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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:17 AM   #1126
Zombie Acorn
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Originally Posted by VulchR View Post

But wouldn't you rather find some other way of keeping the government in check? Particularly since there are examples of people overthrowing oppressive regimes without resorting to force? What would it take to reassure you that weapons weren't needed? I am genuinely interested because I hate guns but I also understand why people distrust governments.
The government and police would not disarm themselves, why should they ask the citizens to?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:24 AM   #1127
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...Sorry to be mired in the "feel good hysteria of the uninformed,"...
Yeah, I'm sorry too.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:28 AM   #1128
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Yeah, I'm sorry too.
Hmmm. You didn't refute any of my facts.

The best you could do was toss off an oblique personal attack which I generously teed up for you.

That doesn't speak well of the strength of your argument.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:30 AM   #1129
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Hmmm. You didn't refute any of my facts...
I didn't have to, nor do I feel any need to. They are, after all, your facts.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:30 AM   #1130
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One common theme here between The CT shooting, the OR mall shooting, Virginia Tech, and Columbine, is that these cowardly shooters all targeted so-called "gun free zones". Schools and shopping malls.
Otherwise known as: places with lots of people in small concentrations.

If I want to go out in a blaze of glory mowing down dozens of people, I'm not going to head to a family farm, someone's home theater, or to the local check-cashing joint. I'm going to head somewhere where there are lots of people around: schools, shopping malls, stadiums, etc. These places also have a stigma attached to them that will hold a memory. In a year, no one is going to think about the guy who shot up a Wal Mart. But, a school? He'll be remembered forever.

I think you're putting a little more thought into the "gun free zone" than the shooter is.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:32 AM   #1131
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Felons? You mean felons who are in jail? The ones that can't even go to a gun show?
You have heard of this system called parole right? Felons who finish serving their time are let out of prison. They are still considered felons but you wouldn't know just looking at them. Any person like this could totally walk in to a gun show, and if they aren't doing checks, how are they supposed to know this person is a convicted felon?

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When was the last time a terrorist used guns to shoot up the place here in the States?
Friday?

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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
Yeah, I'm sorry too.
You cannot produce one legitimate reason as to why a normal civilian would need a rifle with a 30 round magazine that can fire all these rounds in just a few seconds.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:33 AM   #1132
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Getting back to Adam Lanza, it looks as though his mother was in the process of trying to have him committed.

Yeah, it's Fox


Hopefully the people who are blaming his mother will stop and think a bit, as this indicates she was aware of the problem and was trying to do something about it, despite the wheels of the system turning slowly.

Supposedly [one portion of] his motive was that he felt his mother cared more for the schoolchildren where she volunteered than for him.

There's also a fair bit of speculation going around the interwebz that he suffered from congenital analgesia (insensitive to pain).
if it is true that she was looking at ways to have him committed, than that would make her share a larger part of the responsibility for what happened.

one thing is if she didn't realize he could be a danger, but if she did, than having those weapons in the house is simply unforgivable (not to mention teaching him to shoot, if those reports are true).

also you'd think that at least some of her friends and family would have conveyed to her that a 'crazy', angry young man and such powerful firearms in the house are not a wise mix.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:35 AM   #1133
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I didn't have to, nor do I feel any need to. They are, after all, your facts.
Who would you qualify as being "informed"? Only those that agree with you? And why do you get to decide who is "informed" and who isn't? I shared a quote from Joe Scarborough who specifically mentioned "assault rifles" and high capacity magazines as being a real issue. Or does a person who received the NRA's highest ratings (whatever the heck that means) not qualify?

And just is case you've forgotten what you so easily dismissed yesterday....

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And our Bill of Rights does not guarantee gun manufacturers the absolute right to sell military-styled high-caliber semi-automatic combat assault rifles with high capacity magazines to whoever the hell they want.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:36 AM   #1134
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Fact: High capacity magazines used in these mass shootings have been a "real issue".

Fact: The ability to fire dozens of rounds of ammo in seconds have been a "real issue".

Fact: The ability to fire dozens of rounds of ammo without having to stop and reload have been a "real issue".


Sorry to be mired in the "feel good hysteria of the uninformed," CalWizard.

What "real issue" do you believe I'm overlooking?
Hi-cap magazines are a "real issue". Banning them will not get rid of the many millions already circulating (though it will make them more expensive). The magazines already in circulation will be usable long after we're dead, so the only way to get rid of them is to legally compel their surrender for destruction.

