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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:19 PM   #76
Windlasher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpat View Post
I love it when fanboys bash an entire country for enforcing a law that's beneficial to customers.
I think the bashing is because Italy's economy sucks right now just like the greek economy. It's a joke dude... smile. How many cracks about the US laws do we wade though on a daily basis?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:21 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by iMikeT View Post
As much as opposed to corporations owning a country (which is all ready happening especially here in the USA) but as an AAPL share holder, I'd get a piece of Italy!

My first order of business would be to kick Vatican City out of Italy and take back that square mile of land then open up a gelato factory in it's place.
Amidst all of the hubris... there is hope. Awesome, under-the-radar comment.

Well done.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:20 PM   #78
davebarnes
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Huh?

Was Apple fined EUROS of DOLLARS (US)?
I think it was/is Euros.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:53 PM   #79
Fairfax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpat View Post
I love it when fanboys bash an entire country for enforcing a law that's beneficial to customers.
You got that right, if Apple did something to those very same fan boys that they don't agree with they will be at this forum crying the blues.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 10:32 PM   #80
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Baaad Apple! Bad!
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 11:31 PM   #81
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This doesn't make sense. If their countries have a national law that states all products have 2 year warranties, then what does Apple need to advertise? Everyone should already know it's law that ALL their products have 2 year warranties.

Are Apple and other companies supposed to reiterate their countries own laws?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:54 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Kaibelf View Post
Oh for the love of GOD. Can't the EU inform their OWN citizen about such a major law? Instead they have their hands out because Apple isn't doing it for them? Apple's not lying by offering an extended warranty, and there needs to be a limit before people should expect to at least do SOMETHING to be aware of the laws in their own country.
Well said, especially from the land that puts legal warnings on everything!
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:08 AM   #83
Ironduke
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Originally Posted by HelveticaRoman View Post
Well said, especially from the land that puts legal warnings on everything!
but wont put ingrediants on food stuffs, because it might hurt profits
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:38 AM   #84
HenryDJP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpat View Post
I love it when fanboys bash an entire country for enforcing a law that's beneficial to customers.
Ha, and I love the rest of the people here who do their happy dance every single time there's some negative news about Apple or if Apple is getting a slap on the wrist for not fully complying. And this is suppose to be a forum for Apple enthusiasts....
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:53 AM   #85
weckart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iMikeT View Post
As much as opposed to corporations owning a country (which is all ready happening especially here in the USA) but as an AAPL share holder, I'd get a piece of Italy!

My first order of business would be to kick Vatican City out of Italy and take back that square mile of land then open up a gelato factory in it's place.
Your first order of business should be to get an education. The Vatican is an independent state. It is not "in" Italy so you would not be getting a piece of Italy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by throttlemeister View Post
No, the EU thing is the MINIMUM all countries need to comply to. Most do more.

Here in Holland the duration is specified as "reasonably expected lifetime of a product"; in case of a computer and other electronics devices ~3 years. In case of a washing machine, 7-8 years.

Burden of proof is rather simple: if the product isn't obviously damaged and the consumer claims it was used normally, it assumed the cause of the defect to be present at purchase if it seizes to function within the expected life and therefor required to be repaired free of charge. If the seller wants to get out of it, THEY will have to prove the customer is lying.
If that is the case, then NL law differs markedly from that in in most of the EU in that the burden of proof does not shift from the seller to the buyer after six months. In most other countries, a simple statement from the buyer that the product has not been misused is not enough. Not all misuse leading to failure is apparent and may require independent examination. In other words, hassle, cost and delay in obtaining redress.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:02 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theelysium View Post
This doesn't make sense. If their countries have a national law that states all products have 2 year warranties, then what does Apple need to advertise? Everyone should already know it's law that ALL their products have 2 year warranties.

Are Apple and other companies supposed to reiterate their countries own laws?
Go back and read my post (#54)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ikir View Post
Nope it is not, since second year is only if:
-The problem is not because product is used, it must be born with this problem.
-You can have the second year only if you bought it as private
-You need to bring your invoce/bill
-You have second year only where you bought it
Digressing from your last sentence, it's still better than nothing and the 90% of people is into that parameters. I mean, is that a big problem bringing your invoice?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:34 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaibelf View Post
Oh for the love of GOD. Can't the EU inform their OWN citizen about such a major law? Instead they have their hands out because Apple isn't doing it for them? Apple's not lying by offering an extended warranty, and there needs to be a limit before people should expect to at least do SOMETHING to be aware of the laws in their own country.
Eu citizens know anything about warranty laws but Apple keep advertising an "extended warranty" of two years (I.e. iPhone AppleCare) when you are basically paying just for an extended support.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bma View Post
It's correct. It comes with a 2 year warranty, but a 1 year "Apple Limited Warranty".

