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Old Dec 26, 2012, 12:04 PM   #501
duffman9000
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Originally Posted by TheHateMachine View Post
Here is an old crappy 2008 netbook running an ULV Low performance mobile CPU from 2007.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/20119...re.html?page=1

I still have an old box I made back in 2006 that runs Windows 7 flawlessly. Considering Windows 8 is more optimized and lighter than Windows 7 it should honestly have no issues with a Windows 8 install.

I am sure you can get even older tech to run Windows 8 considering a very low end mobile Celeron from 2007 can run it.
You can't get all features though, which is what TennisandMusic stated. You can get most, but not all. Don't believe me? Try turning on Intel virtualization technology in computers that old.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 12:29 PM   #502
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You can't get all features though, which is what TennisandMusic stated. You can get most, but not all. Don't believe me? Try turning on Intel virtualization technology in computers that old.
Granted I do not know anything about Intel Virtualization but is this not a feature offered by the hardware and not the OS. Also the netbook in the article is running a Celeron M 523 which by Intel's own website supports Intel virtualization technology. I highly doubt that a Celeron M 523 would have this feature in previous Windows versions and then suddenly lose it in Windows 8.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 12:36 PM   #503
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Oh you got an iPad for Christmas? Congratulations, it's now the old new new iPad.

And the one you bought in March? That's the old old new iPad.

Introducing.....the new new new iPad.

And coming in June: the new new new new iPad.

Last edited by BRO,RUMAD?; Jan 29, 2013 at 09:17 PM.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 12:43 PM   #504
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This just in: Apple working on new iPad, expected to be better than current model!
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 12:45 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by TheHateMachine View Post
Granted I do not know anything about Intel Virtualization but is this not a feature offered by the hardware and not the OS. Also the netbook in the article is running a Celeron M 523 which by Intel's own website supports Intel virtualization technology. I highly doubt that a Celeron M 523 would have this feature in previous Windows versions and then suddenly lose it in Windows 8.
Do you mean this one?
http://ark.intel.com/products/32241/...Hz-533-MHz-FSB

Rather than confuse you between VT-d and VT-x, I'll use a better example. Try turning on bitlocker on a computer 10 years old. TennisandMusic wants to make a blanket statement that a computer up to 10 years old can run the latest version of Windows with ALL features, which isn't true.

Last edited by duffman9000; Dec 26, 2012 at 12:56 PM.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:17 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Ramchi View Post
You are correct. But the obligation is more out of goodwill than out of necessity for a premium consumer brand. Apple customers valued their trustworthy association thinking that they would not be made fools by holding a week old Apple product already getting outdated in the rumour site.
The boldfaced portion of your above comment equates an emotional response (being made fools of) with Apple releasing more products in a shorter time frame. Why would Apple's releasing a new iPad after you bought yours make you into a "fool"? Is there some high status associated with owning a "current" Apple product? Does that define you as a person?

I feel truly sad for the people who feel this way.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:22 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by duffman9000 View Post
Do you mean this one?
http://ark.intel.com/products/32241/...Hz-533-MHz-FSB

Rather than confuse you between VT-d and VT-x, I'll use a better example. Try turning on bitlocker on a computer 10 years old. TennisandMusic wants to make a blanket statement that a computer up to 10 years old can run the latest version of Windows with ALL features, which isn't true.
It is strange that here it lists all Celeron M having support for VT-x instead of "varies" where as the direct link to the processor omits support.

http://ark.intel.com/Products/VirtualizationTechnology

Regardless I understand what you mean about older hardware not supporting features. The difference we have here between Apple and other companies is Apple will omit features to drive sales for a newer device.

Windows 8 on older hardware will not support bitlocker because of physical hardware limitations... ie the TPM chip is either non existant or a lower revision on older hardware. Where as the the iPhone 4 is missing Siri, Turn by turn and 3D maps and it is likely not a hardware issue as Siri has been ported into rooted the iPhone 4. Other features such as 3d maps and turn by turn are available by 3rd parties on the iPhone 4.

