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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:10 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
'Machine gun' generally terms larger caliber than a MP5/MP5SD/MP7. An MP5 is considered a 'subgun' or sub-machine gun as it fires a pistol round. A MP7 or P90 is considered a 'PDW' or personal defense weapon, in that it fires a round often intended to defeat soft armored targets that a pistol round cannot. Some people define a machine gun as something that is belt fed only, but that's getting overly technical for the point of this convo.
That's fair. I just always considered the "machine gun" to be a belt-fed or magazined weapon capable of high-rate of fire and a caliber of 5.56 or higher. So, M249s, M60s, BAR, etc.

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...Class III firearms are rarely used in crimes as they are rare and closely monitored by the BATF. Many people do not realize that civilians can own these and of those who do, even fewer understand how they differ from a traditional semi-auto pistol or rifle.
What do people normally do with these things?

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And keep in mind most firearm companies are European
Sure. The US is still the largest exporter of firearms, beating out Italy and others.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:32 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
Single round
Slow to reload
Short range
Expensive

One person could not have caused such a massacre with is kind of weapon.
Cumbria shootings

A man with a single-shot bolt-action rifle and a breech-load shotgun killed 13 people and injured 11.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:04 AM   #103
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Cumbria shootings

A man with a single-shot bolt-action rifle and a breech-load shotgun killed 13 people and injured 11.
Both of those weapons are still much much more lethal than a colonial musket*. And the crime was committed over a several hour period.

*
- It only takes a few seconds for anyone to reload a modern bolt-action or breech loaded weapon, vs a minute for a highly trained person to reload a musket.
- Improvements in barrel and bullet technology has had a tremendous effect on accuracy and penetrating power.
- The average person would have had difficulty even getting their hands on a musket, simply because, being completely hand made weapons, they were in relatively short supply (and thus expensive).
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:10 AM   #104
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Meanwhile, on Wednesday, a man was arrested in a Sandy Hook Elementary School in Strasbourg VA carrying a two-by-four marked "High Powered Rifle". The man's motivation for doing this has not been established.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:59 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
That's fair. I just always considered the "machine gun" to be a belt-fed or magazined weapon capable of high-rate of fire and a caliber of 5.56 or higher. So, M249s, M60s, BAR, etc.

What do people normally do with these things?

Sure. The US is still the largest exporter of firearms, beating out Italy and others.
Yeah, the classification for it is rather confusing in that law defines it one way where as shooters define it another and makers another.

As far as do, shoot recreationally, which is a big social activity. Buyer's get these things solely for recreational shooting. When they aren't being shot, they are in safes weighing as much as Smart cars. Like, it is an absolute blast to shoot a MP5. It's a great shooting gun, it's easy to become competent with, and it is pretty neat to dump 50 rounds downrange in a matter of a few seconds on full auto (it shoots like a champ on semi and 3-rd burst as well). We had a LE demo which we worked out a deal in which shooters on the range could rent it (after a safety class on its operation) and we'd get people from all over come in, take lessons, and often shoot the MP5...and everyone just absolutely loved it. As for suppressors, you can shoot without ear protection and if you are outside, you don't have to worry about the sound radiating for miles and disturbing others. Unlike the movies though, they are still quite audible, but they reduce sound to a point in which you can shoot without ear protection and not get hearing damage. They are especially popular with .22 LR target guns such as the Ruger Mk3 which is a pure 'plinker' and 45 which is a common round used in competitions loaded in 1911s. To people who don't shoot, that all probably sounds a little strange, but all I can say is don't knock it till ya try it

Many of the guns the US exports aren't of US origin, as odd as that sounds. And some of which are hard to classify who should get credit for the export as many Berettas are made (assembled) in the US, but with parts made in Italy. This is also the case with a few Israeli and Chinese firearms. Some American firearm brands are also produced in other places, such as Canada. Russia exports slightly more than the US. Germany is pretty high (literally every agency uses the MP5 among a few other HK trademarks) and China is somewhere between Germany and the US depending who you ask.

But most of the finest guns in the world come from Europe. Brand names like Sig, Glock, HK, Sako, Fabrique Nationale, etc. are all large producers of firearms, and they are damned fine pieces of equipment. America has a few companies that make splendid firearms in-house, but there are tons of EU firearms that are more 'tactical' (I hate that word) and liked be LE agencies for obvious reasons. Bear in mind almost three-quarters of all law enforcement in the United States carry an Austrian-made pistol...
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 07:58 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
What is it about capitalism that you find so utterly offensive?

The NRA doesn't sell guns. The NRA is made up of people, just people, who believe in the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, and the maintenance of your personal freedoms under that document.

How disingenuous can your posts get? It's a well known fact that the NRA leadership is completely out of step with their membership. Poll after poll show NRA members support sane gun regulations. The NRA leadership is nothing more than a lobbying group for gun and ammo manufacturers.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:09 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
That's fair. I just always considered the "machine gun" to be a belt-fed or magazined weapon capable of high-rate of fire and a caliber of 5.56 or higher. So, M249s, M60s, BAR, etc.