The two are very different things - the EU warranty is similar to the warranty provided by the Sale of Goods Act in the UK - we're covered for 6 years, but you try claiming anything after 6 months - it's near on impossible, takes ages, and requires you to "prove" there was an inherent fault.

That's the key different - Apple's warranty (1 year) provides cover for all faults that develop - the EU warranty provides coverage for 2 years for faults that were present at the time of purchase. I think the italian regulator just needed some $$$.
Wrong.
There were no place in apple's website where the "two years warranty" was shown.
All companies changed they warranty policy to follow EU rules (I.e. Nokia warranty was the same of Apple now is 24 months), except for Apple.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:37 AM   #88
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This, coming from the same country that found scientists guilty for not predicting an earthquake.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:38 AM   #89
gpat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitch08 View Post
Sounds low. Apple should raise the price.
Oh, I'm sure they will next year.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:56 AM   #90
Max(IT)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpat View Post
I love it when fanboys bash an entire country for enforcing a law that's beneficial to customers.
Right.
I am a big Apple fan, but they were just wrong about this.
They are selling us unlocked iPhones for an incredible amount of money (just short of 1000$ !!!), and want us to pay another 90$ for a two years coverage that should be granted by EU laws.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lobster68w View Post
This, coming from the same country that found scientists guilty for not predicting an earthquake.
You are reading too much gossip news ...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtherJesus View Post
I wonder if Italy even know what Apple Care offers. It's not just a "warranty". Idiots.
Ok, if it's not a warranty (and it is an extended customer care support) then don't advertise it as a warranty ...


And keep the "idiots" for yourself ...

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikramerica View Post
That's the crux. AppleCare offers 2 years of phone support, 2 years of "bring it in and we will repair it or just replace it", 2 years of advice. The original warranty offers various lengths of that from 90 days to 1 year.

The EU, Italian, UK warranties are not the same. Apple is not required to offer 2 years of free phone support, let alone 1. Nor is walk-in service required. There is a bare minimum Apple must do under those laws, generally far lower a standard than their own warranty.

Apple's problem is that they need to make clear that the EU (others) offers a very limited extended warranty in terms of scope and remedy. Then offer to sell a more COMPREHENSIVE warranty with better terms.

And make no mistake, AppleCare and AppleCare plus are very good programs, very much a "no questions asked" service unless there are clear signs of abuse or damage that obviously caused the problem. I've had plenty of dinged and dented laptops taken in for repair without question because it was obvious that the dings and dents didn't cause the issue. In my experience, they have one of the best extended warranties of any company for anything.

Edit: What the Italian regulators have done is what many governments do -- in the name of protecting citizens, they have instead harmed them by limiting options. Now AppleCare is not available in Italy, and customers are stuck with 90 days to a year from Apple + a crappy 2-year warranty from Italy. No other options. Knowing what I know about the Italian coverage, I'd still choose AppleCare...
I basically agree with you but just to specify: Italian warranties are exactly the EU warranties. No specific national rules here.
UK are just a little different.
And there is nothing like a "crappy 2-year warranty from Italy": all of the Apple's products are serviced by apple Italia, which is ... Apple. Without AppleCare you don't have all the "benefits" of a premium warranty program ... just like you explained before.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by macsmurf View Post
Hey, I'm sure the current owner will give them a great price. All it needs is a bit of rebranding. Change the name to iTaly, slap some rounded corners on that sucker and you're golden.
That's brilliant!
If they will trash the actual politics establishment here, I'll be very happy to live in the new shiny iTaly
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 04:15 AM   #91
bolibic
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More from EU

The problem looks to me like a: don't dry your pet in the microwave oven written in the instructions because someone did that.

Nobody really knows about the EU warranty. The worst part is that the word warranty means something abstract an generic.
  • There is the EU warranty law: 6 months of no questions asked and 18 months you having to demonstrate that the fault was in the product when you bought it. Easy to say, difficult to do.
  • Apple offers it's own warranty. It gives you what the EU asks for and more.
  • Apple care also is an extended warranty program.

I have some theories why this happened.
  • Some dumbass put a warranty in the microwave oven and didn't like the result: saw the one year diagram and cryed loud without reading the text around it.
  • The EU is trying to hide that the good part of the warranty is only 6 months. So they're sending fines to whatever doesn't show a 2 year diagram/bars/whatever.