This is a thorny issue. Clamping down on future sales of hi-cap magazines could reduce the chance that one will be used in a mass shooting. But the part that should scare you most is that most of the the hi-cap magazines that will be used in the next dozen worst mass shootings over the next ten years have probably already been manufactured, purchased and are in the hands of the future killers or their parents. How do you get to those?

One way to help is to convince the people who own those magazines of the need to better secure them. The importance of proper storage of firearms (just like with household chemicals or fireworks) cannot be understated. Most accidents with guns could have been prevented if basic storage/handling procedures were taken seriously. The same goes for guns kids steal from their parents to commit mass shootings.I think laws that require guns to be properly secured in the home could be even more effective in preventing mass shootings than a simple hi-cap magazine ban.

Perhaps, in the future, hi-cap magazines will have to be serialized and purchased with a background check just like a gun.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:42 AM   #1135
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Hi-cap magazines are a "real issue". Banning them will not get rid of the many millions already circulating (though it will make them more expensive).
True.

It's a wonderful state that Americans have created.

Flood the society with guns and ammo.

Then claim that nothing can be done because the country is flooded with guns and ammo.

Brilliant.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:45 AM   #1136
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When was the last time a terrorist used guns to shoot up the place here in the States?
Off the top of my head, 2009. You might remember Nidal Hasan who killed 13 and wounded 28 at Fort Hood. All we needed were more people with firearms training and more guns and it would never have happened, right?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:49 AM   #1137
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Two questions:

Can you mention one industry, where self-regulation has lead to all-round benign consequences?
The internet

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If your problem is the state, why do you not do anything about it?
Agorism is my solution.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:50 AM   #1138
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True.

It's a wonderful state that Americans have created.

Flood the society with guns and ammo.

Then claim that nothing can be done because the country is flooded with guns and ammo.

Brilliant.
That's not quite true. Most conservative gun owners I've come across see the solution as more, not less guns. In their minds, if everyone was armed crime would drop because the criminals would begin to fear their intended victims. A smaller (but significant) number also feel that armed citizens remain a deterrent against tyranny by the state.

So it isn't that they claim nothing can be done to stem the numbers of guns in society. On the contrary, they claim the problem is that there are too few guns. Needless to day, I completely disagree with this nonsense.

This divide in opinion closely parallels liberal/conservative divides on more v less taxes, more v less regulation of businesses. Both sides are looking at a very similar desired solution but are approaching it from very different directions. I don't think everyone who thinks that way is foolish, but I do think their approach is utterly wrong.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:52 AM   #1139
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
There are magazines for the AR-15 that can hold 100 rounds. I think the max for a 9mm is the 33 round magazine that Jared Loughner used.
So a very large difference. One that can easily be even improvded on by banning high capacity magazines . Plenty of such killers have been stopped when reloading by civilians to make this a real difference.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 11:58 AM   #1140
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if it is true that she was looking at ways to have him committed, than that would make her share a larger part of the responsibility for what happened.
I disagree. He was 20 and therefore an adult. She had no legal power over him.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:03 PM   #1141
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Off the top of my head, 2009. You might remember Nidal Hasan who killed 13 and wounded 28 at Fort Hood. All we needed were more people with firearms training and more guns and it would never have happened, right?
Did you forget about Sandy Hook already?

Or is it just because it was a white kid and not a muslim that he's not considered a "terrorist"?
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:05 PM   #1142
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That is absolutely not true. That's like saying a Smart Car is faster than a Ferrari...
That can be true depending on what and how you measure.


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A hand gun is nowhere near as easy to use and not nearly as capable in ballistic terms. A semi-auto handgun is arguably less reliable than a wheel gun in such a confrontation to begin with as in stress shooting semis easily jam. This is seen time and time again and therefore the trade off of increased magazine capacity of a semi over a wheel is debatable. In such a confrontation, the SW 686+ 4 inch is probably the best single defensive pistol, or Ruger GP100 (I believe that is their 4 inch).
In smaller confines like a house I do believe a handgun is easier, less bulky .

The point remaines : its easier to store,use,handle, cheaper and just as effective chasing away criminals.



