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Old Dec 26, 2012, 01:41 PM   #26
Tanax
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Originally Posted by simsaladimbamba View Post
I understand that sentiment, I fully do. But I also rarely use the Mac App Store (MAS) for getting applications, even though it is quite simple, but nowadays, there are still many other sources available for downloading software (directly from the developer for instance), and I still have not contracted any malware, but I also use common sense and the security steps outlined in the Malware FAQ. There is no harm in running ClamXAV, but Sophos and iAntiVirus and similar feces should be avoided, especially since they make your Mac more vulnerable (Sophos) or offer false claims and call trojans or scareware viruses, which they are not (iAntiVirus) or hog down on CPU resources.
But I also rarely switch files between Windows users and Mac users, thus I do not need software to protect others from getting malware (they should have that if they want).

Maybe one day, there is still a decade or so left in X, someone will be able to publish a real virus into the wild, but then again, which AV software will pick it up, as it has no knowledge of any previous encounters?
Of course there will always be hoax-software in the form of AV. I believe that was the purpose of this thread, to find a real and valid AV that is not a hoax/bloatware. I also only download directly from the developer in 99% of the cases. But even in those cases, having an AV to scan a file before installing/opening/playing/using would ease my mind a lot.

Regarding your last paragraph, that is quite a weird statement. Of course there will always be a blackspot when a virus is new and the AV-companies haven't put out an update for it yet. But does that mean that you shouldn't get an AV, is that what you're saying? Because the AV's won't be able to protect you from future threats? I still prefer to have an AV but have yet to find a good option for Mac, one that is effective(obviously) and one that doesn't hog down your system
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 03:01 PM   #27
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 03:21 PM   #28
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Of course there will always be hoax-software in the form of AV. I believe that was the purpose of this thread, to find a real and valid AV that is not a hoax/bloatware. I also only download directly from the developer in 99% of the cases. But even in those cases, having an AV to scan a file before installing/opening/playing/using would ease my mind a lot.

Regarding your last paragraph, that is quite a weird statement. Of course there will always be a blackspot when a virus is new and the AV-companies haven't put out an update for it yet. But does that mean that you shouldn't get an AV, is that what you're saying? Because the AV's won't be able to protect you from future threats? I still prefer to have an AV but have yet to find a good option for Mac, one that is effective(obviously) and one that doesn't hog down your system
I understand. Take a look at ClamXAV, as recommended several times, if the Sentry mechanism is off, it is not intrusive at all, and as far as I know, the some of the Flashback trojans did not install themselves upon detection of that application.

Regarding, if or if not to install AV software, to each his or her own, as there is no definite answer. Everyone has to make up her or his own mind about this. I have made up mine (not to install it and follow the security steps outlined in that FAQ that gets linked almost every time this issue comes up - search, what is that?) and you have made up yours (install it and have peace of mind).
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 03:55 PM   #29
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It is true though.
Yes, you DO. It is irresponsible not to, and to claim that Macs can't get viruses is showing your ignorance. But hey don't trust the guy with his CISSP.
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 04:02 PM   #30
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Yes, you DO. It is irresponsible not to, and to claim that Macs can't get viruses is showing your ignorance. But hey don't trust the guy with his CISSP.
It did not say, that Macs do not get viruses, but as of now, they currently do not get any, and it has been more than decade for those virus writers to not have been successful with this.

Again, running AV is up to everyone's own decision. I, bold I, do not need to run, because I employ the security steps outlined by the FAQ I linked to earlier (feel free to ignore that of course).

I have been using Mac OS X since Mac OS X 10.3 Panther, and guess what, I have not yet contracted one virus (which one anyway?) or any other kind of malware or scareware (aimed at computer illiterate people) in the past eight years. And believe me I tried. I visited sites, that offer pirated applications or movies or music regularly, I even tried those naked sex documentaries video hosting sites several times. And I am still free of malware. How can this happen without AV you ask? (You probably do not, but hey, who am I to judge - ah, yes, I am me.)

PS: Please validate your claim by showing me, that there is any virus for Mac OS X in the wild or that I can get infected with other malware after I employed those security steps I mentioned once or too often for anyone to even recognise them? I can get by without AV, yes, I can, and I have. Just because you do not, does not mean I need to. If you do want to run AV or promote one, feel free to say so. I just said, one does not need to, if one employs those safety things, condoms or so. Ah, I am getting tired of this. These discussions lead nowhere. You have your view, I have my view, I do not budge, and you do not too.

Just let it leave it that and enjoy our real lives. Have a good whatever you enjoy.

