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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:06 PM   #26
ctdonath
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Originally Posted by CalWizrd View Post
Whether it be the gun show loophole, inadequate storage habits or sloppy/ignored background checking, we definitely need to try to limit the wrong people from acquiring firearms.

On this topic they remain totally silent.
Well, when those "solutions" have absolutely nothing to do with the situation in question, there's not much to say.

When someone is willing to commit major felonies and violent crimes to achieve the goal, setting up more rules for the law-abiding doesn't help. He was turned down from buying a gun, had to kill someone to steal one, shot his way into the school, ... unless you're for outright long-term involuntary institutionalization of mentally ill people (and word is he did it because he was about to be), fact is that nothing you're proposing or implying would have stopped him. He didn't buy it at a gun show. Storage didn't stop him (if you live in a home long enough, you can figure out how to get into everything). Background checks only briefly deterred him. Just like illegal hard drugs - prohibited everywhere under intense active federal interdiction - which can be obtained with ease if one is willing to cross the legal lines, he had a goal and darned near nothing was going to stop him.

Only one thing could stop him - the same thing that stopped another would-be mass shooting a few days later (golly, you haven't heard that one reported because there was little to report because the way of stopping the attacker WORKED): voluntarily armed citizens.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:09 PM   #27
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What can the NRA say about this really. Did you expect something different.

I do believe allowing teachers who are willing and able to carry guns, should be able to carry guns with the right training and controls.

A posted armed guard is only going to do so much. If every school has one then the next phyco knows who to avoid or kill first.

However not knowing which teachers may or may not be armed is vastly different. 6 adults and not one of them armed.

I also blame the parent for not having proper locks on the weapons.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:16 PM   #28
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I'm disappointed that he tried to blame video games and movies - they're no more to blame than the guns themselves.

Too many people are trying to look for a place to lay blame for bad behavior, instead of laying it squarely on the perpetrator where it belongs.
They may also need to lay that blame on themselves, depending on what they have done to help the perpetrator.

I recall a scene from Bowling for Columbine, when after the parents and teachers blamed games, music, and primarily Marilyn Manson for everything that happened. Michael Moore interviewed Manson, and asked him that in light of what happened and what they said, what would he have to say in rebuttal to their claims and what would he have said to Klebold and company.

Manson said that he wouldn't have said a single word. He would have sat there and listened to them. He would have listened to what their troubles were and why they feel the way that they do, because it was obvious that the parents, teachers, counselors, and peers didn't; especially their peers, after they were bullied past all tipping points.

As far as Newtown goes, autism and Asberger's aside, did anyone else try to listen to what Adam had to say?

What about the student that handed out bullets as a Christmas present at school today? What about the student who was arrested for plotting to shoot and blow up his school?

We have talk here about dealing with mental health first. That may help longterm, but that doesn't stop the instant problem of the accessibility to guns to be able to do something like this. If we want any real noticeable affect, both dealing with the mental issues and the accessibility to guns has to be dealt with at the same time.

The NRA made the most idiotic speech today, asking to have armed guards at every school in the country. That doesn't make kids feel safe; to the contrary! that would scare the hell out of the kids to know that you have that deadly of a weapon near them. They talk about the video games being violent, but yet they want to have the tool that causes such violence in visible or plain sight nearly every day of the school year in the place where they are supposed to learn. That is the absolutely dumbest solution.

I don't know which is more asinine: the entire NRA's stance as a whole, or the fact that they would rather sacrifice the well-being of a child during their learning process at school to keep hold of their precious guns.

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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:17 PM   #29
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This just puts the icing on the cake: Columbine had an armed deputy on campus.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:19 PM   #30
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This just puts the icing on the cake: Columbine had an armed deputy on campus.
Ouch. Burned.

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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:21 PM   #31
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The NRA made the most idiotic speech today, asking to have armed guards at every school in the country. That doesn't make kids feel safe; to the contrary! that would scare the hell out of the kids to know that you have that deadly of a weapon near them.
I don't agree with this. I went to more than one school which had an armed police officer stationed there. Nobody was afraid of him. Do you seriously believe children are afraid of the police?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:22 PM   #32
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video games, mental illness, gun free school zones, are all to blame...

as far as video games go, I find it truly ironic that parents go out of their way to protect kids from pornography, yet allow them access to highly graphic video games..
The bull crap myth that video games (and heck even TV shows/movies - nobody mentioned them) cause violence has been proven time and time again to be a complete farce, an excuse used to ignore the real reasons. These things usually happen because the person is mentally unstable in the first place, or has a poor family upbringing. Not because they sat on their Xbox playing GTA.