This is somewhat relevant because if Apple is pushing more devices out faster they are more likely to omit key features from older hardware to drive sales. While your device certainly does not run slower or have a lower screen all of the sudden and will function properly... new and interesting features might be absent in later iOS revisions. This seems to be a big issue people have against android.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:28 PM   #508
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Show me this magical 10 year old PC that can run the latest version of Windows. You're also forgetting that new SoCs in mobile devices are becoming much more powerful compared to previous generations. This is unlike PCs where we don't see a huge jump in performance 6-12 months down the line.[COLOR="#808080"]

----------
ARM SoCs are nowhere near a modern PC. Performance of Intel chips and Nvidia/AMD GPUs are still progressing at a solid rate. Not only that Intel is driving power use way down on their CPUs. I would be less surprised to see Intel move into the mobile space in a successful manner, than to see ARM overtake the desktop space.

I am forgetting nothing, I am a software engineer. I know quite a bit more about this stuff than most. What I said before about Apple is absolutely true.

Also, here is a story about installing Windows 8 on a machine built in 2004. Worked fine. XP is still supported, 11 years later or so. Does Apple still support the iPad 1 really, which is less than 3 years old? When iOS is updated, do all of their devices get ALL of the software features? Or does Apple artificially hold things back?

Sorry, like I said, everything I said before is right on the money. Not everyone on Macrumors is just a consumer.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:36 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by TheHateMachine View Post
Here is an old crappy 2008 netbook running an ULV Low performance mobile CPU from 2007.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/20119...re.html?page=1

I still have an old box I made back in 2006 that runs Windows 7 flawlessly. Considering Windows 8 is more optimized and lighter than Windows 7 it should honestly have no issues with a Windows 8 install.

I am sure you can get even older tech to run Windows 8 considering a very low end mobile Celeron from 2007 can run it. Windows 8 is the first revision in the Windows lineup that didn't see a jump in minimum system requirements and actually makes older machines run better than previous revisions.
I have a Gateway workstation, one of the very first Core 2 Duo's (2.4 Ghz), and it runs Windows 7 flawlessly, in 32 bit mode, not 64 bit. I could never get 64 bit to work with an SSD, but I'm limited to 4 GB of RAM so 64 bit is pointless anyway. This is an obsolete machine for my needs, MCAD, and certainly limits my productivity compared to its replacement, a refurbished Lenovo D20 with dual Xeon 5649's and 24 GB per memory bank (I top out at 48 GB per bank). It has an Apple TB display driven by a Nvidia Quadro 4000 and I can add a AMD Firepro 5800 from the Gateway on top of that if it would buy me anything.

That machine I can put in a PCIe SSD and see very balanced performance for the whole machine, and benchmarked against a much higher clocked Sandy Bridge version of the Xeon, I'm at roughly half the CPU performance.

Point being, I doubt that the Celeron machine is your primary machine, nor that you even need to keep it around, but good for MS for the support.

(For the record, I'm running the Sandy Bridge Mac Mini with 16GB memory, Parallels, Windows 7 and I can still add an external PCIe external enclosure for an SSD on TB that would exceed the performance of a SATA SSD.)

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisandMusic View Post
ARM SoCs are nowhere near a modern PC. Performance of Intel chips and Nvidia/AMD GPUs are still progressing at a solid rate. Not only that Intel is driving power use way down on their CPUs. I would be less surprised to see Intel move into the mobile space in a successful manner, than to see ARM overtake the desktop space.

I am forgetting nothing, I am a software engineer. I know quite a bit more about this stuff than most. What I said before about Apple is absolutely true.

Also, here is a story about installing Windows 8 on a machine built in 2004. Worked fine. XP is still supported, 11 years later or so. Does Apple still support the iPad 1 really, which is less than 3 years old? When iOS is updated, do all of their devices get ALL of the software features? Or does Apple artificially hold things back?

Sorry, like I said, everything I said before is right on the money. Not everyone on Macrumors is just a consumer.
As I stated in another response.

What's the point of running Windows 7 on a soon to be 9 year old machine? Does productivity have no value to you?

Of course it does, and I'm betting you are at least on a Sandy Bridge CPU for your primary machine, and looking at Haswell for you next laptop.

Last edited by TMay; Dec 26, 2012 at 01:45 PM.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:38 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by TennisandMusic View Post
ARM SoCs are nowhere near a modern PC. Performance of Intel chips and Nvidia/AMD GPUs are still progressing at a solid rate. Not only that Intel is driving power use way down on their CPUs. I would be less surprised to see Intel move into the mobile space in a successful manner, than to see ARM overtake the desktop space.

