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Old Dec 20, 2012, 09:46 AM   #26
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Thanks.

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Why does the name of the forum matter? It's just some guy's idea, apparently, and all the applicable content is posted here.
It matters because seeing the source and reading the post in a context makes it possible to have an opinion about it, which again can have an impact on the discussion the OP has started.

There's no reason not to provide a source for something you bring up for discussion, especially when a member asks for it (re the Rules for Appropriate Debate).
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:06 AM   #27
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Why is there a conflation of firearms ownership and car ownership? Surely they're separate issues?
There are plenty of Americans who don't care for guns, but absolutely rely on cars. The conflation is a device to drag them into the argument via scare tactics (”they're coming to take away your cars!!!"). All of a sudden, the pro gun argument appears to have more supporters.

Pretty transparent.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:37 AM   #28
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Some of the posts on that forum are downright scary.

However, it's quite ironic that these people on the right want to "prohibit the mentally ill from owning guns and driving" when they are so delusional and continue to cling to their guns and religion. Maybe they should take their own advice and get rid of their guns and stop driving.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:52 AM   #29
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No it's not. Here's the OPs reasoning for starting the thread over there.

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It has became painfully obvious in the last week that the anti forces have the momentum and WILL push anti laws HARD.

If we are to prevail, I believe that we MUST get out in front of this with our own plan. We must formulate legislation that will pacify the masses while furthering OUR agenda.
The link seems to be down now, so I can't verify the source.

This is the part that puts it in context. This is about "furthering an agenda", straight from the horse's mouth.

I think linking driving and ability to use a gun are ridiculous. Like someone else said above, I know a LOT of people who are perfectly fine behind the wheel, but the thought of them carrying a gun all the time would terrify me.

Somehow, they're trying to convince us that because people can be killed by cars, that they are the same as a gun. OK...then kill a deer from a hundred yards away with a car. Same thing, right?

An all-out gun ban is not the answer, and is only called for by the extreme left. Unfortunately, that's what most of my right-leaning friends seem to think is what everyone else wants.

What we need is heavy regulation and a required training/competency test. No one should just be able to go buy a gun without training. You can't get a driver's license without taking a road test in most cases (and usually after going through driver's ed), so why should you be able to buy a weapon with the purpose to kill without training or testing? And as for the competency test, I'm not talking about being mentally ill or not. I'm talking about the people who can't even figure out how to flip a switch without being told how (I have seen people who are this dumb), or the people who just don't have the personality to deal with stressful situations. The last thing I want is someone who freaks out when they see a spider (me) to be carrying a gun around without training.

That is what I don't understand. Why anyone would be against required training or abilities test? Why should it be a gun free-for-all as long as you're not deemed mentally ill?
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:10 AM   #30
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Well this would certainly cut down gun ownership, not to mention traffic and car pollution ... About 1 in 4 people in the US will have a diagnosable mental illness within their lifetime.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:22 AM   #31
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Some of the posts on that forum are downright scary...
Yeah, I went to look at the original calguns.net post that started this MR thread - but it's been removed. Interesting. Wonder why?

And yeah, some of the posts over there seem a bit unhinged, whereas others are more balanced. Interesting crowd.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by zioxide View Post
Some of the posts on that forum are downright scary.

However, it's quite ironic that these people on the right want to "prohibit the mentally ill from owning guns and driving" when they are so delusional and continue to cling to their guns and religion. Maybe they should take their own advice and get rid of their guns and stop driving.
You would be surprised at the number of people on the left that own guns. Also, you might be surprised that not all gun owners on the right, cling to guns and religion.

Don't paint groups with such a broad brush.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:00 PM   #33
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Really like the idea of a sanity test to renew a driver's license, which is then used in a background check for buying a weapon. Some of the others are either crazy (Armed teachers and armed volunteer parents? WTF? I would never feel safe in school.) or would never pass congress (No restrictions on semi-automatic guns? Good luck NYC.). But the sanity check absolutely needs to be a thing. You do have to wonder what happens if someone owns weapons and THEN fails a sanity test, though.

I feel like this is an issue that both sides can really compromise and come up with something that the American public can understand. People are calling for real change for the first time, and the NRA doesn't seem like it is going to be the Grover Norquist that they usually are. As I've said in other threads, there is a sensible compromise somewhere, and people really want it.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:05 PM   #34
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I see two things missing from the quoted list.

1) A working definition of "a history of mental illness". Given the number of people in this country that are or have been on some mind-altering drug, at its broadest this could automatically exclude a large segment of the population.

2) Be able to show proof of completing a firearms training and safety course before being issued your license.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:06 PM   #35
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This is an interesting combination of two apparently opposite ethoses:

A) The Second Amendment exists for the citizenry to protect itself against the government.
B) All gun owners need to have a up-to-date psych profile on record with the government.

I'm surprised this was floated on a gun forum, as it seems antithetical to their beliefs. How was this received?
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:09 PM   #36
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... No restrictions on semi-automatic guns? ...
I'm curious. Could you humor me and give me your definition or understanding of what a semi-automatic gun is?

Thanks.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:17 PM   #37
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You would be surprised at the number of people on the left that own guns. Also, you might be surprised that not all gun owners on the right, cling to guns and religion.

Don't paint groups with such a broad brush.
Oh I know. The crazies (on both sides) are always the most vocal though.

If more moderates spoke up and drowned out the extremism coming from both sides our country would be a much better place.


There's still no good reason why anyone would need a semi-auto rifle with a 30+ round magazine. If fully automatic guns are banned, than these should be too. They'll cause the same amount of damage, and the only difference is whether you just hold down the trigger or keep pulling it.