Extensive research has shown this, it's not something pulled out of thin air, like the claims the NRA have spewed out today.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-to-be-violent
http://www.thelocal.se/37756/20111206/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/11479041
http://gamepolitics.com/2008/03/25/s...al-families-do
http://ideas.time.com/2011/12/07/vid...-kids-violent/
http://videogamesdontcauseviolene.gamingcollege.net/

It's strange how people can make such a blatant ******** claim and not back it up with...well...ANYTHING.

The NRA used this as a floor to debate politics, not address the real issue.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:22 PM   #33
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Does that include owning guns?
First, I was making a joke.

Second, ownership of guns is one of those "swing your fist ends where my nose begins" problems. You want to store a pile of guns in your garage. Go nuts. You want to plink targets at a range, shoot a deer, creepily "clean" your gun over and over? Have at it. But, the minute that gun kills somebody, that freedom evaporates.

The frisson between ownership and the use is complicated and thus injects the public into personal rights. Just as speech changes when it moves away from the private.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:29 PM   #34
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Well, when those "solutions" have absolutely nothing to do with the situation in question, there's not much to say.

When someone is willing to commit major felonies and violent crimes to achieve the goal, setting up more rules for the law-abiding doesn't help. He was turned down from buying a gun, had to kill someone to steal one, shot his way into the school, ... unless you're for outright long-term involuntary institutionalization of mentally ill people (and word is he did it because he was about to be), fact is that nothing you're proposing or implying would have stopped him. He didn't buy it at a gun show. Storage didn't stop him (if you live in a home long enough, you can figure out how to get into everything). Background checks only briefly deterred him. Just like illegal hard drugs - prohibited everywhere under intense active federal interdiction - which can be obtained with ease if one is willing to cross the legal lines, he had a goal and darned near nothing was going to stop him.

Only one thing could stop him - the same thing that stopped another would-be mass shooting a few days later (golly, you haven't heard that one reported because there was little to report because the way of stopping the attacker WORKED): voluntarily armed citizens.
You are correct in your points... these steps would not have been a deterrent in this particular event (although perhaps if his mother had the weapons secured in a manner that he couldn't penetrate there might have been a different outcome).

And as I stated in a previous post, those who have valid concealed carry licenses should be able to carry in virtually any venue. And I agree that if that were the case an armed teacher or other school employee might have been able to prevent or molify the ultimate outcome.

Given all of that, I still maintain that the acquisition of firearms needs to be much more intelligently monitored and controlled. I don't think that any legal owner of firearms will find this an unreasonable burden to bear.

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Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
...strange how people can make such a blatant ******** claim and not back it up with...well...ANYTHING...
WOW. I agree totally with this statement!

Of course, I'm looking at it through the lense of all of the hysterical ranting about semi-automatic firearms, and the mythical "assault weapon".

Blatant ******* claims with no backing, and even without any undertsanding of what the claim even infers.

Thanks for the quote.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 01:29 PM   #35
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I don't agree with this. I went to more than one school which had an armed police officer stationed there. Nobody was afraid of him. Do you seriously believe children are afraid of the police?
But the NRA wasn't exactly saying that it should be 'police'. They wanted armed guards, without saying how or what they think the most advantageous scenario would be.

My stepfather worked as a school guard for an elementary school after retiring from the police department after 30 years of service. he also patrolled there while he was on the force as well, and I will agree that seeing someone in uniform with the weapon would create the sense of safety. But that is not what the NRA is offering, or at least as far as what their press conference stated that I have read. It could be anybody plainclothed, or even just on contract. We wouldn't know if they would flip out as much as anybody else. At least with police and our branches of military, we know that they have taken an oath to their service and can be expected to live up to that oath.

We wouldn't know anything about any other contract service.

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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:07 PM   #36
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Today's discussions, my email inbox and the apparent apocalypse have reminded me of Yeats:


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity....

*The Second Coming, by William Butler Yeats.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:19 PM   #37
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it would figure they would go with the stupidest possible 'solution'.

not surprising really, but one would have hoped they realized that no one except the extreme fringe would think this is an acceptable answer.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:32 PM   #38
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Like it or not, the NRA is right that we need armed guards in schools. Be honest, most of you would have been saying how stupid and insensitive the NRA is nomatter what they said today. They could have supported the AWB and people on here would be saying that they didn't support it enough.

Here's the reason we need armed guards in schools: there is nothing to stop another shooting like this from happening on the first day of school after Christmas break. NOTHING. We can change our culture of violence, create a new AWB, ban handguns, ban magazines, fix our mental health system, but there is probably another crazy person out there as we speak who already has a gun and may shoot up a school at any moment. Unless you can accomplish all of those other goals in a week I don't see another option.