I am forgetting nothing, I am a software engineer. I know quite a bit more about this stuff than most. What I said before about Apple is absolutely true.

Also, here is a story about installing Windows 8 on a machine built in 2004. Worked fine. XP is still supported, 11 years later or so. Does Apple still support the iPad 1 really, which is less than 3 years old? When iOS is updated, do all of their devices get ALL of the software features? Or does Apple artificially hold things back?

Sorry, like I said, everything I said before is right on the money. Not everyone on Macrumors is just a consumer.
I'm a software engineer also. Does that make you feel better? Go back and read your statement about ALL features being supported.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:44 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by TMay View Post
I have a Gateway workstation, one of the very first Core 2 Duo's (2.4 Ghz), and it runs Windows 7 flawlessly, in 32 bit mode, not 64 bit. I could never get 64 bit to work with an SSD, but I'm limited to 4 GB of RAM so 64 bit is pointless anyway. This is an obsolete machine for my needs, MCAD, and certainly limits my productivity compared to its replacement, a refurbished Lenovo D20 with dual Xeon 5649's and 24 GB per memory bank (I top out at 48 GB per bank). It has an Apple TB display driven by a Nvidia Quadro 4000 and I can add a AMD Firepro 5800 from the Gateway on top of that if it would buy me anything.

That machine I can put in a PCIe SSD and see very balanced performance for the whole machine, and benchmarked against a much higher clocked Sandy Bridge version of the Xeon, I'm at roughly have the CPU performance.

Point being, I doubt that the Celeron machine is your primary machine, nor that you even need to keep it around, but good for MS for the support.

(For the record, I'm running the Sandy Bridge Mac Mini with 16GB memory, Parallels, Windows 7 and I can still add an external PCIe external enclosure for an SSD on TB that would exceed the performance of a SATA SSD.)
The Celeron is actually the machine listed in the article. As for my box its running a mid range Core 2 Duo. Anyways while the practicality of crunching large files in resource intensive programs in these ancient rigs is dubious... I find it nice that I can have this old 6 and a half year old machine which I have given to my daughter for her web usage, up and running on the latest Windows. That is the real point, these old things can have their lives prolonged and fill other niche uses.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:44 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist View Post
The boldfaced portion of your above comment equates an emotional response (being made fools of) with Apple releasing more products in a shorter time frame. Why would Apple's releasing a new iPad after you bought yours make you into a "fool"? Is there some high status associated with owning a "current" Apple product? Does that define you as a person?

I feel truly sad for the people who feel this way.
Apple is selling a lifestyle. If you buy into Apple because of that reason, that's why people would feel that way. Look at it like this. The day before the new iMac was unveiled, all of Apple's current marketing was about how amazing the iMac was. All of the standard Apple hyperbole applied.

Then, Phil Schiller got on stage, showed the new iMac, and said something along the lines of "isn't it funny how a new design immediately makes the old one look ancient?" So one day the computer is God's (in this case, people would think it was Steve Jobs) gift to the world, but the next day it's ancient? If you don't think this is all purposeful marketing to the "faithful", or a way to create a false need in people, then I think you miss what they are doing. The guy you responded to is a perfect example of that, and I guarantee you it exists on the scale of millions of people.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:44 PM   #513
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It is strange that here it lists all Celeron M having support for VT-x instead of "varies" where as the direct link to the processor omits support.

http://ark.intel.com/Products/VirtualizationTechnology

Regardless I understand what you mean about older hardware not supporting features. The difference we have here between Apple and other companies is Apple will omit features to drive sales for a newer device.

Windows 8 on older hardware will not support bitlocker because of physical hardware limitations... ie the TPM chip is either non existant or a lower revision on older hardware. Where as the the iPhone 4 is missing Siri, Turn by turn and 3D maps and it is likely not a hardware issue as Siri has been ported into rooted the iPhone 4. Other features such as 3d maps and turn by turn are available by 3rd parties on the iPhone 4.