Last edited by simsaladimbamba; Dec 26, 2012 at 04:08 PM. Reason: toned down myself, this is not the place afterall, though I would enjoy a TO
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 04:10 PM   #31
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...PS: Please validate your claim by showing me, that there is any virus for Mac OS X in the wild ..
I would like to see that as well..what Mac OS Virus is active today?
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Old Dec 26, 2012, 07:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by simsaladimbamba View Post
It did not say, that Macs do not get viruses, but as of now, they currently do not get any, and it has been more than decade for those virus writers to not have bees, that offer pirated applications or movies or music regularly,

Just let it leave it that and enjoy our real lives. Have a good whatever you enjoy.
Ditto, but haven't been on a mac that far back. I don't worry about viruses on the Macs. Practice safe computing and common sense.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:19 AM   #33
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That 4 year old article refers to a link to the Apple site which was taken down. Old news that no longer applies.
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What about the Java exploit months ago?
If you practice safe computing as described below, you are protected from that exploit, as well as every other Mac OS X malware that has ever existed in the wild.
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I haven't met anyone, but I will tell you this. Once I heard the Java exploit I rushed to my sister's house to patch her Mac ASAP.
You don't need a patch to protect against the Java exploit. You only need a preference selection in Safari. See below.
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ClamXav wont protect in such a "Zero Day" scenario, however it`s likely to be updated far faster than Apple can move.
No antivirus can protect against a zero day threat, whether on Windows or Mac OS X. The fact is that such threats become news long before the majority of users ever encounter them. You're just as protected from such threats by practicing safe computing (see below) without using 3rd party AV software as you would be with such software.
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Yes, you DO. It is irresponsible not to, and to claim that Macs can't get viruses is showing your ignorance. But hey don't trust the guy with his CISSP.
Macs can get viruses. This is proven in the fact that viruses existed in the wild that affected Mac OS 9 and earlier. However, there has never been a virus in the wild that could affect Mac OS X.

You don't need any 3rd party antivirus app to keep a Mac malware-free, as long as you practice safe computing, as described in the following link. Read the What security steps should I take? section of the Mac Virus/Malware FAQ for tips on practicing safe computing.

If you still want to run antivirus for some reason, ClamXav (which is free) is one of the best choices, since it isn't a resource hog, detects both Mac and Windows malware and doesn't run with elevated privileges.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:25 AM   #34
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That 4 year old article refers to a link to the Apple site which was taken down. Old news that no longer applies.

If you practice safe computing as described below, you are protected from that exploit, as well as every other Mac OS X malware that has ever existed in the wild.

You don't need a patch to protect against the Java exploit. You only need a preference selection in Safari. See below.

No antivirus can protect against a zero day threat, whether on Windows or Mac OS X. The fact is that such threats become news long before the majority of users ever encounter them. You're just as protected from such threats by practicing safe computing (see below) without using 3rd party AV software as you would be with such software.

Macs can get viruses. This is proven in the fact that viruses existed in the wild that affected Mac OS 9 and earlier. However, there has never been a virus in the wild that could affect Mac OS X.

You don't need any 3rd party antivirus app to keep a Mac malware-free, as long as you practice safe computing, as described in the following link. Read the What security steps should I take? section of the Mac Virus/Malware FAQ for tips on practicing safe computing.

If you still want to run antivirus for some reason, ClamXav (which is free) is one of the best choices, since it isn't a resource hog, detects both Mac and Windows malware and doesn't run with elevated privileges.
"What security steps should I take"....

Now, if Windows users took the same security steps relevant to their OS, would they still get viruses?

Isn't the point of anti virus just for that? For people who are not savvy enough to take those security steps?
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:32 AM   #35
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Now, if Windows users took the same security steps relevant to their OS, would they still get viruses?
Yes, they could. That's because a virus can infect and spread without user knowledge or intervention, even if they're practicing those safe computing steps. Read the FAQ link I posted to learn the difference between viruses and other forms of malware.
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Isn't the point of anti virus just for that? For people who are not savvy enough to take those security steps?
Anyone who is savvy enough to use a Mac is savvy enough to follow those security steps. They're not difficult to follow. No antivirus app can guarantee protection if the user is not practicing safe computing. This was clearly illustrated with the MacDefender trojan that no antivirus app detected when it was first encountered, yet those practicing safe computing were completely protected.

On Mac OS X, practicing safe computing without using any 3rd party antivirus app will protect you better than using a 3rd party antivirus app without practicing safe computing.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:41 AM   #36
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Yes, they could. That's because a virus can infect and spread without user knowledge or intervention, even if they're practicing those safe computing steps. Read the FAQ link I posted to learn the difference between viruses and other forms of malware.