"How do we pay for this" is a stupid argument. It needs to be done. We usually manage to find a way to pay for things that are much less important, like invading middle eastern countries, so why can't we afford to protect schools full of children in our own country? Police departments can spare a few officers to hang out at schools and communities can pay for it.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:37 PM   #39
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And as they were blaming my Xbox,
http://kotaku.com/5970497/while-the-...-hook-shooting
I usually try to stay away from non tech news, but now it is impossible to do so. IMO, like many others (here and elsewhere) its not the games fault, but the persons, I'm not recommending that anybody wanting to buy a game with a rating over PG-13 should have a full psych evaluation done on them beforehand, but the fact that people want to blame everything on technology these days is outrageous. I have Asperger Syndrome (basically high functioning Autisim) and I am obsessed with technology, that does not mean that it caused my AS, that I was born with. If you want to ban video games, social media, pizza rolls, etc, BECOME AMISH, IT WILL SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS!

Thank you for letting me rant here.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:38 PM   #40
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What a crock of ****.


Their only "solution" is to arm our schools like they're in the middle of Fallujah?

If these people are this stupid and delusional than they don't deserve to own ANY gun. Period.


Quote:
Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
video games, mental illness, gun free school zones, are all to blame...
You know what else is to blame? The fact that nearly all of these shooters have had relatively easy access to guns.

Guns are the problem. The pro-gun crowd needs to stop dancing around the real issue with all of their nonsense.

Quote:
as far as video games go, I find it truly ironic that parents go out of their way to protect kids from pornography, yet allow them access to highly graphic video games..
That's a debate for another thread.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:40 PM   #41
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Here's the reason we need armed guards in schools: there is nothing to stop another shooting like this from happening on the first day of school after Christmas break. NOTHING.
So where else should we station armed guards?

At every day care center? Every park? Every playground?

What's to stop a shooting from happening on the first day after Christmas break. NOTHING.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:43 PM   #42
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So where else should we station armed guards?

At every day care center? Every park? Every playground?

What's to stop a shooting from happening on the first day after Christmas break. NOTHING.
Just have armed soldiers on every street corner like it's WWII Nazi Germany all over again.

It seems like the gun nuts on the right are intent on turning America in to a third world country like Somalia, where everyone's on there own, nobody gets healthcare or education, people live in the streets, and militia are everywhere with their AK-47s.

There was a mass shooting in PA today.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BK0Y520121221

Quote:
(Reuters) - Four people died on a Pennsylvania highway on Friday when a gunman shot dead three people and later was killed in a shootout with police, authorities said.

Three state troopers were injured in the incident in Frankstown Township, about 100 miles east of Pittsburgh.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:51 PM   #43
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It seems like the gun nuts on the right are intent on turning America in to a third world country like Somalia, where everyone's on there own, nobody gets healthcare or education, people live in the streets, and militia are everywhere with their AK-47s.
Jesus, no ****.

Obviously, the thing to do is disarm ... not escalate the problem.

Unfortunately, this country is populated by too many paranoid and fearful people who feel lost without their binkies ... I mean guns.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 02:56 PM   #44
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So...

I'm opposed to gun control that only hurts law-abiding citizens by banning things based more on how they look than how they function.

I also can't stand the NRA. I'm a liberal. I believe that firearm rights are a liberal position, not a conservative position. (I support the Liberal Gun Club.)

This isn't a solution. This is "security theater" just like the TSA's over-burdensome "security" tactics.

But, I do like their plan from one perspective: The NRA - essentially a wing of the Republican party - is promoting increasing US Federal spending by billions of dollars to pay for tens of thousands of new government union employees... That's just an epic level of irony right there.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 03:08 PM   #45
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Like it or not, the NRA is right that we need armed guards in schools. Be honest, most of you would have been saying how stupid and insensitive the NRA is nomatter what they said today. They could have supported the AWB and people on here would be saying that they didn't support it enough.

Here's the reason we need armed guards in schools: there is nothing to stop another shooting like this from happening on the first day of school after Christmas break. NOTHING. We can change our culture of violence, create a new AWB, ban handguns, ban magazines, fix our mental health system, but there is probably another crazy person out there as we speak who already has a gun and may shoot up a school at any moment. Unless you can accomplish all of those other goals in a week I don't see another option.

"How do we pay for this" is a stupid argument. It needs to be done. We usually manage to find a way to pay for things that are much less important, like invading middle eastern countries, so why can't we afford to protect schools full of children in our own country? Police departments can spare a few officers to hang out at schools and communities can pay for it.
See my previous post for a rebuttal.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 03:14 PM   #46
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I went to more than one school which had an armed police officer stationed there. Nobody was afraid of him. Do you seriously believe children are afraid of the police?
And particularly the kind of child who goes into a violent situation expecting or wanting to die as a result of that violence? Arrest, death or injury are not deterrents to those who are disturbed enough to do something like this in the first place.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 03:19 PM   #47
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Just have armed soldiers on every street corner like it's WWII Nazi Germany all over again.