This is somewhat relevant because if Apple is pushing more devices out faster they are more likely to omit key features from older hardware to drive sales. While your device certainly does not run slower or have a lower screen all of the sudden and will function properly... new and interesting features might be absent in later iOS revisions. This seems to be a big issue people have against android.
Siri on a iP4S and later had additional hardware. Raise to speak IIRC. For something that was and is still in beta, Apple didn't want yet another issue to further tarnish Siri. The 3D maps runs sluggish on a iP4. I would say it runs OK on my iP4S. The only feature that I think should have been added is the turn by turn navigation.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:45 PM   #514
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What a surprise milk milk milk..
So glad I moved from Apple onto the Nexus program and the Nexus 10, at least Google listen to what it's consumers actually want bring latest tech at amazing price, and of course, the stock Jelly Bean, fantastic.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:46 PM   #515
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I can't understand why always Android is to blame. Android is a totally different system from iOS, different performance, difference UI, different everything.

I mean Ford and Toyota are major car makers, so Rolls Royce have to catch up with their productivity?

If Apple believes that Android is always inferior to iOS, why Apple still tries to chase after that?
Lol rolls royce? More like scion
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:49 PM   #516
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Lol rolls royce? More like scion
Scion is Toyota so the interchangability with his analogy would not work!
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:58 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by TheHateMachine View Post
It is strange that here it lists all Celeron M having support for VT-x instead of "varies" where as the direct link to the processor omits support.

http://ark.intel.com/Products/VirtualizationTechnology

Regardless I understand what you mean about older hardware not supporting features. The difference we have here between Apple and other companies is Apple will omit features to drive sales for a newer device.

Windows 8 on older hardware will not support bitlocker because of physical hardware limitations... ie the TPM chip is either non existant or a lower revision on older hardware. Where as the the iPhone 4 is missing Siri, Turn by turn and 3D maps and it is likely not a hardware issue as Siri has been ported into rooted the iPhone 4. Other features such as 3d maps and turn by turn are available by 3rd parties on the iPhone 4.

This is somewhat relevant because if Apple is pushing more devices out faster they are more likely to omit key features from older hardware to drive sales. While your device certainly does not run slower or have a lower screen all of the sudden and will function properly... new and interesting features might be absent in later iOS revisions. This seems to be a big issue people have against android.
To drive sales, not so much. Most people buy when their contracts are up, so for them, they have to wait anyway.

Perhaps, and more likely, Apple has established a baseline of performance for the SERVICES that it provides, and I'd suggest that SIRI performance is still marginal on the server side, let alone on the SoC side with the A6.

More to the point, you are comparing a rapidly evolving mobile platform to a desktop environment that is near stasis at the 64 bit threshold, for both OSX and Windows 8.

Do your believe that is a reasonable comparison, especially when comparing with MS support of recent mobile products?
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:05 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by HarryKNN21 View Post
I can't understand why always Android is to blame. Android is a totally different system from iOS, different performance, difference UI, different everything.

I mean Ford and Toyota are major car makers, so Rolls Royce have to catch up with their productivity?

If Apple believes that Android is always inferior to iOS, why Apple still tries to chase after that?
I still can't believe people are making the car analogies. They're kinda outdated these days.

If Rolls Royce sold cars at roughly the same price and competed in the same market as Ford and Toyota, you bet your ass they'd be doing everything within their power to match and surpass their competition.

In the mobile world, Apple isn't the Rolls Royce to Android's Ford and Toyota. They're more like Honda or Chevy.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:11 PM   #519
TMay
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The Celeron is actually the machine listed in the article. As for my box its running a mid range Core 2 Duo. Anyways while the practicality of crunching large files in resource intensive programs in these ancient rigs is dubious... I find it nice that I can have this old 6 and a half year old machine which I have given to my daughter for her web usage, up and running on the latest Windows. That is the real point, these old things can have their lives prolonged and fill other niche uses.
I'm cool with the use you find for older machines, and I have am older 1.8 Ghz core mac mini that is still around and useful with Snow leopard, albeit the drive is a bit flakey, and the attached HP LCD monitor died. I even have a friend with a very old PPC Mac (12 year old) that does nothing but support label printing.

I bet MS would be more excited if a few of the many happy Windows 7 users would migrate to Windows 8, don't you think?

More so, I would assume that the PC industry would be happier if users would abandon their old machines and buy new machines preinstalled with Windows 8.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:15 PM   #520
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I still can't believe people are making the car analogies. They're kinda outdated these days.