It's not a good weapon for home defense.. you would be better off with a shotgun or a .45 pistol (or similar) with hollow point rounds.

It's not a good weapon for hunting.. because lets face it, if you need 30 rounds to kill a deer, you're a **** hunter and should go find another hobby.

Target shooting? You can shoot targets just as well with a bolt-action hunting rifle, shotgun, pistol, etc. I mean, it seems like many target shooters use .177 air rifles or .22 rifles anyways. You don't need to use an AR-15.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:23 PM   #38
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Oh I know. The crazies (on both sides) are always the most vocal though.

If more moderates spoke up and drowned out the extremism coming from both sides our country would be a much better place.


<clip>


Target shooting? You can shoot targets just as well with a bolt-action hunting rifle, shotgun, pistol, etc. I mean, it seems like many target shooters use .177 air rifles or .22 rifles anyways. You don't need to use an AR-15.
Hard to shoot some matches at Camp Perry without one. There are lots of folks shooting matches with AR's...
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:22 PM   #39
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I'm curious. Could you humor me and give me your definition or understanding of what a semi-automatic gun is?

Thanks.

Can we please stop with the damn semantics already? We get the talking point. You know damn well what people are referring to when they use gun terminology incorrectly.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:25 PM   #40
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Can we please stop with the damn semantics already? We get the talking point. You know damn well what people are referring to when they use gun terminology incorrectly.
Yes, I do. And I will continue to point this out in whatever manner I can as long as people voice such strong sentiment about something that they have absolutely zero insight into.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:29 PM   #41
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Yes, I do. And I will continue to point this out in whatever manner I can as long as people voice such strong sentiment about something that they have absolutely zero insight into.
Yes, unless one knows all the correct terminology, they can't possible be fed up with the gun violence in the US and want somethings done.

This is why your side is going to lose. You're unwilling to compromise, fall back on the same old tired NRA talking points and basically make excuses for gun deaths using every and any other imaginable way people die. They've worked up until now because the public didn't care that much. 20 dead kids changed that.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:30 PM   #42
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Yes, unless one knows all the correct terminology, they can't possible be fed up with the gun violence in the US and want somethings done.

This is why your side is going to lose. You're unwilling to compromise, fall back on the same old tired NRA talking points and basically make excuses for gun deaths using every and any other imaginable way people die. They've worked up until now because the public didn't care that much. 20 dead kids changed that.
Are you seriously that blind to all the compromises that gun supporters have mentioned in the large number of gun-related threads??
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:37 PM   #43
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Yes, I do. And I will continue to point this out in whatever manner I can as long as people voice such strong sentiment about something that they have absolutely zero insight into.
Oh please. What a desperate argument.

You also chose to ignore a question I asked earlier in the thread. What makes you an expert and why do you get to qualify how much someone has to know before they can voice "such strong sentiment"?

I posted a link to Joe Scarborough (who has a perfect rating from the NRA)using the term "assault rifle" - are you going to say that he has "zero insight" also?

Stop regurgitating the same, old, tired NRA BS. Just because you can parrot all of their propogranda doesn't mean your "insight" is better than anyone else's.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:40 PM   #44
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Yes, unless one knows all the correct terminology, they can't possible be fed up with the gun violence in the US and want somethings done.

This is why your side is going to lose. You're unwilling to compromise, fall back on the same old tired NRA talking points and basically make excuses for gun deaths using every and any other imaginable way people die. They've worked up until now because the public didn't care that much. 20 dead kids changed that.
I certainly want something done, and have advocated stricter, functioning firearm regulations several times in various threads in this forum.

I will continue, however, to question those who want to ban something when they have no idea what they are attempting to ban.

That type of action is simply ignorant.

----------

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Oh please. What a desperate argument.

You also chose to ignore a question I asked earlier in the thread. What makes you an expert and why do you get to qualify how much someone has to know before they can voice "such strong sentiment"?

I posted a link to Joe Scarborough (who has a perfect rating from the NRA)using the term "assault rifle" - are you going to say that he has "zero insight" also?

Stop regurgitating the same, old, tired NRA BS. Just because you can parrot all of their propogranda doesn't mean your "insight" is better than anyone else's.
I absolutely do not parrot NRA propaganda. I think they are 180 degrees on the wrong side, and have said so before in this forum... more than once.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:41 PM   #45
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Are you seriously that blind to all the compromises that gun supporters have mentioned in the large number of gun-related threads??
All the compromises? I see 2 members who are gun owners and advocating for stricter laws. The rest, I see the same old NRA talking points and trying to justify gun deaths with death by other objects.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:44 PM   #46
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I absolutely do not parrot NRA propaganda. I think they are 180 degrees on the wrong side, and have said so before in this forum... more than once.
Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so....

Arguing semantics would be the first clue...
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:48 PM   #47
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Arguing semantics would be the first clue...
First clue to what? That in this case, semantics are actually important?

Just because I'd like people to have a basic knowledge of a subject, and understand the relevant terminology in order to have an intelligent conversation, does not in any way mean anything more than just that.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:49 PM   #48
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Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so....

Arguing semantics would be the first clue...
I strongly suspect that if I were posting arguments concerning banning something related to the lesbian lifestyle because I was misinformed symantically about some term, you would be hammering me over the head unmercifully.

We all have our priorities.

Ignorant speech is ignorant. Period.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:50 PM   #49
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First clue to what? That in this case, semantics are actually important?

Just because I'd like people to have a basic knowledge of a subject, and understand the relevant terminology in order to have an intelligent conversation, does not in any way mean anything more than just that.
When the intelligent conversation begins, please let me know.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:51 PM   #50
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When the intelligent conversation begins, please let me know.
Just waiting for everyone to be speaking the same language
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