It seems like the gun nuts on the right are intent on turning America in to a third world country like Somalia, where everyone's on there own, nobody gets healthcare or education, people live in the streets, and militia are everywhere with their AK-47s.

There was a mass shooting in PA today.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BK0Y520121221
ever been to Manhattan? cops with machine guns are prevalent.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 03:21 PM   #48
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Like it or not, the NRA is right that we need armed guards in schools. Be honest, most of you would have been saying how stupid and insensitive the NRA is nomatter what they said today. They could have supported the AWB and people on here would be saying that they didn't support it enough.

Here's the reason we need armed guards in schools: there is nothing to stop another shooting like this from happening on the first day of school after Christmas break. NOTHING.
Yet it was this same amount of nothing that stopped any shootings of this type pre-Columbine, and that was with TV shows all over the place shooting guns at eachother, video games using guns (don't think that this just started with CoD and the like nowadays.. Postal, Spy Hunter, Double Dragon, Ikari Warriors, and the like all had this before any of the perps in the shootings were a gleam in their parents' eyes), yet none of this happened before 1999. NONE. What stopped it then? a good dose of common sense, which has been lost in the kids nowadays because their parents are letting TV and video games raise them instead of them taking on the roles of parents like they should.

Did you miss APlotdevice's post about there being an armed guard at Columbine, and yet that didn't prevent it? I think that alone shot down your solution.

If that didn't, then I wonder why the superintendent of the school district in Jericho, Long Island and others seem to disagree with you:

Quote:
Parents Hesitant About NRA Armed Schools Proposal

by The Associated Press
December 21, 2012 2:35 PM

MIAMI (AP) — The reactions of parents, teachers and school administrators ranged from hesitation to anger on Friday after a proposal by the nation's largest gun-rights lobby to put an armed police officer in every school.

Superintendent Hank Grishman of the Jericho, N.Y., schools on Long Island said he is outraged by the idea. He says putting more guns in schools won't make children safer.

"Their solution to resolve the issue around guns is to put more guns in the equation?" said Girshman, an educator for 44 years. "If anything it would be less safe for kids. You would be putting them in the midst of potentially more gunfire."

The National Rifle Association called for the armed officers in every American school at a press conference Friday, breaking its silence on last week's shooting rampage at a Connecticut elementary school that left 26 children and staff dead.

Parent and community activist Helen Gym in Philadelphia believes the NRA's proposal is "extraordinarily opportunistic." Philadelphia schools have debated and rejected the use of armed guards or police officers in its city schools. The district, with about 146,000 students in nearly 250 schools, instead relies on unarmed school police.

The goal is to de-escalate violence, Gym said.

"This is not an Old West shootout," she said. "We're talking about an elementary school."


There are an estimated 10,000 school resource officers, most of them armed and employed by local police departments, currently in the nation's schools, according to Mo Canady, executive director of the National Association of School Resource Officers.

Canady said these officers help bridge the gap between the schools and police, and often develop a close enough relationship with parents and children that they feel comfortable coming forward with information that could prevent a threat. He said that if the proposal is pursued, it should include be sworn law enforcement officers trained to work in schools.

"I don't believe that just putting an armed guard in there is going to make the school safer," he said.
So like I said: if it were a police officer that is actually on the force, it might have merit, but won't make the school environment safer, especially due to crossfire.

Imagine the police department, let alone the police officer having to explain to the parents of a slain child that their child was killed because they were caught in the crossfire between police trying to take the bad guy down.

Then imagine the same thing with just some armed contract guard who isn't bound by such oaths that the PD and other armed services take.

BL.

Last edited by bradl; Dec 21, 2012 at 03:34 PM. Reason: corrected proper citation of a post
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 03:23 PM   #49
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ever been to Manhattan? cops with *machine guns* are prevalent.
Really?

I thought police were armed with submachine guns or assault weapons.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 03:26 PM   #50
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So the NRA thinks the solution to a gun problem is to bring more guns into the equation? If you fight fire with fire, all you get is burned... and a BIGGER fire. Seriously, NRA should stand for National Retards Association. We all (in the US) have a right to bear arms*

* in connection with service in a state-organized militia.

The original intent of the framers of the US Constitution was to give citizens a right to bear and keep arms in a militia. This was so that people in each of the States could maintain a militia. Sure, we now have a national army and such, but the constitution never explicitly protected the right to bear and keep arms regardless of context and circumstance. It was only due to to horrendous decision of DC v Heller that we have this gun control fiasco in the first place.
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