What do people normally do with these things?



Sure. The US is still the largest exporter of firearms, beating out Italy and others.

Machine gun = more than one bullet is fired with a single pull of the trigger...

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...achinegun.html

----------

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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
How disingenuous can your posts get? It's a well known fact that the NRA leadership is completely out of step with their membership. Poll after poll show NRA members support sane gun regulations. The NRA leadership is nothing more than a lobbying group for gun and ammo manufacturers.
Show me these polls please...
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:22 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by glocke12 View Post
Show me these polls please...
Too lazy to do the research on a lazy Saturday morning. How about a recent poll conducted by Frank Luntz?

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The study, which was conducted in May by GOP wordsmith Frank Luntz, revealed the following data points as well:

74 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who have completed gun safety training.

68 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants who do not have prior arrests for domestic violence.

63 percent of NRA members believe concealed carry permits should only be granted to applicants 21 years of age or older.

75 percent of NRA members believe that concealed carry permits should be granted only to those applicants who have not committed any violent misdemeanors.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:18 AM   #109
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Also, on what planet is it a good idea to have teachers carrying guns around? All it'll take is for 1 teacher to drop it, misplace it, etc and we'll have another bunch of kids being killed - guns have no place being anywhere in public, especially in schools.
Are you saying a teacher or a principal can't be trained to be as responsible as a police officer?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:38 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
What is it about capitalism that you find so utterly offensive?
the fact that everything centers around making money, preferably as much as possible, with a total disregard of any moral standard as to how that money is being made

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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
Petrol doesn't cause fires.... Hello?
Guns don't kill people.... Hello?

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Originally Posted by stroked View Post
Are you saying a teacher or a principal can't be trained to be as responsible as a police officer?
this made me laugh hard

Last edited by balamw; Dec 23, 2012 at 08:09 AM. Reason: name-callling
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:43 AM   #111
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now i know you're not the sharpest knife in macrumors' drawer, but here goes: the fact that everything centers around making money, preferably as much as possible, with a total disregard of any moral standard as to how that money is being made

Guns don't kill people.... Hello?
I won't report yet another personal attack on me - since that's a classic move for someone with no logical argument and what all of the left on this forum seem to focus on, but you are wrong again. As usual.

Capitalism is what motivates people to be great at what they do, not just put in their time. As the US moves towards socialism, mediocracy will become the norm.

And no, guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Just like gasoline doesn't start fires, though if you choose to, you can certainly use it to start a fire.

I know this correlation is over your head and I'm sorry to have assumed you could make that connection.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:49 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
I won't report yet another personal attack on me - since that's a classic move for someone with no logical argument and what all of the left on this forum seem to focus on, but you are wrong again. As usual.
you're right about my being wrong in insulting you, so i edited my post

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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
Capitalism is what motivates people to be great at what they do, not just put in their time. As the US moves towards socialism, mediocracy will become the norm.
capitalism motivates people to make as much money as possible through any means necessary --not be great at anything (unless being great at something guarantees lots of money, which it doesn't)

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And no, guns don't kill people. People kill people.
guns make a damn fine tool for that though

one that was designed specifically for that very purpose even
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:54 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
I won't report yet another personal attack on me - since that's a classic move for someone with no logical argument and what all of the left on this forum seem to focus on, but you are wrong again. As usual.

Capitalism is what motivates people to be great at what they do, not just put in their time. As the US moves towards socialism, mediocracy will become the norm.

And no, guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Just like gasoline doesn't start fires, though if you choose to, you can certainly use it to start a fire.

I know this correlation is over your head and I'm sorry to have assumed you could make that connection.
You obviously understand socialism as well as you understand capitalism.

The NRA is a gun lobby. They are more interested in furthering their cause for the gain of their "clients" than they are in our personal freedoms. The train wreck speech yesterday just cemented that. If they could find a way to make money from video games for those they lobby for, they would change their tune in a second.

They're a joke and so are those that feel the need to defend them.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:58 AM   #114
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Are you saying a teacher or a principal can't be trained to be as responsible as a police officer?
I'm saying its a stupid idea to have teachers carrying guns. Read my post about it and try again.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:42 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
And no, guns don't kill people. People kill people.
It's my duty to remind you and others, that if the above is true, then ...

Guns don't protect people. People protect people.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:49 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
Capitalism is what motivates people to be great at what they do, not just put in their time. As the US moves towards socialism, mediocracy will become the norm.
No. Capitalism motivates people to try to make as much money as possible, regardless of whether the product they produce is crap or how many people they hurt or screw over in the process.

If capitalism motivated people to be great at what they did, Walmart would actually be selling quality products instead of the cheapest **** they can sell that breaks after 2 weeks, and corporate restaurants like TGI Fridays, Applebees, etc would actually be selling good, quality, fresh-cooked food instead of frozen microwaved garbage.