No antivirus app can guarantee protection if the user is not practicing safe computing. This was clearly illustrated with the MacDefender trojan that no antivirus app detected when it was first encountered, yet those practicing safe computing were completely protected.
And somehow practicing the same steps in Mac is a guarantee that Mac OS is safe?

Let me tell you something.

Kevin Mitnick the infamous hacker wrote his worm in UNIX.

The latest Stuxnet worm is in UNIX.

Mac is based on UNIX.

The cool UI you see is Apple's magic above the UNIX.

Thinking of which, the iOS which is a derivative of the Mac OS can be jailbroken by visiting just a website. Doesn't say much for security there now, does it?

Any virus app will not detect new viruses(Mac or Windows or Linux) unless its signature is in the database. It takes a few casualties before the virus app is updated.

The myth here propagated by Apple and others is that Mac is safe. On the contrary, Mac's are viewed as safe because hackers don't have an incentive to target a small user base.

If I were writing a virus who do I target? Windows with a 90%+ installation base in all critical industries and businesses or a small percentage of home users?

I have been using MS software since the days of MS DOS and never once was I ever plagued with a virus.

Browser BHO's? Sure, dumped IE when Chrome came along. Of course i had Virus protection software during the entire time.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...n-get-viruses/
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Last edited by krravi; Dec 27, 2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:45 AM   #37
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And somehow practicing the same steps in Mac is a guarantee that Mac OS is safe?

Let me tell you something.

Kevin Mitnick the infamous hacker wrote his worm in UNIX.

The latest Stuxnet worm is in UNIX.

Mac is based on UNIX.

The cool UI you see is Apple's magic above the UNIX.

Any virus app will not detect new viruses(Mac or Windows or Linux) unless its signature is in the database. It takes a few casualties before the virus app is updated.

The myth here propagated by Apple and others is that Mac is safe. On the contrary, Mac's are viewed as safe because hackers don't have an incentive to target a small user base.

If I were writing a virus who do I target? Windows with a 90%+ installation base in all critical industries and businesses or a small percentage of home users?
But the user base is growing, and why in the world did Mac OS 8 and Mac OS 9, with less users than Mac OS X has now, have viruses, real viruses?

That marketshare gebabbel is not really working. And as you can see, Mac OS X is the target of malware, just not viruses. And if someone were to introduce a proper Mac OS X virus, that "hacker" (normally hackers do other stuff, but simplification is bliss) would be a bit famous.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:49 AM   #38
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And somehow practicing the same steps in Mac is a guarantee that Mac OS is safe?
Yes, safe from malware. That's because viruses exist for Windows. They don't exist for Mac OS X.
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Originally Posted by krravi View Post
The myth here propagated by Apple and others is that Mac is safe.
Mac OS X is safe from viruses, since none exist in the wild. Whether any OS is safe from nonexistent future threats is a matter of pure speculation.
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On the contrary, Mac's are viewed as safe because hackers don't have an incentive to target a small user base.
That's nonsense. The market share theory has been debunked countless times. Read a few of the many existing malware threads in this forum for detailed discussions about it.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:55 AM   #39
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Yes, safe from malware. That's because viruses exist for Windows. They don't exist for Mac OS X.

Mac OS X is safe from viruses, since none exist in the wild. Whether any OS is safe from nonexistent future threats is a matter of pure speculation.

That's nonsense. The market share theory has been debunked countless times. Read a few of the many existing malware threads in this forum for detailed discussions about it.
Viruses exist for windows because Windows has been wildly popular since 1995.

Can't say the same for Mac can you? Not debating which is better(Windows 7 is one of the finest OS there is)

As you said, its all speculation. I for one, see that a growing Mac OS user base is nothing but a tempting proposition for hackers.

We shall see...
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 11:57 AM   #40
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Anyone who is savvy enough to use a Mac is savvy enough to follow those security steps. They're not difficult to follow.
I have to disagree with you there. I would really like to see you get my elderly aunt to remember (or even understand how) to turn on Java in Safari when she needs it and turn it off when she is done. And yes there are sites she uses that require Java.

I agree and understand running AV will likely not prevent a virus/malware infection, but for many many users there is some utility in having an AV app that even a week after the infection will pop up and let them know something is not right. They may not even know what is wrong or what to do to fix it, but at least the user is alerted to a problem and can call their nice little nephew (me) for help.

Your standard line of "just practice safe computing" just does not work for a large segment of users out there. Running AV purely as means to alert the user to a problem after the fact can be quite useful for the unsophisticated user.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:01 PM   #41
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Viruses exist for windows because Windows has been wildly popular since 1995.