BTW, I only had problems with resellers and the 6 months/1 year/2 years mess. They tried to convince me that even if the defect was from the beginning (a faulty logic board), apple was givin only one year of warranty.

And perhaps everything started in iTaly in a mess like that.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 07:44 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allenbf View Post
I love Apple. But no need to defend this one. If you're gonna play in the EU, you gotta follow the EU laws.
Agreed. That said, I do not believe malice was intended by APPLE in this case, sloppy documentation perhaps, or maybe just mis-interpretation of EURO laws by online store content developers and ad-copy writers due to the burden of proof by consumers, of prior defects, which does not really exist on this side of the Atlantic. I believe APPLE is, justifiably so, being punished by the Italian authorities for their tardy compliance to the regulators' statement of violations, rather than for deliberate misrepresentation, cause in the latter case the fines could have been much higher.

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Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:06 AM   #93
Max(IT)
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Originally Posted by writingdevil View Post
Do understand the law is EU wide. Also understand where Italy puts its legal integrity. Apple - = Evil, Belusconi = Hero
I wish I could claim this as my observation, but it's second hand from (shh) Italians (who wish to remain nameless, less they be headless, or end up with a horses head in their bed)
My, my, my.
You know exactly NOTHING about Italy and Italians, and your silly post here is the demonstration ...

Italy is one of the best market in Europe for apple products, and berlusconi is politically dead ...
But you forgot to mention "spaghetti pizza and mandolino" in your non sense about Italy ...
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:48 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by TheIguana View Post

This goes more to Apple following the EU's rules than the EU educating the public of the law.
Apple appears to feel that they are above the law.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:54 AM   #95
Brian Y
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max(IT) View Post
Eu citizens know anything about warranty laws but Apple keep advertising an "extended warranty" of two years (I.e. iPhone AppleCare) when you are basically paying just for an extended support.

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Wrong.
There were no place in apple's website where the "two years warranty" was shown.
All companies changed they warranty policy to follow EU rules (I.e. Nokia warranty was the same of Apple now is 24 months), except for Apple.
Erm No - I'm not wrong. It says it comes with a 1 year "Apple Limited Warranty". And it says it, loud and clear, here: http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

You don't have to advertise every single law - if it's implied by law, it's there (i.e. on the motorway, there's not a sign for every motorway law, but the laws are still valid.). Apple's LIMITED warranty is on top of your legal warranty - which is why it always says something like "your statuary rights are not affected". What would you rather happen in month 9 should your iPhone break (remember the burden is on YOU after 6 months)? Apple to replace it (under their limited warranty), or to have to prove that it was faulty at the point of purchase (EU). I know which I'd prefer.

Please check your facts before calling me out like that
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:47 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Kaibelf View Post
Oh for the love of GOD. Can't the EU inform their OWN citizen about such a major law? Instead they have their hands out because Apple isn't doing it for them? Apple's not lying by offering an extended warranty, and there needs to be a limit before people should expect to at least do SOMETHING to be aware of the laws in their own country.
And where is the limit with fanboyism ? Reading your comment, I see none.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:16 AM   #97
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Easy fix raise prices by the cost of applecare and be done with it.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:21 AM   #98
Brian Y
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Originally Posted by Mr.damien View Post
And where is the limit with fanboyism ? Reading your comment, I see none.
It's not fanboyism - it's the truth. Why should Apple (or any company) be responsible for informing people about the law?? Customers have the warranty - it's their right, why should any company have to remind them of that?

When you buy a car - do they remind you that you can't drive without insurance, and that you can't run red lights? No - it's your responsibility to know the law in your country.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by bma View Post
It's not fanboyism - it's the truth. Why should Apple (or any company) be responsible for informing people about the law?? Customers have the warranty - it's their right, why should any company have to remind them of that?

When you buy a car - do they remind you that you can't drive without insurance....
As a matter of fact they do. Car dealerships won't/can't sell you a car without insurance. They will attach their own insurance for 30 days and tell you to add your own after that.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:20 PM   #100
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Found a way to get out of bank ruptsy; fine foreign companies for whatever you can think of.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech198 View Post
Its true though, Apple could just have Not sold devices in Italy. Instead, they chose "on their own behalf" to ignore the law from authorities, who denied Apples agreements...

Question remains, why did they ignore this and continue to push their product(s) if authorities were un-satisfied, and Apple knew this ?

Its like saying "don't stick your hand into fire, you'll get burn't", yet you do it anyway, to see yourself.

This could have come out better.
The disincentive is a few hundred grand. Easier to not bother.

Last edited by dejo; Aug 15, 2013 at 09:26 AM. Reason: restored post.
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