If Rolls Royce sold cars at roughly the same price and competed in the same market as Ford and Toyota, you bet your ass they'd be doing everything within their power to match and surpass their competition.

In the mobile world, Apple isn't the Rolls Royce to Android's Ford and Toyota. They're more like Honda or Chevy.
Android would not even rate as a car - it is only software, not the complete hardware/software/app eco-system solution that Apple provides.

And to continue the automobile analogy, I would rate Apple mobile products as a Lexus or Mercedes, rather than a Honda or Chevy - no offense intended.

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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:24 PM   #521
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Wow did this thready get off topic . . .
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:40 PM   #522
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Android would not even rate as a car - it is only software, not the complete hardware/software/app eco-system solution that Apple provides.

And to continue the automobile analogy, I would rate Apple mobile products as a Lexus or Mercedes, rather than a Honda or Chevy - no offense intended.

I think you are close with Mercedes, but Mitsubishi would be another, and perhaps some of the Chinese manufacturers.

First off you have to make trucks, not just pickups because PC's are trucks in the post PC era per Steve Jobs.

Then you need to make luxury cars, sports cars, small cars, SUV's and station wagons. iPad Mini, iPad, iPhone (arguably Apple needs a iPhone Mini for this analogy)

Then you have to have only a single Mark, not multiples using the same platforms as Ford/Mercury/Lincoln, Chevrolet/Pontiac/Buick/Cadillac, Chrysler/Dodge, Toyota/Scion, Volkswagen/Audi, etc

Android OTA's collectively are more like a General Motors with diverse brands on the same platform and no trucks.

Apple is most analogous to Mercedes.

Retort?
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:40 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Jetson View Post
Android would not even rate as a car - it is only software, not the complete hardware/software/app eco-system solution that Apple provides.

And to continue the automobile analogy, I would rate Apple mobile products as a Lexus or Mercedes, rather than a Honda or Chevy - no offense intended.

I disagree, because Lexus and Mercedes don't sell for about the same price as the Fords and Toyotas. An iPad is about the same price and offers about the same features as, say, a Galaxy Tab 10. Plus they rate the same on crash tests.

Tell you what, I'll compromise. Android is Ford and Toyota to Apple's souped up Volvo.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:44 PM   #524
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Jesus no one has to throw out their old gadgets just because a new one is in stores. My iPad still works great and I plan to keep it until the battery dies or there's something much more appealing. It's common sense -- don't buy unless you need.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 02:45 PM   #525
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Apple is selling a lifestyle. If you buy into Apple because of that reason, that's why people would feel that way. Look at it like this. The day before the new iMac was unveiled, all of Apple's current marketing was about how amazing the iMac was. All of the standard Apple hyperbole applied.

Then, Phil Schiller got on stage, showed the new iMac, and said something along the lines of "isn't it funny how a new design immediately makes the old one look ancient?" So one day the computer is God's (in this case, people would think it was Steve Jobs) gift to the world, but the next day it's ancient? If you don't think this is all purposeful marketing to the "faithful", or a way to create a false need in people, then I think you miss what they are doing. The guy you responded to is a perfect example of that, and I guarantee you it exists on the scale of millions of people.
Couple of things, and no disrespect intended, but... First of all, Apple is not selling a lifestyle, they are selling an ecosystem. While you and others may be turning your love of Apple products into a lifestyle, that's not what Apple is selling. I would hope there is lot more to people's "lifestyles" than what generation iPad or iPhone they own.

Regarding newer and better products, of course. Why do you think we have "new and improved Cheerios" or model years for cars? Of course companies refine and change their products over time, but not just to sell more products, they do it to improve their products. What may not have been possible to design and product 12-18 months ago may be possible today. Product design is an evolving process, not something you "get right" the first time and then stick with the same design for life.

However, none of this should matter. It's you, the individual, who is making a material purchase part of your identity. You are the one making it into a lifestyle and then getting p***ed off when Apple comes out with a smaller, thinner, lighter, faster version of whatever you bought. So you're saying that Apple should either "get it right" the first time and never evolve, or it should ignore its competitors and gear its product release schedule to the sensibilities of its insecure customers?
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