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And no, guns don't kill people. People kill people.
This is a stupid and false cliche that got old 20 years ago and doesn't help anyone fix this gun problem.

People kill people WITH GUNS. Eliminating access to guns will mean less overall firearm deaths. Many European countries are proof of this.

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Just like gasoline doesn't start fires, though if you choose to, you can certainly use it to start a fire.
Oh yeah? You going to use that gasoline to put out the fire too?

Quote:
I know this correlation is over your head and I'm sorry to have assumed you could make that connection.
I'd like to see you make a constructive post about how to fix our gun problem instead of just repeating the same old tired cliches that gun nuts like to use to try to avoid acknowledging the real problem facing our country.

How many thousands of people have to die by something that could have been preventable before we DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?


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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
It's my duty to remind you and others, that if the above is true, then ...

Guns don't protect people. People protect people.
How about "Stupid cliches don't fix the problem, action does."
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:57 AM   #117
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Cumbria shootings

A man with a single-shot bolt-action rifle and a breech-load shotgun killed 13 people and injured 11.
This happened in a rural part of a country where the police are largely unarmed.

And frankly the response times for armed response police units always seem to be a bit on the high side - it probably needs reviewing.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:29 PM   #118
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It's my duty to remind you and others, that if the above is true, then ...

Guns don't protect people. People protect people.
I agree, what does this have to do with guns though?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:42 PM   #119
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Are you saying a teacher or a principal can't be trained to be as responsible as a police officer?
Teachers are there to teach, the police is there to police. Simple as that. We'd rather put more effort in educating and helping young children so they won't even get close to the idea of killing other people out of hurt and revenge.

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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
And no, guns don't kill people. People kill people.
But the guns help, don't they?

Rather than getting into an argument, why not diffuse the problem from both sides; on one hand, reduce access to heavy firearms but on the other treat the mentally unstable and prevent them from acting out that badly.

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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
The NRA is a gun lobby. They are more interested in furthering their cause for the gain of their "clients" than they are in our personal freedoms. The train wreck speech yesterday just cemented that. If they could find a way to make money from video games for those they lobby for, they would change their tune in a second.

They're a joke and so are those that feel the need to defend them.
We've been calling them a gun lobby for ages now over in Europe. They are nothing but a PR-machine behind gun ownership in its most traditional way. They will only invest their money and time if the cause is to protect the 2nd Amendment or keeping their guns, just what a lobby does. I also wouldn't be surprised if some of its members have a stake in a video game company.

Electronic Arts comes to mind... their management and PR has about the same maturity as that of the NRA.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:17 PM   #120
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And no, guns don't kill people. People kill people.
So then why don't we just let regular people have tanks? Tanks don't kill people. People kill people. How about nuclear bombs? Nuclear bombs don't kill people. People kill people. (Seriously, these weapons cannot harm a fly without a human hand to direct them.)

The fact is that guns make it a lot easier for people to kill other people. That's why they were invented in the first place. And continuously made more and more lethal.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 04:05 PM   #121
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Capitalism is what motivates people to be great at what they do, not just put in their time. As the US moves towards socialism, mediocracy will become the norm.
Yes, w/o the motivational force of Capitalism driving them forward people like Edger Allen Poe, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Einstein, Marie Curie, Martin Luther King, Jr., George Washington Carver, Picasso etc., would have never reached their full potential as human beings... And just look at the mediocracy that exists in a country like Germany, with its unions and mandatory paid maternity leave. What quality products or influential people have ever come from that country?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 04:43 PM   #122
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But most of the finest guns in the world come from Europe. Brand names like Sig, Glock, HK, Sako, Fabrique Nationale, etc. are all large producers of firearms, and they are damned fine pieces of equipment. America has a few companies that make splendid firearms in-house, but there are tons of EU firearms that are more 'tactical' (I hate that word) and liked be LE agencies for obvious reasons. Bear in mind almost three-quarters of all law enforcement in the United States carry an Austrian-made pistol...
Hey that's not fair, don't blame us if we are better engineers.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 04:50 PM   #123
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But most of the finest guns in the world come from Europe. Brand names like Sig, Glock, HK, Sako, Fabrique Nationale, etc. are all large producers of firearms, and they are damned fine pieces of equipment. America has a few companies that make splendid firearms in-house, but there are tons of EU firearms that are more 'tactical' (I hate that word) and liked be LE agencies for obvious reasons. Bear in mind almost three-quarters of all law enforcement in the United States carry an Austrian-made pistol...

Hey that's not fair, don't blame us if we are better engineers.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 05:00 PM   #124
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They all have assembly operations in the United States
Just like oompa loompas then.

So just like Apple products being made in China.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 05:09 PM   #125
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Hey that's not fair, don't blame us if we are better engineers.
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Just like oompa loompas then.

So just like Apple products being made in China.
Certain parts are made overseas, some here in the U.S., then assembled.

We have import restrictions on Ooompa Loompas
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