Can't say the same for Mac can you? Not debating which is better(Windows 7 is one of the finest OS there is)

As you said, its all speculation. I for one, see that a growing Mac OS user base is nothing but a tempting proposition for hackers.

We shall see...
Please explain then, if you haven't ignored it, why Mac OS 8 and Mac OS 9, which had much less users than Mac OS X since the introduction of the iPod and iPhone and Intel Mac, has had more viruses than Mac OS X? Could it be, that marketshare has nothing to do with it and that the underlying system was vulnerable and that Mac OS X is not that easy to break with a virus?

But then again, let's see what comes next, probably the same discussion ad infinitum, as it has already been discussed last year (less Mac OS X users back then), the year before that (again, less Mac OS X users) and the years before that (again, not as many Mac OS X users as today).
Maybe Apple has something going for them, just like with iOS and the absence of viruses, but who knows.

Quote:
Viruses exist for windows because Windows has been wildly popular since 1995.
Viruses for Windows exist because it has been wildly unsecure. A lot changed though, Windows 7 is quite safe nowadays compared to Windows 95 and 98 and ME and 2000 and XP and Vista.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:01 PM   #42
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^^^^
I doubt your elderly aunt would ever need Java. Keep in mind these recommendations are based on experience from users here. And most of us do not use AV but rely on common sense practices. If you need or want more, just follow someone else's recommendation.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:04 PM   #43
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Viruses exist for windows because Windows has been wildly popular since 1995.

Can't say the same for Mac can you?
Then explain why more than 11 years ago there were viruses for Mac OS 9 and earlier versions, when the Mac market share and installed base were much much smaller than they are now. Now that the Mac market share and installed base has increased significantly (50+ million), the number of Mac viruses has decreased.. to zero. There is significantly less instances of Mac malware in the wild, even though Macs are more popular than ever. Your market share theory doesn't hold water.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:28 PM   #44
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^^^^
I doubt your elderly aunt would ever need Java. Keep in mind these recommendations are based on experience from users here. And most of us do not use AV but rely on common sense practices. If you need or want more, just follow someone else's recommendation.
I explicitly said in my post she does need Java. I can link you to all the goofy game sites and so on she likes if you want.

My point is that the statement "Anyone who is savvy enough to use a Mac is savvy enough to follow those security steps. They're not difficult to follow." is not even close to reality for many users.

Go hang out at the Apple Store one afternoon and watch who is buying many of these machines. My local Apple Store is jam packed with sweet little old ladies who would not in a million years be able to follow the "safe computing" steps provided.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:34 PM   #45
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^^^
Sorry missed that part. My only point was that for many, safe computing is the only AV needed. For others that need more, there are other recommendations to follow. I do agree with you that not every Mac owner can follow the safe computing recommendations posted here.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 12:39 PM   #46
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I explicitly said in my post she does need Java. I can link you to all the goofy game sites and so on she likes if you want.

My point is that the statement "Anyone who is savvy enough to use a Mac is savvy enough to follow those security steps. They're not difficult to follow." is not even close to reality for many users.

Go hang out at the Apple Store one afternoon and watch who is buying many of these machines. My local Apple Store is jam packed with sweet little old ladies who would not in a million years be able to follow the "safe computing" steps provided.
You are so right.

My sisters who is not computer savvy switched to a Mac Mini on my insistence. She just uses MS Office for Mac, Chrome to surf the net and print documents and such. She would have no clue if anything went awry.

I remote into her machine once in a while to make sure things are fine.

----------

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Then explain why more than 11 years ago there were viruses for Mac OS 9 and earlier versions, when the Mac market share and installed base were much much smaller than they are now. Now that the Mac market share and installed base has increased significantly (50+ million), the number of Mac viruses has decreased.. to zero. There is significantly less instances of Mac malware in the wild, even though Macs are more popular than ever. Your market share theory doesn't hold water.
Strangely the same logic applies to Windows as well. It has matured and many have switched from IE to Chrome or what not. BHO's the main culprit in IE is waning.

Never underestimate the diligence and smarts of a determined hacker.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 02:10 PM   #47
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Strangely the same logic applies to Windows as well.
That only serves to further prove my point that market share has little or nothing to do with the presence of Mac OS X malware in the wild.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:58 PM   #48
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That only serves to further prove my point that market share has little or nothing to do with the presence of Mac OS X malware in the wild.
I was talking about he reduction of Malware as time progresses rather than the market share.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 04:20 PM   #49
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Are there any active virus/malware floating around today that can infect Mac Users?
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 04:23 PM   #50
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Are there any active virus/malware floating around today that can infect Mac Users?
Did you read the thread? That's been discussed quite a bit.
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