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Further, you could shoot an assailant 5 times with a handgun to the chest and they could still return fire and kill you (this happens pretty often...look at many of the police training videos of deadly shootings where police shoot a suspect who shoots back after being shot multiple times). If you shoot someone mid-center with an AR's 5.56mm NATO, they aren't going to be returning any fire. The historic purpose of a pistol was to fight your way back to your long gun.
Sorry that is not true .357 or .45 are just as able to stop someone. You dont need penetration you need stopping power.

Actually its been a long debate wether the nato 5.56 actually has enough stopping power.


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Are there issues with civilian AR-15 ownership? Absolutely. But let's debate on the facts and weigh both sides of the argument rather than paint a unilateral picture.
And what unilateral picture did I paint?

I said for most people if not all a handgun/pistol would be better suited for home defense (the reason given for the vast mayority of why they own weapons)

So if there are better alternatives on the market, whats the point of allowing it?

Same goes for high capaicity magazines.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:14 PM   #1143
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Did you forget about Sandy Hook already?

Or is it just because it was a white kid and not a muslim that he's not considered a "terrorist"?

Hardly. I chose it because it was done on an army base. You know, a place with lots of trained gun users and guns.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:29 PM   #1144
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Off the top of my head, 2009. You might remember Nidal Hasan who killed 13 and wounded 28 at Fort Hood. All we needed were more people with firearms training and more guns and it would never have happened, right?
Sureee, off the top of your head...

Some called him a terrorist(Right), some called him crazy, some just saw him as a muslim who was really angry about what was happening with the war(Left), and had every right to be angry. It wasn't clearly a terrorist act.

People raised concerns about his mental stability and motives before the shooting. Responsible people would've taken the necessary precautions before the incident occurred.

More guns at the precise scene would probably prevent most of the deaths at Fort Hood, he probably would've killed more people if someone didn't shoot him. Now he's paralyzed at least now he gets to live a ****** life.

Also

They were at an army base and he owned guns "legally".
So him and other army members at Fort Hood having a lot of guns shouldn't be a surprise to you.
No one talked about gun control after fort hood..
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:36 PM   #1145
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Just read this at Andrew Sullivan's blog. I'm just going to leave it here.


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"I am certainly not an advocate for for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors," - Thomas Jefferson.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 12:40 PM   #1146
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They were at an army base and he owned guns "legally".
So him and other army members at Fort Hood having a lot of guns shouldn't be a surprise to you.
No one talked about gun control after fort hood..
I think that was the point.

Even in a location where people had access to firearms and expert training, they still could not prevent a mass shooting from occurring.

The idea that by putting more guns in the hands of more people would prevent these shootings is put into question by the Ft. Hood incident.

----------

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Just read this at Andrew Sullivan's blog. I'm just going to leave it here.
Jefferson's quote were the wisest words posted in this thread.

And don't have a prayer of being heeded on this issue.

Nice try though.

Last edited by citizenzen; Dec 19, 2012 at 12:46 PM.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:08 PM   #1147
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The government and police would not disarm themselves, why should they ask the citizens to?
In the UK the police at least do not routinely patrol the streets carrying firearms. I am not sure whether the fatality rate of UK police from attacks is higher than the US, but subjectively it is low (enough to make national news typically). Instead of armed patrols, the UK relies mostly on armed response teams that are only called out when there is a high danger to the public. Since most US police officers never fire their firearm while on duty, perhaps it would not be as much as a stretch as you imagine. Perhaps limiting the numbers of armed police and other government agents would allay some worries about the government.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:23 PM   #1148
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I think that was the point.

Even in a location where people had access to firearms and expert training, they still could not prevent a mass shooting from occurring.

The idea that by putting more guns in the hands of more people would prevent these shootings is put into question by the Ft. Hood incident.
Someone shot him and he stopped...

And at Fort Hood, they don't carry weapons around them the way you would like to think. They're locked away.

The only people who are allowed to openly carry guns on them at Fort Hood are military police. Some soldiers complain about this.
source:
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-na-fo...085,full.story
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:52 PM   #1149
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Someone shot him and he stopped...
Not before he killed 13 people and wounded 29 others.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:58 PM   #1150
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Not before he killed 13 people and wounded 29 others.
So, you're saying that U.S. Army soldiers should not have access to firearms.

That's just brilliant.

To follow suit, I think U.S. Air Force pilots should not have access to jets.
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