. Just goes with the turf of mass production. If you've got a bad monitor, as the one on the video (I've got a pair of rMBPs--1 almost 5 months old, the other just shy of 10 weeks. Both LG. neither with IR)

I, too, use static UIs all day, typically close to 90% brightness. Audition mainly, Premier, AE, PS, and FCPx are usually up n running. As well, I tend to leave chrome or mail up without screen savers. It sucks others are getting these ugly monitors but it's definitely not ubiquitous in LG IPS panel production. While it CAN be a byproduct of the technology, it's not a guarantee that it's a constant problem...and the inherent qualities that come of IPS tech significantly outweighs this minor issue. (Again, if your panel's IR subsides in seconds or without IR at all). TN panels can't hold a candle to IPS color, contrast, blacks, whites, uniformity....the list goes on an on.

Hence the reason LG is the backbone of Dell' ultrasharp monitors, EIZO, NEC, and more

Here's an article on Anandtech reviewing an NEC monitor.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5752/n...istancy-matter

Jer
The thing is... it's not just LG that gives you this option of having a high resolution, high quality display. Samsung does, too, and it's not really that hard to get a Samsung display for your rMBP.

You can just walk into any Apple Store and ask Apple to replace the display panel to that of a Samsung one. You don't have to keep replacing the whole computer. It takes one try.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 02:43 AM   #96
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You can just walk into any Apple Store and ask Apple to replace the display panel to that of a Samsung one. You don't have to keep replacing the whole computer. It takes one try.
So in Ireland, there are NO Apple stores.
There are a few resellers, but barely any places that do repairs. Those that do repairs are usually independent and charge a lot just to look at a macbook

The normal option here is so ship it back to Apple, which means a week, sometimes more to get something done.

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Old Dec 19, 2012, 04:06 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by bill-p View Post
Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Here's a rMBP with Samsung display that has white point within 10%, and backlight within 10 nits uniformity:

Thumb resize.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/42529004
Wait, now I am confused. First you say that you only accept perfectly uniform displays, which implies zero tolerance on deviations of any kind but then you proceed to call a panel with a relative standard deviation of 4.5% for color and 10% for brightness a perfect one. So you do have tolerances after all? Then why its so far fetched to say that there is also a tolerance for IR (e.g., no visible afterimages after 2 minutes of stress test).
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 06:32 AM   #98
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Wait, now I am confused. First you say that you only accept perfectly uniform displays, which implies zero tolerance on deviations of any kind but then you proceed to call a panel with a relative standard deviation of 4.5% for color and 10% for brightness a perfect one. So you do have tolerances after all? Then why its so far fetched to say that there is also a tolerance for IR (e.g., no visible afterimages after 2 minutes of stress test).
I believe the reason lives under a bridge.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:04 AM   #99
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So in Ireland, there are NO Apple stores.
There are a few resellers, but barely any places that do repairs. Those that do repairs are usually independent and charge a lot just to look at a macbook

The normal option here is so ship it back to Apple, which means a week, sometimes more to get something done.
But it's not like you're completely out of options, right?

And a week or two is normal... unless you absolutely can't be without the machine for that long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leman View Post
Wait, now I am confused. First you say that you only accept perfectly uniform displays, which implies zero tolerance on deviations of any kind but then you proceed to call a panel with a relative standard deviation of 4.5% for color and 10% for brightness a perfect one. So you do have tolerances after all? Then why its so far fetched to say that there is also a tolerance for IR (e.g., no visible afterimages after 2 minutes of stress test).
Tolerance for IR? That's rich...

What part of "it should take multiple hours for IR to show" don't you get?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:07 AM   #100
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....

The thing is... it's not just LG that gives you this option of having a high resolution, high quality display. Samsung does, too, and it's not really that hard to get a Samsung display for your rMBP.

You can just walk into any Apple Store and ask Apple to replace the display panel to that of a Samsung one. You don't have to keep replacing the whole computer. It takes one try.
I don't know that it's quite that simple. As I said, with two LG panels...I'm unable to see ANY IR on either. Seems to me it would be tough sell @ the Apple store if this screen passes muster. Not to mention...other tertiary 'strengths' I enjoy with an LG screen....or any different panel, as they are ALL unique--truly, no one monitor will ever measure the same as another from the SAME manufacturer in the SAME production run!!! To me, if you get a 'good looking' monitor--stick with it!!! Buy AppleCare (it's a firt gen computer, this only makes common sense) and you're covered for three years. If there TRULY is a ubiquitous problem for some reason with ALL LG monitors on the rMBP, they will either A) Be recalled or B) Be replaced under warranty, as you said

I guess my point is not to automatically return your MBP because it has an LG pane---nor automatically ask for a replacement.

As I said in my post--LG manufactures monitors and panels for the very BEST and MOST respected companies in the world when it comes to the attributes professionals are looking for in the high end segment. There are plenty of other elements that go into making an excellent monitor and LG excels in this arena. If you have a dud--you area absolutely, 100% correct!!! Bring it back! I just think this histeria, that seems to only be prevalent here @ MR, should definitely NOT dissuade future decision making for interested buyers---

---It truly is, after almost thirty years of buying computers the absolute BEST machine I've ever owned!!! It, to me, is an absolute engineering marvel. Seems like the industry as a whole is interested---PC Magazine even reviewed it!!! Sorry, but to me it seems such a shame that this issue---which can easily and almost instantly be resolved---has been blown SO FAR out of proportion, it's ridiculous....especially when it comes to such a fine piece of technology

J
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